Questions about decking
I am currently designing a 10’x12′ deck for a client. I have a few questions. What are the advantages of joist hangers over typical fastenings with nails and why? Will pre-engineered, treated 6X6 posts work to support the deck from the top of concrete piers to the handrail and what are the advantages/disadvantages of carrying the posts from top of pier to handrail? In the most recent issue there was an article about decks, the author framed the joists over beams spanning the posts. My question is this: what are the advantages/diadvantages of his method over framing the rim board as a beam, notched into the posts, with joist hangers into the rim board instead of toenailed into top of beams per the author?
Edited 5/21/2007 10:49 pm ET by southernbuilder
Edited 5/21/2007 10:52 pm by southernbuilder
You want lawrence for this question. He should be around here somwhere...
Be puttin out an APB for lawrence
Woody, the subject of the thread aside, I had to tell you that your tagline has got to be the best. That's all, carry on!
I like your tagline, too! Heinlein is one of those authors I've been trying to get around to reading for quite a few years.
You have a LOT of questions there, so I am bound to miss some of them.
First Q on the hangers - that IS the typical fastening solutions the past thirty years more or less, so what method do you have in mind?
On the post stacking vs continuing -
when the same post runs all the way from pier up into handrail, it is theorecticly a stranger handrail, but that depends on how much you notch into the post. too many folks try it with a 4x4 and by time they notch enough to hold the deck up, they dopn't have much of a post anmore. It also can result in a weaker deck for secveral reasons. the problem of copper rotting the fasteners is one. A beam laid across top of posts with the joists of=ver that is using gravity to make things stable instead of relying on small notches and a bunch of fasteners that could fail in the fight with gravity
The other disadvantage is that it can be pretty difficult to do the layout so as to get said posts in the exact location needed for handrail when pouring the crete.
Finally, not too many people want that large of a post as part of their handrail system. It gets pretty darn bulky so it doesn't fit a lot of styles. A 6x6 can twist and is rough vs nicer materials so it can be necessary to clad it
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Let me start by thanking you for your response. I am fairly new at this, so any and all input is very welcome.
I was not too clear with my first question regarding fasteners. Allow me to rephrase. The author of the article in the most recent issue of FHB end nailed the joists to the rimboard. He also made the comment that using the beams allowed him to not use joist hangers. He phrased it as though this were a good thing. My question is this: Is it necessary to use joist hangers when you have a joist over beam condition and what are the advantages/diadvantages of this detail. My personal inclination is to use joist hangers, due to their strength, in all deck building assemblies. Is this a prudent approach?
If you don not continue the posts to the hand rail, what is/are the best connections for this assembly? From an aesthetic and functional point of view?
I do not like end nailed rim at all. allways toenail whether using hangers or not. End screwed canbe OK sometimes.Hangers not needed in over beam situtiuon.I like over beam more lately bceause of the new PT and how it rots the fasteneers, even though we are using SS, I don't trust things so mucch now.Post setting depends. Sometimes bolted into the framing, sometimes using hardware above. I use a lot of Fypon and other synthetic railings so they have top mount hardware tht functions to make the post a torsion box
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I like to use ledgers instead of hangers. For a simple example: a 2x10 band with a 2x2 ledger supporting 2x8 joists, then add another 2x10 for the doubled band. I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more.
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About man and God and law.
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I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more.
I always wanted a "stranger" handrail...none of that plain stuff for me ;-)
IMHO sitting joists on a beam is a disadvantage.
You have to be high enough off the ground to fit a beam under joists.
Without a lot of cantilever you can't hide it, even low to the ground.
It makes attaching handrail posts more complicated.
I, personally, hate the practice of hanging beams off through bolts, I think it's fine for pergolas, not so great for a deck.
That said, I put a lot of beams at midspan to reduce joist size.
What are the advantages of joist hangers over typical fastenings with nails and why?
When using hangers, nails are face nailed into the grain. This makes a stronger connection than nailing into end grain. I think the only downside to hangers is that they can sometimes take longer to install, and there might be a tendency to trap moisture and organic matter. (Sometimes, the end of the board will split apart by the time you're done driving in six fasteners, too, but that's a different story.)
Edited 5/24/2007 12:46 am ET by Ragnar17
I build decks every day, and I almost exclusively carry the joists on a beam. The advantages are many- first the layout for the piers is much simpler, second it reduces your joist span allowong for the use of a smaller joist in many cases, example- a deck 12' out from the house can be framed with 2x8 instead of 2x10, and a 16' deck can be framed with 2x10 instead of 2x12.(I always set the beam 2' back and cantilever over) Also, extending support posts up for handrail is not the best idea because often a long post will twist. Not even to mention that long 6x6 are heavy and cumbersome. As far as the ledger at the house, in the recent article the deck was detached from the house, so he had a beam up close to the house, which would not require that the joists be hangered. I always attach my joists to the ledger with 4 to 6 #10 x3 1/2 star drive screws, then come back and install joist hangers. A little time consuming maybe, but darn cheap insurance.
