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I was wondering if anyone out there had any suggestions on a problem i have been having for the past few years. Im a small time contractor, doing jobs from under $1,000 to $75,000. I have been a carpenter for 20yrs. and feel i know what quality is and looks like. I build and construct things as if it were my own home. Doing those little things that know one sees. But knowing its the right thing to do. I was taught by old timers, and thats the care i put into things. My question is i have noticed in the past few years it seems like all of a sudden there are more and more people out there who call themself carpenters, some of whom i wouldnt hire for a helper. Im pricing jobs to do them the right way. But lately have been getting under bid so bad that something is wrong. How do you keep the quality in a job and do it the right way, And make a living. Without giving the job away for nothing. Its like you have to become one of these shotty carpenters to get the work. Most people i have seen dont know quality anymore. They all want a dollars worth of work for a nickel any advice?
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p.jones, don't give in to the temptation to lower prices to get jobs. Because you will still try to do the type of work you always do and find that it will cost you money.Why should you own a piece of everyone else's home, you're not a bank.Your reputation is what makes you money don't lower your standards. There are always hard times, you just have to ride them out. Vince
*Sales.The secret is to learn how to show a customer that you are worth the extra price. Continue to charge what you need to do the job right. Lowering your prices will force you to cut corners, work alittle faster, and do a shoddy job. As I mentioned here before, I became aware of the need to become a salesmen just about a year ago. I've been working on those skills ever since. What a difference it makes.I'm one of those guys that hates "salesmen" but I've found out that you can do sales without being pushy or rude. If you can help a client to realize that you are the best deal around, you've done the client a favor and you've made the sale.
*P.Jones, I totally agree with Vince and Ryan on this one. I too learned my trade from the old timers and believe in quality work and craftsmanship. In addition to building cabinetry, I also do trim work. My cabinets take longer to build than most larger cabinet shops in my area; however, I try to sell my customers on what I am giving them above and beyond the average job and why my extras are worth more. So far, the best advertising I have done is the work that I have done for my customers. Sure there are people that are in a hurry and people that are always wanting a low price, but I just try to point out that they will usually get what they pay for. Just hang in there and don't jeopardize you reputation by trying to increase speed and lower quality. MDM.
*...check out the BUSINESS section of BT...we talk about tis all the time there on one thread or another...b ..ya gotta learn to sing if ya wanna get the green...Kermit
*p.jones,I think the boom economy these days has brought some shoddy and shady operators onto the field. But I don't think you should consider lowering your standards to get down to their level. If you were to do that your rewards would be: lack of self respect, unhappines with your work, and an assured eventual end to your business. Find satisfaction in your work, keep doing what has been sucessful for you and you'll come out OK in the end.
*No advice, but it is getting worse, it seems. I spent a month in the fall working on a proposal for a pretty big millwork and cabinetry job; redesigning some stuff, samples, etc. etc. Working really hard, saving the clients bucks, all for free, and at the expense of other work (and, yes, all you guys from the Business section, doing everything completely wrong). I got the word last week that I lost it to a guy that bid half what I did. I figured 14 000 in materials; his total price is supposed to be somewhere around 18-19K. Impossible, if you are talking apples to apples. Plus, he lives five hours away one way, and this job included lots of built-ins, templated desks, solid surface etc., all fairly involved. I'm just venting here, but I really do think the future holds more of this. You can talk sales and customer education, but all I hear is price.
*I see a couple things here, first, as you have developed your craft over the last 20 years, your standards have changed. You have learned what makes a job "better" if not necessarilly flashier. Your sense of craft requires you to do the job to your standards, and this requires longer and costs you (and the customer) more. Not only that, you are no longer willing to work for 12.50/hr and after a while you understand that to stay in business, you have to add overhead to your price, or you'll be out of business the first slow time, or when you have to absorb the cost of a mistake. All this causes you to be more expensive than that guy/gal just gettin' started (or yourself 10 years ago). The good news is, by keeping your standards high and charging what you have to charge to stay in business, you also attract the kind of customer who DOES care about the piece of mind of knowing that they have hired a real pro, a craftsperson. That's the kind of customer you want anyway, isn't it? I'm starting to understand and accept that often times it's better to bid a job and NOT get it, than to bid it too low and work for peanuts. Been there, done that. One thing you might consider is getting involved with a speculative project, where you do the work to your own standards, and see if in the end, the consumer is willing to pay for that quality or not. There is a big digfference between providing a "product" and a "service".
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p. jones. Hang in there. If you lower your quality of work you'll probably think about it every night when your head hits that pillow. Sounds like you've had the misfortune of hitting a few bargain hunters in a row. Point out the additional steps and trouble you go to to the perspective customer.It's not bragging but simply making the customer aware of the extra labor involved to produce a quality job. Unless the customer is an ex tradesman or contractor they're not always going to know the difference between quality and slam bang carpentry until they lived with it for a year or so. (Thats a little late). If you continue quality they will come.
