I live in Gwinnett County, Georgia. Yesterday, I was visiting a friend and somehow the discussion got onto basement finishing and being that neither he nor I were licensed electricians wondered about the frequency of and placement allowance for electrical outlets within a home.
So, this morning I go up and noticed that while most electrical outlets in my home are not under a window, I do have a couple that are. Also, the maximum distance between two outlets in the same room without a break in a wall (i.e. a door or window) is nine (9) feet.
Ok, now I know what my county inspectors are like (could use 3X the manpower) and I knew what the builder’s superintendent was like (non-attentive, which is why he was fired after 3-4 years of bad construction), so I wonder about whether any violations in my home were possible.
Anyone working as an electrician in GA know whether or not electrical outlets under a window, and the greatest unbroken wall-run can be between sequential outlets can be?
Replies
Ok, NEC says 12' spacing in non-kitchen/bath areas. I Googled it and read from several results to this. Of course, Georgia/Gwinnett county could have amended this to more restrictive condition.
Here is a good summary of all of the numbers.http://www.codecheck.com/pg27_28electrical.html#rough
bill-
What are they saying about the '44 ft' under the 'cable'...
[NEC99'] {NEC 2002}
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Rough
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Appliances
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Disconnecting Means
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Closet
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General-Purpose Circuits
Receptacles
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Cable
Romex¯ {NM Cable] Not in {Type I or II} buildings [>3 floors except 1- & 2-family} .............................................................................[336-5a1]{334.10} Min. 4in. sheathing into box, max. 1in. . . . . . . . . . .[370-17c], local]{314.20} Protect from physical damage . . . . . .[336-6b][334.15] Nail plate req'd if cable < 14in. to stud face ... F-e13 [300-4a,d] {300.4AD]} Secure <=12in. of box and at least every 44 ft. .[336-18] {334.30} Clamp cable to box with approved clamp, EXC .[370-17b,c]{314.17B,C} No clamp OK if single-gang plastic box & secured <=8in...........................................................[370-17cX] {314.17Cx} Clamp listed for 1 or 2 cables max. {not chase
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
I think that's a misprint -- the cable is to be "secured" every 4.5 feet. "Securing" can be done by stapling, running the cable through a hole in a stud or joist, or similar means. An exception is allowed for cables "fished" through enclosed areas.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
That was my first impression too but I like to ask to be sure. Thanks
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Don't know Georgia, but have a nodding familiarity with the NEC. Yes, outlets can be placed under windows. You're right about the 12 ft. spacing, but you must also have them within 6 ft. of each side of any door. If you've got a big bank of sliders, you may have to add floor outlets to get the required spacing. For those purposes, outlets must be less than 4 ft. from the floor. Also, within 2 ft. (if memory serves) of bathroom sinks, and within 2 ft. of each side of kitchen sinks.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
The only time you need receptacles in the floor is if the sliders are non-opening, therefore they are large windows. An opening slider is a door, and there needs to be a receptacle within 6 feet of each side of the door. But, there is the any wall wider than 2 feet needs a receptacle. So two sliders with a fixed section of 24" or more between them technically needs a floor receptacle. The kitchen rule is a receptacle within 2 feet of any point along the back splash of a counter top, so yes within 2 feet of the sink, or any other break in the countertop (end, stove, whatever). Also any countertop 12" or wider needs a receptacle.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
Thanks for the clarification.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
One way to envision the basic rule is that you should be able to place a floor lamp with a 6-foot cord (plus a few inches more for slack) anywhere around the perimeter of the room and have the cord reach an outlet (without crossing a doorway). This means 12 feet between outlets, and no more than six feet from doorway edge to the first outlet.
However, there are all sorts of exceptions -- short walls between doorways don't need an outlet, hallways don't need as many, etc. And of course kitchens and bathrooms have a whole separate set of rules.
There are no restrictions in the NEC (that I'm aware of) with regard to placing an outlet under a window. In fact, it's always nice to have a "Christmas tree outlet" under or very close to a picture window.
Of course, state or local authorities can override NEC, and local inspectors can "interpret" the rules in strange ways.
happy?
I like a Christmas Candle receptacle under every window on the front of the house controlled by one switch. But, it is too much money for most customers! And then there is the "why doesn't this receptacle work?" questions the rest of the year!Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
There is no requirement for recepts in basements.
Depending on what you write on the plans for finishing the basement you may or may not have to comply with the 6' rule (as it often is called).
An "unfinished" basement requires one receptacle. Likewise a garage.
