So a few weeks ago I had a grading guy come out to look at my place and told him what I wanted.
I wanted the dirt around the house to slope away from the foundation. I wanted the gravel driveway removed from the back/side of the house so I could plant grass and have a real yard instead of a backyard of gravel. I wanted a small depression in the front yard leveled.
I got talked into a french drain about 4 feet from the foundation. He said he could scrape down the gravel drive, but it would probably still be pretty rocky – I said that was OK I would bring in some dirt if I needed to.
We set a date and I scheduled to take the day off of work so I could be here while he did the work.
The date got rained out. So we talked and said “next week”, Tuesday of “next week” I get a call and he says “I am doing your job tomorrow” I have a client coming in at work and I can not take the day off on such short notice, so I ask to reschedule to the following week. He says no. . . I have other jobs blah blah blah. He assures me he knows what I want done blah blah blah. I said fine — this is why what I have is my own fault. I should have been firm so I could be there when he came.
So remember how I wanted the dirt to slope away from the house? from putting in the french drain it now slopes even more towards the house, the “filter fabric” is so shallow it is sticking up through the surface. The grade is now about 4 inches higher where the deck stairs need to go, making the under deck area likely to pool water since it has no place to go. He tore out at least 3 trees we had not talked about for the outlet of the french drain. He tore them out of the ground and left the root balls sticking up. One of the root balls he rolled onto my neighbor’s property (only 15 feet from an engineer stake from the property line). Where he was supposed to scrape away the gravel it is pure gravel and at a higher level than it was before, where he was supposed to leave driveway it is now clay with almost no gravel. He drove over part of my front lawn (about 50 feet by 15 feet) that he had no reason to drive over so the grass there is all torn up from his bull dozer tracks. He left bulldozer tracks in the rest of my gravel drive. The fill area in the front yard is not smooth/has bull dozer tracks in it. . . the list goes on. Basically he did not clean up after the job. I have had grading done at a previous property and the guys back dragged everything on the way out so you could hardly tell what kind of equipment was in there.
So it’s my fault, I should have been there to make him tidy up. I am mad as h*** about the trees. Even more mad about rolling a root ball onto my neighbor’s property. This guy came highly recommended and has 13 years of experience.
So what is my recourse? Call him back and let him know I am unhappy? Make him clean up? I paid his full bid price, no haggling down or anything. Were my expectations too high??? Do I call another guy and have him come tidy up? I am mad enough that I really don’t want the first guy anywhere near the place. . . I really don’t have another thousand bucks to have the work done twice either.
Frustrated. . .
Replies
Paid in advance?
No - wife got home while he was still here and paid him then. To her all the trenches were filled and the depression was gone so that was fine.Should make her go out with the rake and get rid of the tracks.
Assuming you didn't pay him a $1000. cash, stop the check if he's unwilling to correct things...buic
stop the check if he's unwilling to correct things
FWIW, it's a crime in most places to stop payment on a legitimate check that is not lost. Not saying he shouldn't do it, but there are risks.
contractor a con with a tractor
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I talk politics because I hate to drink alone
sound like another : Grab him by the ears, move in a very rapid movement against a concrete surface and say in a very loud aggressive tone "Do your fricken job" rant
Stop the check first. Then call him and, in a gentle but firm voice, explain that there are some problems with his work which will have to be corrected before he gets his money.
If he cashed the check, a very likely scenario, you're probably SOL. The fact that he got paid means that he satisfied someone's idea of what was supposed to be done. So the argument is now between you and your wife.
You could speak with a lawyer but without a specific contract, you're wasting your time and money.
If he cashed the check, a very likely scenario, you're probably SOL.
You can actually pull back a check for up to 90 days after it is cashed. The bank will want to be indemnified, and may refuse to do it. But FWIW, it is possible.
Not recommending this course of action, just sharing information about possibilities.
You can actually pull back a check for up to 90 days after it is cashed. The bank will want to be indemnified, and may refuse to do it. But FWIW, it is possible.
What does "pull back" mean? And what happens when the payee takes the check to the payor's bank and cashes it immediately? The cash is gone with no trail, except perhaps a driver's license number.
What does "pull back" mean? And what happens when the payee takes the check to the payor's bank and cashes it immediately? The cash is gone with no trail, except perhaps a driver's license number.