Good Luck.
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Hang in there, they will be calling you back to finish the job when he either can't finish, or runs out of money, or both. I've had it happen to me in the past.
P.J.- my advice is also to learn sales technique. Nothing happens without a sale and sales is a learned craft just like carpentry. When, as a self -employed craftsman, you understand the value of sales and seek out the knowledge to learn, you no longer compete on price. The times have not changed, low-ballers and their clients have been around a long time. Bill Swales
*P.Don't give in/up. Speaking from the opposite side of the fence from you (I'm not a pro), don't settle for less than you are satisfied with w.r.t. quality. But price accordingly. Most homeowners have no idea what they are buying/paying for. It's your job as a businessperson to explain not just what you are doing quality-wise, but why it costs more, and why they should be happy to pay for it in the long run. The ones you want as customers (& references) are the ones who will understand & appreciate what you are telling them. I watched my neighbors slam (not slap) on their addition....cost plenty, but was a big hassle, & with questionable contractor credentials. Every morning when I go out to the car, I look up at the roof over their master bedroom "suite"....there's a razor sharp line where the wall starts, & half their roof is melted clean. They may never notice, but I know that won't (knock on wood) happen to me, because I'll be looking for someone who will do it right. Did I mention their deck railing is held together with 16d finish nails?So let the bottom-feeding "tradesmen" and the "price-only" homeowners have their day. The former will not be there when these glory days thin out, and the latter will wish they knew what they were looking for when the drywall caves in from the ice dams & leaks.Look for the good customers, & ignore the bad "competition".Best of luck, Per
*PJ,Maybe you're selling to the wrong crowd. There are four types of people. poor stupid (lots of them), poor smart (a few of them), rich stupid (a lot of them too), and rich smart(quite a few but you've got to look hard). You want to find the fourth group to sell to. They realize the value of quality and can afford it. Unfortunately, my favorite group, poor smart, also realize the value in great work but just can't afford it.There is a book I read called "selling to the affluent" It's not a great book but it has some good information in it. I'd suggest reading it. sorry, don't know the author, it was a borrowed book (as I am poor - smart).Actually, maybe the rich stupid group is a good group to sell to also. They may not know if you're doing good work or not. Just one of those "after midnight, haven't had any sleep because I have 11 week old" theories I seem to get.
*Both of Ryans posts are right on target.I know it is easy to say,and hard to do.What you want are customers who do not make decisions based primarily on cost.Sure cost should be a factor,just not the primary factor.(someone can ALWAYS beat your price)If your prospects feel that YOU are the only person to do the job,that YOU will best deliver what they want,that YOU are THE guy to have you will have a lot better luck converting prospects into customers.Cause now the prospect is sold on YOU and your work-----price is a secondary issue.In fact eventually your customers will actually BRAG to other people as they refer you." He wasn't the cheapest guy we could have got,but man was he worth it" In fact eventually you will get referalls from prople you have never worked for---but wish that you had.Several years ago I gave an estimate to a prospect.I never heard directly back from him and he had someone else roof the house.A couple of months later his next door neighbor called me for an estimate.I mentioned that I had bid on the roof next door,but that I could see someone else had done the job. The prospect said" I know,I asked him who did his roof and he said FORGET about them,Steve is the guy I Wish I had do the roof.If only all sales were that easy. But what an ego boost! Stephen
*p.jones.- I consider myself lucky enough to work for a remodeling co. that has built its reputation on Quality work. Most of our work is high end stuff or just done for people who wantit done right. Occasionally we get some jobs were we are asked to cut corners to save money or just because the job doesnt merit alot of extra fuss. But we still do a good job where it counts... You dont have tospend the same amount of time on Masonite casing as you do Stain- grade hardwood, But you you dont leave huge gaps in your miters either.. Get my point?What Im saying is that there are an increasing # of customers out there that for what ever reason dont want 'Top shelf' work but are willing to pay to make sure what is done is done right. Unfortunately there are also alot of people who just want it done fast and cheap. these folks are the ones who will hire the guys who give us all a bad rep by doing a hack job for cheap.Keep on doing the good job and you will be rewarded with a good rep and a solid client base. But you still need to eat so maybe you should consider some B-grade jobs. In the very least you may enlighten some folks to what quality really means and that value is is not always just about how much money you saved.Sorry if I rambled on a little I could go on forever it seems. Dont get me started on why a good residential(read non-union) carpenter will never earn a decent salary. Thats for another Post.