>> So, this morning I go up and noticed that while most electrical outlets in my home are not under a window, I do have a couple that are. << I'm gonna guess that the house was wired overhead, and placing receptacles under windows would have meant additional drilling for the electrician. Re the ones that are under a window they may have had to be placed there to satisfy the 6' rule without putting more outlets than the minimum in the room. That's just a guess. To get a more definitive answer, you would have to tell us how the floor systems are constructed - 2x10, webbed floor trusses, slab floor crawl space, etc.
It should be noted that there's nothing in the code that says you can't have MORE outlets than one every 12 feet. The incremental per-outlet cost is small, and it's often worthwhile to put in a few extras, if you're building for yourself.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Boy am I glad to hear you say that! I'm wiring my shop, and along one wall I have a two boxes every other stud; one at 12" from floor and one at 48".....every other box in the line is a different circuit in case I'm working with more than one tool at a time.....everybody has been giving me cr*p about having so many outlets, but I figured the wall is only going to be open once..... One of these days I'll get some pictures posted. --Ken
Knowing the code is one thing and I know you put that out there for the general population here at BT. Knowing how production electricians do business is something else. The electrician I use charges $35 per outlet extra - the HO gets charged $50. It's a pretty standard price. Most HOs will go for it if they want a few extra outlets. To be fair and build good customer relationships the way I do it is if they want an outlet in a particular spot, we see if we can work it into the 6' rule, 2' rule, or which ever one applies. If not - they pay. I definitely have extra outlets in my house - for example, like 6 in the garage including a 220v.
As far as the way production electricians do business, on a house I recently completed, when they roughed it in they put in a 125a service for a 2000 sq ft house - which I thought was rather skimpy - let me call it cheap - I said something about it and they showed me the numbers where it was more than adequate - never mind there was only 1 slot left in the box... Then - I got the rough-in bill they had added $225 to the quoted price because the breaker panel was remotely located from the meter base. I told the head guy that it was on the plans he priced out and I wasn't gonna pay for it. His response - "OK, fine, we will get it back on the next house"... Don't get me wrong, this is a good company who is very predictable at meeting their scheduling commitments, very few callbacks, and their prices are good - but they definitely charge for every little thing that is extra. They crack the whip on their guys too... the lead mechanic on a truck gets any re-inspect fees subtracted from his check... This company does a large volume of business though, and I can guarantee no man ever goes without a full 40hr week and they get some benefits.
This house is an unfinished basement w/stubs for future plumbing. The ceiling above is comprised of 1.75"x11-7/8" Boise-Cascade I-joists for the house's first floor. I've lived in this thing for ~5 years now. I originally placed boxes for the convenience of the rooms' intended functions. Now, I re-thought about it and decided to make it to, or in excessive, of code. Thinking future-owners, here.
Matt said:
"As far as the way production electricians do business, on a house I recently completed, when they roughed it in they put in a 125a service for a 2000 sq ft house - which I thought was rather skimpy - let me call it cheap"Wow!!!I have not seen a house built here in central VA with less than a 200 amp panel in over 15 years!!! I have never installed less than a 200 amp panel, even on a barn. Lots of extra pole spaces in that one. Here the POCO supplies the meter base and the wire to the meter base, so the only extra expense for the homeowner is the panel price and service entrance cable (a few feet usually). I have done quite a few 400 amp services, two 200 amp panels, for more pole spaces and heat pump loads. Again, one extra panel and a few feet of service entrance cable (plus labor!).Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
I hear ya. I was shocked. One thing that may have effected it was that it had gas heat, hot water & range and no garage. Question: if it had a "gas pack", does that mean the AC runs on gas? Don't know, and it seems counter intuative, but the house I grew up in had a gas AC unit.
BTW - I have 400a in my house too.
"Question: if it had a "gas pack", does that mean the AC runs on gas? "There where some gas powered absorbtion AC maybe 20 years ago, but I don't think anyone makes then any more or at least they are very, very, very rare.When I hear the term gas pack I think of a heat pump with gas furance as the backup heat.So you would have have the resistive loads that take lots of amps.
Here is an example of a gas pack:
http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/PackagedUnits/GasElectric/PGE_XL1200.aspx
It is something different than a split system which is what I think you are maybe describing.
One distinguishing characteristic of what we call a Gas Pack is that there is no indoor equipment. The large "packaged unit" sits outside next to the foundation and there is a large hood that covers the supply and return trunk lines as they go through the foundation. I guess you are right though - the AC is electric, although I don't really know if it would be classified as a heat pump - as far as I know, the heat is always generated by burning gas.
