After looking closely at an old property survey, and taking some measurements of my own, I may have some major issues. As much as 12′ of yard that I currently maintain could actually be my neighbors property. Based on their fence, they are in adverse possession of 12′ of their neighbors yard. Convenient.
When we bought the place, we were clearly told that the fence does and always had represented the property boundary. Also we have discussed landscaping plans with the neighbor in question, for the land in question, on several occasions with no objection.
It appears that the city tax assessments are based on the land description on the survey but also that the assumed property lines as described by the fence is not in question. We personally haven’t been here long enough (20 yrs) to legally assume the property without question, but the assumption has been in place for more than 20 yrs.
I am confused! Any perspective out there?
-J
Replies
I would talk to a lawyer right away.
If the survey notes the corners of the metes and bounds with the abreveation "I.R." that's short for "Iron Rod." You some times see "found iron rod" noted, as well. These are typically 36" long and 3/4 to 1' in diameter, and are driven flush.
One nice thing about iron rods and "magnetic nails," you can find them with a metal detector--this is something the surveyors do. If the markers have moved, or cannot be set on the actual turning points, that's noted on the survay drawing.
So, do you know someone with a metal detector? It might be that the fences are closer to--or further from--right.
Now, as to adverse possession, near as I can tell, it varies with every single authority you find. The legal description, the metes and bound that define the property are generally what defines the property legally, if such things get to court. Fences, buildings, trees, irate neighbors notwithstanding. Generally. Mostly. Tax, title, and license extra. Dealer cost may not relfect actual printed invoice. Your mileage may vary.
My neighbor hood was platted into "lots" when it was subdivided in 1950. Not one property actually is "bounded" by those lots--which is peachy at closing, as you get dunned for surveying two lots (and then you get a refund for the discount for "single trip charge"--go figure).
Now, back in the 50's, they put up chainlink fencing. The persons who did the work generally only got "close" to property lines, and they split through tree lines, or picked one side of a tree line or another, and called the mess "even." Shoot, I have a privately-made street half on my property and half on my neighbor's. But, I pay taxes on it all, even the bits in neighbor's yards.
Here, in my part of Texas, in my specific town, all I need do is have a surveyor come and mark and record the 5-6 specific areas so that they can all be legally described. Then, I can make some land deals with my neighbors & the City, and I have to put in for replatting the property (as do the neighbors on either side; City bills them selves). Just need a couple hours of attorney time, survey crew for the day, and their platting fees, and the City replat--about $4800-5300 in my case, drive-away. I need wiring well in advance of that, and plumbing after the wiring, then insulation after both of those--it's waiting.
How old is the 'old survey'> Was it prior to the purchase of your house? Was there a survey completed when you bough the house? Did you use a realestate atty for the sale?
OK...
Since posting last night, I have found a more current (conflicting) survey that shows my property line as was described verbally [by all parties including the neighbor] at the sale three years ago. It was stamped by a registered surveyer and a reciept for filling with the city is stapled to several copies.
Wisconsin Real Estate Laws for adverse possesion say 10 yrs is sufficient under color of title and that 20 yrs is required without color of title. The more current survey is from '93. There is no date on the old survey other than a note that it was micro filmed in '88. It could be 50-75 yrs old.
Im confident that if ever contested, the property that I currently maintain within a fenced border and described by a stamped survey would be upheld. The only problem I see is that the assesors office records show that the total square footage of my lot is prox 1000 sq ft less. 1000 sq ft is the difference in the two surveys.
Is my rationale valid? what kind of problems am I looking at from a back taxes standpoint?
-J
Edited 7/12/2007 8:28 am by joemilw
Depends, in most jurisdictions the city/county are responsible for assessing based on the recorded description and assessors evaluation. And, they can't whack you for their mistake. The neighbor who is paying the taxes on the property might be able to get his excess payments back though.
It is kind of like being tied to your lump sum price in a contract, even though you loose money on the job. You set the value you would do the work for, and have to live by it.
But this varies by location.
"And, they can't whack you for their mistake. The neighbor who is paying the taxes on the property might be able to get his excess payments back though. "And in general they can only go back a few years or not at all unless they protested when paying in the first place..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
After "walking off" my two immeadiate nieghbor's lots, thier property assesments correctly describe the overall area of thier "assumed" lot lines. They also have fences surrounding thier yards. It seems like where ever the discrepency exists, neither side of me is getting the shaft on their property. Someone down the block likely lost some land at some point in the past.
