Okay, now that I’ve got your attention …
I’ve seen the competing threads and makes me kind of shake my head. Isn’t there room for everyone here? We all are interested in the same stuff enough to be here on the Fine Homebuilding message board right?
I mean, there are guys who have hobbies that do ’em real well even though they are by no means pros. Guys who work on cars for hobbies who make nice hot rods that actually go. Guys who golf a lot and have talent can become scratch golfers. Now, they’re still not Tiger Woods, but they’re not incompetent either. And they know they’re not Tiger Woods; and for that matter, most every other pro golfer isn’t Tiger either! And on a given day, our amateur scratch golfer might even tie a pro for a round on his home course.
Anyway, I’ll admit to having lots of respect for the pros I’ve hired through the years including the team that did my large rennovation last year. A few times, I’ve had requests or suggestions that some pro or other seemed genuinely to appreciate. Now maybe it was just blowin smoike up a customer’s . . . but it leads me to a question for you pros:
I’ve read plenty from many of you about what idiots DIYs are. You got any stories about where a DIYer actually caught something important – had a good idea about how to do something (an idea that you hadn’t thought of yet) – or otherwise was helpful? Hearing about some events like this, might foster some goodwill around here. Just a thought.
Replies
I don't have any stories because I've never hired a pro and I'm not a pro. However, we are all diy'ers in some aspect. We're not all professional chefs, gardners, carpenters, or mechanics. In any discipline, there are pros who can do better jobs. Of course, there are also really good diy'ers.
I can understand how it would be annoying for a homeowner to micromanage a pro and criticize the pros work. If they're so good or knowledgeable, then why don't they do it? That's a very valid gripe.
The gripe I don't understand is the "had to fix another homeowner blunder." It seems to me that if the HO is willing to pay you your requested rate, then why bitch about. I go to work everyday and have to handle issues that I don't want to...but I'm paid to handle these issues. I don't have to take the job if I don't want to. I'm free to find different work if I really want to.
This is a tiresome subject that comes up here from time to time. All you'll be inviting is the frustrated low self esteemed from either side of the argument who will battle it out with tired worn out same-o-same-o cliche's.
The reality is there are dummies on both sides. One will say they're a pro because they own a truck with their name on it. The other side says the can do it because the saw it done in 30 minutes on TV and it doesn't look that tough.
I did my first paying carpentry job when I was 14 over 38 years ago. As carpentry goes I'd say I'm one of the best and I'm pretty good at a lot of other things. But as a heat and air, plumber or electrician I'm a Do It Yourselfer just like the rest of you. I got the same gripes about price and the same illusions I can do it myself 'cause I saw it on TV like the rest of you.
This BS has to stop. The purpose of this forum is to provide insite and help. But most of all I feel it's to provide fellowship.
All that said,
The first rounds on me buddy.
Edited 7/30/2005 10:52 pm ET by JAGWAH
Interesting post.
The extensive skills and knowledge of a veteran in the trades can seldom be matched by a DIY'er. On the other hand, there is a DIY explosion going on. The DIY media blitz (including Taunton) and marketing of tools and materials has produced an ever-growing segment of the population more educated and equiped to produce quality work. It is a given that few DIYer will produce masterpieces (like the golf analogy). Most DIY'ers what to work with their hands, learn something new, save some money and produce adequate results. Usually they succeed.
The Pros have good reason to be offended when a DIYer assumes that a trade can be mastered in an afternoon. Trades are not appreciated enough in our society and this just adds insult to injury. Some Pros mock HO offers to "help," knowing that the "help" will slow things down and may reduce quality or compromise safety.
I have mentioned it here before, there are ways to involve the Pros and DIYers in the same project. I am a trim carpenter and a consultant to DIYer's. I am usually just hired to do the work. If someone wants to learn with me, I charge more (an extra $25/ hour) as a consultant. I make more money and the DIYer can learn some valuable tricks of the trade. Sometimes just help get them started and they finish on their own. In other cases, the HO says, "thank you for the lesson, why don't you take it from here."
If more contactors were willing to work with DIYers, the big boxes would not have such a monopoly. They take the positive approach, "You can do it, we can help." Most contractors say (or think), "I can do it, you can screw it up." There is a huge DIY market and most contractors try to avoid it, I welcome it.
This thread is where the people holding the middle ground belong, right?
Taking on DIYer's as consultant is a very interesting concept, you must have the mentality and patience. As you said if they are willing to pay for your service I don't see why not.
I see that those two threads are tie at 24 a piece and I have read through a few of those posts, can't see the reason for all the bickering going on.