Those particular units appear to be just furnace/AC and I see that they offer similar packaged heatpumps.Does not appear that they do offer packaged heat pumps with gas backup. But there if the can package a gas furnace/AC there is no technical reason that could not offer heatpump with gas backup. Probably just not enough market. For splits it is easier to mix and match.
Securing Cable et al
Ok, so I have to secure the cable when said cable comes within 12" of a box. I take this to mean an outlet, switch, or ceiling recepticle, correct? And the interpretation is that between boxes (runs) ~4.5 feet? I did not notice whether or not there are reccommendations for methods of securing outside of staples and other such metal, or part-metal, fasteners. What crazy things have others been using outside of staple-ish like fasteners?
Also, I noticed that HD sells boxes called 'Old Work'. These are of a design in which they are not fastened to a stud. These are not LV boxes, either. I spoke to someone last night and he used them in new work (basement, I think). So, if someone just make wire drops to the bottom of their stud-cavity box location and drywalls over and then cuts out tight openings later with the intention of using these Old Word boxes is this actually an accepted practice?
Also, just because Home Depot sells something does that mean the local authorities are accepting of it in use? It made me wonder if someone like HD could be ordering stuff on a large scale and accidentally ships to some stores where local code prohibits use of such a product.
BTW, these Old Word boxes use four screw points with tabs on them. When you turn the screws the tabs stand up. As you continue to screw the screws on these tabs the leading edges of the tabs apply force on the backside of the drywall. Surprised me when I first ran across them in the store--especially since up until yesterday I hadn't known a soul that used them.
Old work boxes are old. Been around long before HD every came along.But I have never seen one with 4 tabs. All of the common rectangular plastic boxes that I have had 2 tabs. Round ceilign boxes 3. There is also a low voltage version that is the same, but does not have a back, it is just a sleave.There are alos metal and maybe plastic ones with metal bat wings on the side. You squeeze then to get in to the hole and then there is a scew in the back that you tighten to draw up the wings against the DW.There are also madison (battleship) clips that can be added to any box that has ears. I could not find a picture, but it is a stamp metal device with 4 fingers. two slip behind the DW and the other two are bend around the box. One goes on each side of the box.Now the NEC is only 1/2 of the code. It also requires you to use APPROVED MATERIALS and follow MANUFACTURES INSTRUCTIONS.So to get the complete story you need to go through the UL specs and approval lists.But my guess is that all of the old work boxes the plastic "trap doors" on the plastic boxes where cable goes through meet the requirement of clamping the cable near the box.
As was stated earlier, the code makes an exception to the fastening rule for "old work". It's probably up to the inspector, though, whether one can invoke the "old work" exception in a newly constructed or remodeled area.In the case where cables are dropped into the walls and terminated later, they still should be fastened to the studs at appropriate intervals to near the point where the box will eventually be.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Also, because HD or Lowes or even the local HW store sells something does not mean it's acceptable to local authorities. And because the salesmen there say it's OK does not meant that it really is.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Nuke,If you are getting the basement inspected, I doubt the inspector will pass rough-in electrical with the romex hanging in all the stud bays for receptacles. They do pass hanging romex for wall sconces! ( at least around here). The grounds need to be made up for rough-in, so only single romex hanging usually passes.Double gang old work boxes have four swing tabs on them. I use this style all the time on remodel work. You can get really tight sheetrock fits with them! Plaster walls are a little tougher but do-able.Staples need to be approved for the application. No wire fence staples or bent nails. I do use the cable stackers sold by 3M and others to run three plus wires along a stud. Others:
What do you use to fasten romex to the side of a metal stud? I haven't had the pleasure to work with metal studs except exposed work with conduit. I know about the plastic bushings for the holes through the studs. Some of those black cable stackers screwed to the stud? I've heard metal studs are the "cat's meow" for basement remodeling.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
"they put in a 125a service for a 2000 sq ft house"
It all depends on what's in there. If they are running gas appliances, they likely will never come close.
I put a 200A service in my house (2700 sq ft) - mainly because I forsee adding a shop in the back yard some time in the future. When I ran the numbers to apply for my permit, it worked out to 75A, so I could have got away w/ a 100A service if I were so inclined.
Most houses today - even ones in small lots where there is no place for out buildings - get 200A service because the HO will fall over w/ anything less than that. A friend of mine (who is an electrician) lives in a house that is total electric (including electric baseboard heat). He has a 100A service with no trouble at all.