What is the best way fasten the beam to the post? Everything that I've read says that notching the posts is the strongest connection. What are the advantages/disadvantages of this? If it is the most ideal connection, are bolts the typical fastener? I noticed that the article in the most recent FHB that the author used a fastener called Timberlok. Is this a new product and do you happen to anything about it?
The deck that I'm building is about 5' above grade. The framing will not be attached with a ledger. My question is, are knee braces or some type of lateral bracing required? What is the best way to handle this if required?
I live in central Alabama with a very mild climate. The ground rarely freezes and the soil that I will be building on is fairly well compacted. What is the ideal foundation system?
Edited 5/26/2007 9:31 pm by southernbuilder
I notch the post, generally for a 2x12 beam, fasten it with 5 screws, and then I install 2 GRK RSS(rugged structural screws). These screws, really more like lags, are 5/16" but are as strong as 1/2" lags. They have a torx drive and a large washer head. They have a LOT of holding power. Of course the advantage of notching your post is that your deck is held up by wood bearing on wood, not by the shear strength of your fasteners. The only disadvantage I guess would just be having to do it, but it only takes a few minutes per post. Before you make your notch, check to see how thick your beam stock is. 2x12 is supposed to be 11 1/4, but often can vary from that a 1/4 either direction. My question is, if your deck is not attached with a ledger, how will it be attached ? As far as your foundation, all I can tell you is how i do it here in southern Illinois. I dig 8" holes 30" deep, bell out the bottom of the hole so that the bottom of your pier is wider that the top, pour concrete, either ready-mix or bag concrete, imbed a galv. 1/2 x 6" j-bolt, and bolt down a metal post base. Tip- if you use bag concrete, buy a bag of portland cement and add a shovel to each bag as you mix it.
Reviving this older thread because I have a related question. Because of height constraints I need to keep my middle beam flush with the 2x12 band (I still want to call it the rim joist!). I want to avoid notching the 6x6 post, and I like that the band and beam will sit squarely on the post.
Question is, where the beam and post meet at a 'T' over the post, how do I mechnically fasten them to the post? Using Simpson products, could I use the AC line for the band then angle brackets to connect the beam to the band?
I don't know, but this will push your question up the list so others can see it and answer.
Well... I'm a little confused. Your middle beam, is that because you deck is longer than your joist will span and you are using a flush beam ? Also, not sure what you mean when you say the beam and post will meet over the post. Please clarify and I'll do my best to answer you.
"Well... I'm a little confused. Your middle beam, is that because you deck is longer than your joist will span and you are using a flush beam ?"Yes and yes."Also, not sure what you mean when you say the beam and post will meet over the post. Please clarify and I'll do my best to answer you."Sorry, typo. Meant beam and band/rim joist over the post.Kevin
Edited 7/21/2007 9:17 pm ET by kevreh
Ok, now I'm with you. If at all possible, I would notch the beam/band into the post, as long as under your notch you still have 3 or 4 inches of post. Less than that and it will just break off. I'm not familiar with the AC line of Simpson products, but if you mean the metal post cap brackets, they should work. How high above grade are you ?
I'm ~2' off grade.
Why didn't I want to notch? Circular saw only goes 2" into the post. That means that a good 1" of the band (keep in mind this is a doubled up band) will not be supported. Based on other messages, I thought it would be better to have the beam and band sit on the posts.
Circular saw should cut deeper than 2 inches... what brand do you have?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
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I checked and it is 2-1/4" deep. Its a Craftsman by the way.
I attached a pic of what I'm dealing with. The main reason why I hesitated with notching out is that the engineer called for 3-2x12's on the front. So, one of the 2x12's would be unsuported (I can only notch out so much before taking too much wood out of the 6x6). If thats not an issue I'm taking the existing corner posts off and notching them out as jdbuilder describes. Thanks for the explanation jdbuilder.
I figured it will take more time and effort getting the right bracket than the half hour or so of re-doing the 2 posts.
To address the water issue with double bands, I was going to cover the top with the membrane product (name escapes me right now).
Edited 7/24/2007 8:58 am ET by kevreh
Edited 7/24/2007 9:02 am ET by kevreh
That's quite a rim on that deck! check out this Simpson guide for some connector options (go to pg. 10) http://strongtie.com/ftp/fliers/F-DECKCODE07.pdfJustin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
Ok, you can still make your notch the depth you want. Most saws cut 2 1/4" deep. Make your cut across the grain, then rip down the side of your post on each side, and then on the end grain of your post connect your two rip cuts. Finish your first cut with a sawzall, then simply take a flat bar, hammer the short end of it into the cut you made on the end grain, and the peice should pop right off. Then just clean the rest up with a sharp chisel. This really doesn't take that long. Also, if you going to double your band, you really should use some kind if spacers between your two 2x12s. Two boards screwed together will hold water and will tend to rot, even with treated lumber. As far as the spacers, I use leftover scraps of composite fascia material, cut into strips a couple inches wide or so, and put them every 16". I think you'll find this way to be easier, and a lot stronger as well.
Why dont you want to notch the posts? I always prefer to notch with 6x6's unless there is some unique handrail offset detail.