I havent looked up the entire block to cross reference, nor do I have any survey information for the rest of the block save the seemingly incorrect "old" survey.
I am inclined to let this issue rest but in the back of my head I know that I could be reassesed for an extra 1000sq ft. Or does it make more sense to deal with this now as the opposite neighbor's (same sized lot) land description is accurately 1000 sq ft more. The assesed value is only $1200 more.
I forsee a major can of worms being opened...
-J
Hey Joe,I've got a similar situation on my house, although it doesn't wash out on the other side of the property.From what I've read of your situation, your 'property' matches the square footage you purchased, just not quite where one of the surveys showed it to be. Someone in your neighborhood is probably short a 1000 sf, but you don't know who.For the life of me, I can't imagine *why* you would want to bring this up with the TA office. For you, there's no net gain except additional scrutiny from the TA office. For most of your neighbors, there is no gain either, just pain. For one of your neighbors, they *might* get a reduction in their property taxes but it's almost guaranteed they won't receive back credits.I chose to let my issue be as I've got a good relationship with my neighbor and I really don't see the point in stirring up needless problems. If I were you, I think I'd follow the same route. You've got nothing to gain and lots to potentially lose.Glen
The real can of worm will become apparant if you ever try to sell the property and the buyer gets a survey done. Probably best to talk it over with your atty now rather than then. Adverse possession is one of those things that vary a lot depending on where the property is. It can get pretty complicated, too.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Yeah, you want to get it clarified eventually. Talk to a lawyer, your neighbors, and the county, probably in that order.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I have an "official" agreement with a neighbor indciatign that we don't know where the boundry is.I have a survey that indicates that he is 12 ft over at one corner. His say he is only over 7 ft. A previous owner just had a mortage survey that had a "assumed property line" marked on it.It affects the road frontage and that 12 ft (or even 7) would have been very helpful.But the place was developed in 1928 and I suspect that his where the telelphone pole was placed that is arournd the assumed line. And the house was was built in 1935. Mine in 79. So they is not much option of getting it back.But that is not uncommon here. The road is also off. The neighbor across the street's corner is in the middle of the road.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yeah, this is why they have adverse possession laws. When everyone's been assuming for decades that the property line is at point x and it's really (according to records) at point y, it's better/fairer all around to leave it at x.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I totally agree with the "why rock the boat" sentiment... however the relationship with the neighbor in question has flip-flopped from friendly to strained to tense because of a pile of construction debri in my yard. Since we moved in, there has been on going renovation and rather than rent a dumpster 2-3 times for a long project, i stacked removed lumber, roofing and carpet in a back corner of my lot over last winter. She called neighborhood services on me and i was forced to clean up the "blight" and expend time/ money vs. handle it all one time two months later.
The one consession is that if a huge stink is made, none of the structures I own (house/ garage/ shed) are in conflict with either survey... save for setbacks. Also the affect on other properties in the neighborhood would be widspread. If I were to assume the extra 12ft under adverse possesion laws the annual tax burden would anount to about 25$.
I have 2-3 more projects planned over the next couple of years and want all my ducks in a row before proceeding. I dont necassarily want to bring more parties into the disscussion (city, neighbors) but am planning on disscussing this with a laywer so that there are no surprises later on.
Hey Joe,As a friendly suggestion, see if you can "make nice" with the neighbor that called up city services on you. I think that's really the core of the issue here. Yeah, you've got property line issues but the strain with the neighbors is due to a disagreement about how to handle the construction debris.I would go to the neighbor, apologize for creating an "eyesore" and ask them what they think is an acceptable amount of time to leave something out. Try putting yourself in their shoes. Yes, they're happy you're improving the house and bringing up neighborhood property values. But staring at trash for an extended period of time gets really old, really quick.See if you can find a place to store the debris that's out of their sight line. Or find a way to disguise it (thinking temporary shelter here). Yeah, it's a pain in your azz. But you're going to have to live with those neighbors for a while. See if you can get things back to neutral with them if nothing else.A convenience to you that strains things with the neighbors is a false convenience. It'll cost you more in the long run. If nothing else, you'll appreciate their tolerance until you get the other projects done and out of the way. And so you can get more time in so you can shift the property lines.Just a different thought on what's going on. That conversation may save you a bunch of hassle right now that you'd rather not deal with.Glen
You do not want to get near litigation on this issue. You should look at the different surveys closely -- a 'location' survey is very different from a 'line survey'. Also, tax records are not to be relied on for boundaries. Note that tax assessments are not based on the square footage of the lot, but on the use of the the lot (mil rates are a different matter). A 3/4 acre residential building lot is going to worth about the same as a 1 acre lot next to it because the value is in the ability to legally put one house on the each lot.