By "pull back", I mean recover the money, undo the transaction.
That's one reason why most banks won't cash a check if you don't have an account with them. It used to be that a bank would cash their own checks for anyone, but not anymore. That law was repealed a few years back. If a bank actually cashes the check, and the person does not have an account with the bank, I'm not sure what would happen. If you could show the bank cashed the check improperly, they would be liable, but otherwise, you would probably be out of luck.
It used to be that a bank would cash their own checks for anyone, but not anymore. That law was repealed a few years back.
Interesting. I didn't know that had changed.
There have been times in the past when I would do one day installations over a large territory on referal from the company which sold the product.
When the HO clients called to make an appointment for that service, I would always ask for cash or a check which could be cashed at their bank, immediately upon leaving their home.
For the amount I was making, I just couldn't afford to get stung so the aggravation of waiting for checks to clear through my account was more than I could live with and still enjoy my work. A couple of bounced checks would mess up my finances badly.
Fortunately most home owners were very understanding. The carefully constructed phrases, "We'd like to be paid in cash. Will that be possible?" during the initial phone call, also helped place the responsibility for prompt payment correctly on the homeowner's shoulders.
Edited 11/6/2007 9:06 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Same thing happened to me so all i can say its i knows how ya feels, Stinks ya cant trust people i had other things to do to and could not watch.
The only part that's your fault, is that you FRIGGIN PAYED him!
Mike
"The only part that's your fault, is that you FRIGGIN PAYED him!"Yep.So now that I have cooled off a bit I have made my decision. Call him, ask him to fix some of the clean up stuff. If he balks just say thanks anyway. Then hire somebody else to come in and do the clean up. Maybe cost me an extra 3 or 400 bucks but that is just my tuition in the school of "grow a pair"Thanks for letting me rant.
I wouldn't let him off that easy. The bare minimum grading job has water running away from the house.
FWIW, you might want to consider renting a small machine for a day, the next time you need to do some grading. It's usually about half the price and you get more satisifaction from the outcome.
I've done a bunch of digging and grading jobs with zero formal training. Having watched a few competent operators at work, I found it fairly easy to follow what I'd seen them do.
My experience has been somewhat different. I've learned the hard way that operating heavy equipment is harder than it looks. Sure. I've muttled through with a bob cat several times and did some digging with a back hoe and mini excavator, but it took me 3 times as long as an experienced operator with less than optimum results save me getting out there with hand tools to finish off what I lacked in skill to accomplish with the machine. My finish work ended up being 90% finished. My trenches weren't real straight and varied wildly in depth - not what you want for laying pipe. I did OK with digging holes for trees and spreading gravel on a driveway though.
Another issue is that one machine doesn't do it all - which may have been part of the problem for the OP (although there is no excuse for having water run toward the house). A finish machine like a skid steer for example isn't capable of grading (cutting swails, etc) in hard dirt in any significant amount. Likewise a dozer isn't gonna be able to do finish work.
So part of the deal is you gotta hire someone with the right equipment to do the job at hand, and that may include laborers. For a finish grade with a rake out by laborers and seed and straw I have to pay about $2k for a a little less than a day's work. That's for hiring an insured subcontractor who doesn't need much supervision. Add maybe $150 to $250 for each dumptruck load of dirt that either has to be brought in or removed. I still check the job before the guy is paid though.
Matt, I've always had a love of earth moving equipment. It's both a childhood fascination and a personal love of human ingenuity in the form of machines. As a result, I get really immersed in watching skillful machine operators do their jobs.
During a lull in housing starts back in the 70's I discovered the swimming pool business and became a successful sub doing mostly in-ground installations.
As I needed to closely supervise the digging of the pools, to keep the subsequent hand work to a minimum, I got very involved in watching each movement of the backhoe so that I could communicate better with the operator.
At one point in my second summer I couldn't find a backhoe owner/operator to do the next job. That job was only a few miles from a construction rental outfit. They had one old backhoe, a 480 Case, for a bargain rate so I decided to give it a try.
The many hours I'd spent watching made it relatively easy for me to get into it. Sure I pushed the wrong control many times but I wasn't hurting anything so it was all to the good.
I actually did a better job than most good operators did, their first time trying to dig a hopper shape for the deep end. That was simply because I was able to visualize what I wanted to do clearly.