*Okay, I won't argue that sales and customer education are critical. I do a lot of it, and a decent protfolio and great references help. But I believe there is a fundamental change underway, and it is pushing the price/quality issue to another degree. The big change is that many people now are building homes at least one income bracket above their paychecks; the rich see what the super rich are building, and they build to the same level. The upper middle class see what the rich are doing, and they build up. The same all the way down the line. This isn't just my observation; I heard a discussion on the radio related to this, with several industry researchers, and there is lots of evidence to support this. So we end up with clients stretching dollars to the limit, and beyond, to get square footage at the expense of quality detailing, and inevitably, at the end of the project, they start freaking and pushing the builder or subs on price. They never want you to compromise on quality, but they want it for less (obviously, this doesn't apply to all clients, but I know we all recognise the type). this doesn't affect the first guys in so much; framers, foundations, plumbers, electricians,roofers etc, they all get paid off before the money starts getting tight. But the design/builders and guys like me, who come in at the end, feel it.Case in point, the couple I mentioned above. Pleasant, sophisticated, people, both doctors. 5000 sq ft. custom home, from a good architect, beautiful location.Framed up and almost ready for rock before they even talked to me, looking to move in quickly. As I said, lots of high end, involved cabinetry. But they ran out of money. I sold them on my work, educated them on the process and their choices, and in the end, it was decided basically on price. If the house was scaled back 500 or 1000 feet, that would free up 50-100K minimum to make the interior everything they dreamed of, and it would still be a large home, by my standards anyway.Anyway, I know this is an issue quality contractors have always dealt with. But I really do think that the combination of more unskilled or lowball competitors (even if they don't last long individually), and more clients with bigger dreams than bank balances, everyone is going to feel it. What's the answer? I don't know, and that worries me. Sales, education, and rock solid business basics are part of it. Maintaining your own standards is another. But there are big, big changes going on in our customer base. I'm just not very optimistic.
*Adrian - In the scenario you describe, it seems to me the ball got dropped long before you got involved in the project. I mean, if this architect was so good, why didn't the customers have a rough idea what it was gonna cost to do the type of work designed in the first place. Why weren't there check points along the way to reassess the budget and what would be left for cabinetry in the end? If these steps had been followed, they should have taken a different tack on that cabinetry, maybe sat down with a number in mind and said "here's what we have budgeted, what can we do with this much money?". Isn't that the basic principle they used with the architect in the first place? I mean, the basic situation you describe is one that has been goin' on for at least as long as I have been in the trades (probably since there have been houses built) - end of the project, money gets tight, so they cut back on trim or built ins, or cabinetry because the extra square footage is already built. But the underlying problem, as I see it, is not your price, but poor planning. And anyone havin' a big shack built, on a big budget certainly should be getting professional help in the planning department. And if that planning doesn't turn out to be accurate, to me that's not good service.
*Jim; yeah, you are bang on as usual. I wasn't privy to anything before the start of my involvement, but from my dealings with this architect, he seems very well prepared and professional, so I have to assume he went over this with them. He isn't doing project management, as far as I can tell; I've been dealing with the homeowners. You always have to factor in the architect wanting to see the designs built, sometimes designing bigger than the budget. That's fine; I like the ideas, and I can usually find a way to bring it in on budget. And I know I'm competitive (not the cheapest, but in the ballpark, 'cause I bid most jobs). This particular job is probably just one of those apples to oranges things.Whether this particular job of mine applies or not, the trend seems to be homeowners building not just a little, but way over their heads, without necessarily passing that info on to the guys doing the work (wasn't it Mad Dog recently who was pricing a 150K reno to a RENTED place?). I'm going to stop now before I get into a "how much is enough" "build smaller and better" rant. I may be influenced by the fact that I'm in the worst economy in Canada, but it wasn't any different in Ottawa, when I left there four years ago; if anybody reading this is seeing none of these signs, good luck to you.
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I was wondering if anyone out there had any suggestions on a problem i have been having for the past few years. Im a small time contractor, doing jobs from under $1,000 to $75,000. I have been a carpenter for 20yrs. and feel i know what quality is and looks like. I build and construct things as if it were my own home. Doing those little things that know one sees. But knowing its the right thing to do. I was taught by old timers, and thats the care i put into things. My question is i have noticed in the past few years it seems like all of a sudden there are more and more people out there who call themself carpenters, some of whom i wouldnt hire for a helper. Im pricing jobs to do them the right way. But lately have been getting under bid so bad that something is wrong. How do you keep the quality in a job and do it the right way, And make a living. Without giving the job away for nothing. Its like you have to become one of these shotty carpenters to get the work. Most people i have seen dont know quality anymore. They all want a dollars worth of work for a nickel any advice?