Most DIYer's know their limits. I do consulting for these folks only about 5% of the time. I am clear that it will take longer and cost more for us to work together, but if they plan on doing more of this kind of work in the future, on their own, it may be worth it. This weeds out the cheapskates and leaves me working only with serious DIYer's.Most DIYer's are amazed at all of the details that make for a Pro-quality job. Working with these few clients each year is good for my business and good for the reputation of the trades. I have been hired to do additional jobs this past month by two of my DIY customers from earlier this year (one had me install cabinets at their office after I helped them with their kitchen & the other had me tile their entry after they "helped" me tile their kitchen. I don't bid working on DIY projects, it is strictly by the hour and at a higher rate (this extra pay is for patience and trade secrets).I used to be a consultant/analyst/contractor in the analytical chemistry field and was a high school science teacher for seven years. I love learning and teaching. I much prefer one highly motivated adult apprentice to 30 teenagers who would rather be socializing. I left teaching and scientific careers because I am too kinetic to sit in a classroom or cubical. I have to be up and moving. I sympathize with the kids who don't want to be sitting there (never had $ in the budget for enough field trips or activities to suite me). I am thrilled to have found a career as a craftsman and enjoy sharing my skills and knowledge when I get the chance.Contractors with an aptitude for it, have a golden opportunity to make more money, generate referrals, and good will.
That's an excellent summary of why the big boxes are selling so many services these days. Everyone likes to feel empowered, and the big box "You can do it!" advertising plays on that need. As a DIY fixing up an old house over the past three years, one of the best sales pitches I've ever heard from a tradesman was "Would you like to see this work finished in one month, or are you going to be playing with it six months from now?" It was a cold splash of reality for Mr. DIY, and he got the job. Don't just sell a service, sell time.
I think, just like with contractors, DIYers cover a wide range. I truly wish I could find someone to do the work I want done on my old house but in my area there just aren't people who will do that kind of work and even if there were, the low prices for homes makes spending that much money on things that nobody else will ever see doesn't make sense.
For example, there is no way I could find someone to paint the house the way I want it painted - there is just no way they could spend the time that I spend scraping, sanding, priming, replacing nails, etc. Or there is the electrical - I am running conduit because I am going to put Icynene in the walls. I am just pulling the wires and the service entrance to a local electrician - we're both happy. I hired a mason for the chimney, a roofer for the roof, sheet metal guy for the flashing, etc, but I stripped the old shingles.
Part of the problem for me is that I may very well change my mind in mid-stream and that is guaranteed to make a contractor CRAZY!
Interesting post... and my first question relates to a detail that isn't related to the overall thread parent (sorry!) So, you're running conduit for all electrical connections because you're using Icynene? May I ask why? We used Icynene and Corbond throughout the house and didn't put anything in conduit. Is it a requirement that I wasn't aware of?
Instead of using conduit, I simply oversized the conductors relative to their expected loads to ensure that they stay cool even when installed surrounded by insulation. Thus, every room has one dedicated circuit for outlets but also shares a lighting circuit with another room. The outlet circuits are fed by AWG12 wiring, the lighting circuits get by with AWG14. This was far less difficult to get installed than running conduit, IMHO.
Coming back to the overall topic: My house was re-built using pros almost exclusively. Where I felt competent enough to help, I would. Thus, there is a good amount of rebar in the basement walls that I placed to help the basement contractor, for example. However, I recognize that I lack the experience in many fields to do a job as competently as the contractors that graced our house with their fine work.
Thus, while I did a lot of research to come up with 30 pages of specifications, that was but a rough guide when the time came to sit down with the trades to hash out the best solution. Here, my previous research paid off since I would be able to speak the same language and see the benefits/drawbacks of alternative solutions to the ones I had specified.
Oh, I don't really have a good reason for running the conduit other than being able to run new wire after the icynene is in place. It doesn't make economic sense, or probably any sense at all, but that's what I want so I'm willing to do it.
I couldn't justify having paying someone to do it but, as senseless as it seems, it's worth it to me to do it.
I too do a lot of research that helps me make informed decisions about what I want and to help me ask the right questions. Example: On my electric service I want 200A to the Carriage House and 200A to the house. I read several wiring books and saw different ways of accomplishing that. I decided the way I preferred and went with the electrician who suggested doing it the way I wanted it done (without my prompting).
"That's an excellent summary of why the big boxes are selling so many services these days. Everyone likes to feel empowered, and the big box "You can do it!"Many contractors seem to enjoy bashing the big boxes without stopping to think about how they have become so successful. I don't like some things about these stores myself (and I get a bunch of work from them). We can learn from them. They have good marketing ideas and are DIY focused.The DIY market is not my primary focus, but I think contractors should think about how to exploit this huge segment of the market. Instead they treat it like the plague. I'm sure it is not for everyone. For some, adding "Consultant" to their biz card might add to their bottom line...it has worked for me.