That's the key to operating any earth moving machine. If you can visualize what you want the machine to do and have watched it being done before, you'll figure out how to do it on your own just fine.
One of the biggest problem with construction labor is the ability to think. Those that think they no a better way. You are not paying someone to think but to do the labor. just do the job please, no thinking..
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I talk politics because I hate to drink alone
That was simply because I was able to visualize what I wanted to do clearly.
Exactly.
I've had guys here with lots of operating experience that performed poorly. The last one bragged to his buddies that I'd bought him a Cat. Unfortunately he never quite got the image. Cut on the high side, fill on the low side. Simple enough concept, but even after watching me, he still didn't get it.
Climbed down off the tractor in disgust when he realized I (a novice) was better than he was likely to ever be. Not the sharpest tool in the shed. Eye-hand coordination was good, understanding of the machine good, visualization apparently non-existent.
Never made any sense to me. But I pretty much gave up trying to hire an operator.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I too have spent many hours watching heavy equipment operators. I've had aprox $80k of grading work done within the last 3 months. Do you think I watched to be sure no debris god buried and and soils were compacted properly? Youbetcha! This past week I solicited bids to have more done. Like I said though. That doesn't make me think I can just jump on a dozer and grade a lot, nor can I climb in a track hoe and start laying pipe. Sounds like you have had some good expierence though making you significantly more qualified then myself or someone who reciently hired an excavation co and is unhappy with the results. This stuff isn't rocket science but it's not something the average office worker can pick up in an hour either.
True, we each have our own talents. Some things come easier to you, no doubt, than they would to me. That's why I prefaced my story about operating a backhoe for the first time with some things which I felt were indicators of a natural inclination.
Something else which helped me make the decision to rent machines for certain jobs...I've met a lot of guys in the trades whose methods of operation are much like the OP's contractor.
When I can't get one of the guys I know and trust, my next move is to look for a rental. I've scraped the bottom of the contractor barrel often enough not to waste my time on second rate owner/operators.
I've learned the hard way that operating heavy equipment is harder than it looks.
I hear that! Tried it once, realized that the $400 for a trained operator and machine is cheap, even compared to the $300 rental for the machine.
Tried it once, realized that the $400 for a trained operator and machine is cheap, even compared to the $300 rental for the machine.
OK. That's you. But for some others, it's not a very big hurdle. And it's certainly worth a try for anyone who has the desire and the need.
As in most new ventures, common sense is a big part of the equation. I wouldn't suggest that anyone climb on a large scale earth mover without receiving first hand instruction from an expert operator. Not unless there's a lot of open ground around and very little else.
Renting a skid steer for a day is a whole 'nother story...or a small dozer. I started out on a skid steer, backfilling an in-ground pool.
It was very peculiar, learning to operate that machine and it took me several hours of running around, before I got in sync with the thing. But by the end of the day the work had been done and I'd become fairly competent on that machine.
It's usually a pretty cheap rental, particularly if you pull it's trailer to the job site behind your own truck.
But I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else, just talking to those who're interested in giving it a try for the first time.
Edited 11/5/2007 4:28 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I'm with you.
Not for everyone I guess.
I haven't met the equipment I can't run.
For years one of my best friends was a ecx. contractor / developer. I built all my homes in his projects. I would steal his machines any time I needed them and they were idle. Put in pools also and dug them all myself. In fact a few times he would rent equipment, and ask me to run it because all of his guys only ran "joystick" models and I could run "four lever" or "joystick".
Just a little support.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
OK. That's you. But for some others, it's not a very big hurdle. And it's certainly worth a try for anyone who has the desire and the need.
That's fine - to each his own. I did try it, but I found that I was slower and less precise than a good operator with 20 years experience. Given that the rental cost of the machine was about the same as the cost for the operator to do it, I wouldn't hack around with doing it myself. I'd rather have the pro results for the same money.
But that's me, in my situation. Maybe operators cost more, or rental costs less, in your area. Maybe you have the time and patience to learn to operate a machine well enough for what you need to do. That's fine, to each his or her own.
But that's me, in my situation.
That's right, it's all about the situation. If I can afford to wait, it's a no brainer. I don't want to be on the machine when I can observe and make sure that details aren't missed.