I would talk to a good, professional surveyor (that carries malpractice insurance) and that works in the county where you live and who is familiar with back surveys and local issues first and based on what he finds, only then talk with an attorney.
Dan Carroll
As a surveyor, it is my opinion that nothing will be resolved without a professional survey of both lots in question.
Indivividual surveys can differ because different points may be used by different surveyors, although 12' in a small lot seems excessive.
If at all possible, keep it out of court, and don't rely on any lawyer telling you that "adverse posession" gives you title. In Texas, it's very, very difficult to prove. This is a "hook" that many in real estate law use to run up hours.
As CapnMac suggested, rent or borrow a metal detector and find all the points on both lots, measure between them, and see if they agree to your, and your adjoiners satisfaction. If not, then hire a surveyor and split the cost between you.
"rent or borrow a metal detector and find all the points on both lots"My A2 survey states that Iron Pipes are used along with a concrete monument at the starting/ending point. Are the Iron Pipes I have the same as what CapnMac is referring to? I believe I'm going to be facing a property line dispute in the near future and I'd like to do a little investigating on my own prior to hiring a surveyorThanks
We used galvanized iron pipes, ususlly 3/4" salvaged and cut into 2' lengths. Now days, surveyors use 1/2" rebar with a plastic cap identifying the company and possibly giving a point # corresponding with the field survey, to assist future surveys.
A concrete monument is usually a pipe or pin with concrete poured around it about 1' or so. Older concrete monuments had a copper or brass pin, usually 1/4", so they wouldn't corrode like the steel would.
Try to involve your neighbor by assuring him that a correct, common line will benefit both parties in the long run. In any dispute over division lines, the lawyers are the only ones that win, and win big...
I'd ~like~ to discuss this upcoming project with said neighbor, but something tells me to hold off. At least for the time being. I plan to install 170 shrubs or trees next to my 500' property line to help prevent any further damage they and their guests have caused. At one time there were wooden stakes with ribbons marking the corner points but now they're gone. For years there has never any problem with this neighbor or property lines. Now it appears that he has decided to move the property line over by about 10 or 15' by mowing it. I never said anything since after all he's only MOWING it. Unless that is meant to be an indication that he is claiming ownership? In addition his guests seem to think my property is a parking lot. We're talking about 25+ vehicles at any given time. Thank you for the explanation. Now I need to find a place to rent a metal detector and go hunting. My apologies to the OP for sidetracking his thread with this post
Call a local surveyor and see where he buys/rents equipment. You might even be able to rent one from him. They're usually about $5 a day with a $500 deposit on your credit card. Get a good 100' chain and a couple of plumb bobs. Put yer wife to work holding one end...
Good suggestion, thanks again
What measurements of your own did you take to figure that your property line is off by 12 feet?
Yeah, talk to a lawyer. Generally, if some period of time has elapsed (on the order of 10 years, depending on state and specifics of the case), the "assumed" boundaries take precedence over the surveyed boundaries, based on "adverse possession". But the details are nitty enough that you need a good real-estate lawyer.
Do this BEFORE you do any obvious surveying.
8 years ago i bought the lot next door to me, I had a survey only he went back 4 main monuments and found out 2 streets were off 30 feet, All the other surveyors only went to one, No body ever picked this up, being as it was front and back they changed the street setbacks on both sides, When i lived back east our street came up short on the lots, Seems the first guy built where he thought the lines were, He messed up the whole street but nobody caught it till the last lots were left, The people all went in and bought the last lot
From my recent experience in a "border" dispute, my advice is to get a new survey. The cost may be sufficient enough to thwart the neighbor from doing the same. Then get your lawyer to send a letter to the other party describing the dispute and your standing, noting the recent survey. Their recourse would be to get their own survey and go to court. Wanting that, you've won. Cost to me, about $800. Value to having my property and piece of mind, priceless.