I have seen bad jobs done by so called pros and bad jobs done by home owners.
Yes there is room hear for every one and this is a place to vent, learn, have some deep discussions, or just read the discussions.
I have been reading here for about 3 or so years and have enjoyed it very much. I have not posted very often as I have not had time, but I have learnt some stuff on how to do things and how not to.
Thanks to all who have given me some insight and who haven't.
i'm not in business to service DIY.
No sense in bashing what some find an enjoyable hobby, skill or a way to get something done on their terms and at their budget. My hat's off to all who give it a go!
In fact, I've found there seems to be two consistant requirements that make up my usual, well paying client...........
1. They decided to hire a GC based only on cost rather than the level of quality delievered................never again!
2. They had done a project or two as DIYers and....surprise!.........never again!
REFORMED or RETIRED DIYers make the very best clients.
In my other thread I wasn't intending on sounding "bashing" of the DIYer. I think it's great if a DIYer gives it a try. In my same post I acknowledged that I began as a DIYer and finally refined my skills enough to ascend to another level. If you were referring to my thread in saying you've seen posts lately bashing the DIYer thenI must apologize for it never was intended to be that. I merely wanted to relate a story about a DIYer who just couldn't seem to understand he's over his head, and in the long run my opinion is he devalued his home instead of improved it.
Further, I mentioned some code violations. If one wants to DIY that's all fine and good, but we all agree on a building code for good reasons and not to stereotype, but I would wager most DIYers don't care much about what is code.
I tend to agree with much of what you said, however in this post. I wouldn't be where I am today if I wasn't a DIYer and others helped inspire confidence and know-how to me to become more.
I would also agree that as long as the HO is willing to pay the rate to fix a good up of theirs, that there is no room to bicker on it. The problem here, though, often is that the HO may not fully understand the extent of their goof, and when they see it'll cose $2000 to fix what might have only cost them $1000 if it were done right, then you're in an unfortunate situation where they often feel you're taking advantage of them.
If I could help DIYers at all, I'd strongly suggest they be realistic in their skills to not get in over their heads, and to understand what code requirements they should be concerned with meeting. If they wish to go above and beyond the limits of their skills then I'd suggest they seek a GC willing to work with the guy and hour or two, paid of course, to help the HO at least develop the basic skill needed to do the above and beyond task. Most DIYers wanna save money as well as enjoy the challenge. But it does irk me with todays DIY shows, I think they're breeding a level of confidence not realistic, and that it fosters people not being realistic in what their skills really are.
Yeah, in my contribution to the other post I wasn't trying to bash DIY either - I am one; one with limits, some hard-earned judgements and a few funny stories that were worth the price.
Whether someone tries it themselves or hires in, if they really don't have a feel for what the work entails and what costs/time can swell to, it can be an ugly surprise.
Ihave one. The other day a DIYer was helping me with a tub drain. Seeing the impossibility of dismantling the drain assembly without coming in from below the ceiling, the DIYer had an idea I did not think of. His idea worked, I admitted my inability to have conceived the same thought myself and thanked him for saving me a lot of extra BS work I didn't want to do anyways just to fix a tub drain. Sometimes two heads are better than one.
Are you going to share the idea? Or would you submit it to "Tips and Techniques"...you could get a nice reward, maybe.ciao for niao
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
The goal should be to eliminate poor construction, whether the person holding the hammer is doing it for self or for pay.
The more points-of-view on this forum, the better.
Pro vs DIY? Good and bad on both sides. Simon Cowell said what amazed him most was the American Idol contestants who have absolutely no ability to sing and yet believe in their hearts that they possess a gift, that they are the next American Idol.
The same can be said for DIY's and Pros. The old saying,"You can't buy experience." applies, but there is also no replacement for raw, natural talent.
Whenever I see shoddy workmanship I think back to what Simon said. I call it American Idol Carpentry.
One time I was finishing up an attic remodel and told the customer ( aDIYer) that I was definatly going to pick up a six pack at speedway on the way home. He pointed out that 7-11 had them on sale for fity cents cheaper. That helped.
Expert since 10:00 a.m.
http://www.hay98.com/
I'm sorry if I started a riot. I was just riled up at what SEEMED to be a slam thread on homeowners doing their own work. Pyro has since said that that was not his intent, but the thread itself seemed to take on that kind of slant as more & more people piled on this guy.
Every single one of us has that in them. Some may think their work looks better than it really does, others may think their face looks better than it does, others may think they are smarter than they really are, the list goes on. We are all blind to our shortcomings about SOMETHING.
For what it's worth, as a dedicated DIYer reading the previous posts on this thread, I have been greatly encouraged to learn that there are fewer trade neanderthals on this board than I thought based on other similar discussions. You represent your profession well.thanks.