But if I can't move on until some machine work gets completed or if I have to accept a second rate operator, I'll get the rental tomorrow and do it myself.
A: Did you have a contract that specified what was to be done?, if not you are fuxxed! B: You never pay the whole bill until its done to your satisfaction, sorry.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
signed contract - No.e-mail correspondence including list of tasks and a hand drawn sight plan referenced to the list of tasks - Yes.Not exactly a contract but certainly proof of the scope of work.I have sent him an e-mail calmly stating that I feel the site needs more clean up and the grading around the house is not what we discussed, to please call me on Monday.Yesterday AM was the first time I saw the yard in daylight. I leave for work before it is light and get home after dark. Hopefully he will understand, and remember that I had wanted to be here while he did the work.Like I said - it is my own fault for not making him reschedule to a day when I could be here while he did it.
Whithout having a contract outlining the scope of the work EXACTLY with a SIGNATURE on it I think you are screwed! This INCOMPETENT individual that now has your money I don't think he will be back, hope I'm wrong, luck.
So here is the outcome:I am hiring another grading guy to come out and clean up/fix the other guys work. I will be able to be here when he comes (luckily I was able to schedule the plumber to come on the same day so I am saving another day off later).The new guy is not charging me anywhere near what the first did and estimates he will be in and out in a few hours. I think the new guy knows which guy did the original work and is taking a huge amount of pleasure in coming in to fix his mess. New guy specializes in lawn preparation and landscapes so I am confident it will look better.I gave the first guy an opportunity to come out and fix it, he gave me a hard time about it so that is that. The relatively low cost of the second guy and the small town I live in make it unwise for me to go any further. Pretty quickly I would be in a situation where nobody local would come work on my stuff and I have a long long way to go before my renovation is done.I figure I lost out on 3-400 bucks on the deal, and the trees. Mark it down as educational costs right?
You have found out why contractors earn their money.
It is not because they are on site watching the subs and making sure they do their job properly. It is because they know who to hire to get the job done right.
And how did they get this knowledge? The same way you did. They hired the wrong guy and had to pay again to get it fixed. And they eliminated one guy from their list of subs. It's a long slow painful process.
Also regular contractors have the leverage of more work in the near future. A guy will be more likely to fix his mistakes if he knows related large amounts of work are coming soon. Further, in rehiring subs, the sub already has some first hand expierence of what is expected of him from the particular contractor.
Still regarding the OP, in his small town environment it seems like the saying "an unhappy customer tells an average of 6 people" might carry a bit more weight. Now that we have the Internet, let's modify that number to a potential of 6 thousand! Sorry, but I'm still thinking that the OP is letting this guy off too easy. There is always 2 sides to every story, but a grading job that directs water toward the house is just wrong.
Note to all: not only do you need to check a subcontractor's work before paying, but it is best to check before the sub leaves the site. An illustration is that in the case of excavation, larger grading companies charge "mobilization fees". These fees are from a few hundred $ to thousands and cover moving machinery etc. In the case of a smaller sub, these likely don't apply, but the concept still does, the trim carp, for example, doesn't want to come back, drag out all his hoses, cords, compressor and tools, just to reconfigured one piece of molding.
another item is communication, he will say that what he told me, pay me. But if there was blueprints, then you build to blueprints. But I need to change, nope build yo blue print or pay change order with new blue print.That why I cannot see how people screw up. Did you build to the print, No, why not, My way better, then I dont pay. We have been known to draw "as built" just to be able to pay the bill.
Hey guy, I came into this string a bit late and you've gotten some solid advice and you seem to have a solution but...I'm going to add this. Don't beat yourself up for making the assumption that you hired a competent contractor. There probably isn't a person reading and responding that hasn't heard or seen or been subjected to the nonsense you've had. More's the pity.
As an Architect I've stood on more that one job site and watched more than one contractor doing something that I don't recognize as being anything that I drew. The bells go off and I end up spending wayyy more time on-site than planned.
One thing that you didn't mention was whether you're in the business or a homeowner with a solid idea of what you want. ???
You mentioned being in a small town and you don't want to "get a reputation". You spends your money you should gets the result and any contractor who is put off by that shouldn't be on your project. Your first so-called contractor probably already has his reputation. Problem for you was that you didn't know what his was. Like you said, you learned.
Hope you get the results this time.
ciao