Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 24, 2000 12:51pm | #1

   *
   Try a sample on a pc of pine. Since many of the different cans come from the same manufacturer, diff brands don't necessarily mean diff. Course, you start mixing oil and water and all bets are off.

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   Guest_ | Jun 24, 2000 02:59pm | #2

   *I'll assume you are using oil-based products, as I have never seen a waterbased stain conditioner, but maybe they are out there.Yes, it's good if you can to stay within the same product family, but you are describing a pretty low tech finish, so there is a lot of flexibility (not so with some of the new laquers). The big thing is to look to the cleanup instructions to keep things compatible; as long as everything cleans up with paint thinner/mineral spirits, or everything cleans up with water, you're good to go. Except...if you apply an oilbased varnish (most of those tung oil finishes are a type of varnish), over an oil based stain, then the solvent may soften the stain and if you are brushing or wiping the finish on, you may end up smearing colour all over the place. Less risky if you spray a finish, but even so a lot of professional finishers try to avoid putting a topcoat over a similarly based stain. The same thing happens with a waterbased stain and a waterbased topcoat. I usually use waterbased dyes and oil based topcoats for this reason. Even the wax you mention can soften an oilbased stain, because the solvent, mineral spirits, is the same.As far as stain conditioners go, buying them in the store is basically a rip off. All they are is mineral spirits with a little oil added; you can make your own, or just use mineral spirits. And they don't work miracles anyway, but they sometimes help a little.What I usually do is to buy some good quality varnish. Some of it I dilute with boiled linseed oil or tung oil, and add some thinner to get it to the viscosity you like (start with 1:1:1). This is basically what is sold as Danish oil etc. The rest of the varnish I dilute 50:50 with thinner to make a wiping varnish, which applys like a Danish oil, but builds up faster.If you have access to it, Bob Flexner has a great book "Understanding Wood Finishes."

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 27, 2000 01:58am | #3

   *Thanks for your input, but I'm still confused!If I use mineral spirits as a wood conditioner, can I then use a water-based dye as Adrian suggested, and finish with tung oil or beeswax? These pine doors have had layers of paint removed, and I was advised that they will stain unevenly if I don't use a pre-stain conditioner.Years ago I refinished several pieces of antique oak furniture and used a hand-rubbed tung oil finish. I liked the finish better than varnish. I've never used Danish oil, but I'm willing to try it or something similar. I need the steps spelled out for me.

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   Guest_ | Jun 27, 2000 10:40pm | #4

   *I agree with Adrian about the pre-stain conditioners. I finished some pine doors last winter, and didn't have very good luck with the stuff. Seemed to work better just using wipe-on gel stain, and wiping it on in a thin coat. Then I followed up with more coats of stain and a clear finish. Putting the stain on thick (per the instructions) and letting it sit seemed to make the finish "blotchy".

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   Guest_ | Jun 28, 2000 03:33am | #5

   *Well, it can be confusing. Sorry if I made it worse.Stain conditioner is usually used with oil based satins. If you use a water based dye (I use the ones from Lee Valley Tools), the colouring action is usually much more consistent because it is happening to the fibres of the wood, at the molecular level (so you don't need stain conditioner). If you use water based dye, you can use any finish over it (but be careful of water based topcoats, because they may tend to redissolve the dye. You can use them, but be careful. A very light sealer coat of shellac would help in this case).The wiping varnish I recommended doesn't end up looking like that typical thick, goopy looking varnish; you apply more coats, which dry very thin because there is so much thinner mixed in. That's good; thin coats are always harder than thick coats. The really big advantage is that you can apply it with a rag, (wipe on, wipe most off), and you won't get those awful brush marks that all but the best varnishers leave. It just takes longer. If you keep going, you get a really durable finish that looks like a top quality laquer finish, but is more durable.As far as tung oil goes; you should read the Flexner book I recommended. Many manufacturers sell finishes that are called tung oil, and don't contain any. It's hard to know what you are buying.This is what I usually do:* use a waterbased dye on the raw wood. This may raise the grain (cause the wood fibres to stick up and feel fuzzy) on the first coat; lightly sand them off with fine sand paper, going on the diagonal a little bit. If this removes a lot of colour, apply more dye.* you may still need to apply an oilbased stain to even out the colour. Can't say; every case is different. I'd just forget about stain conditioner all together. If the wood is very blotchy, apply a very light sealer coat of well thinned shellac, it will do a better job.* apply a couple of coats of Danish oil, store bought or prepared as I described above, a day apart. See how that looks; it may be enough for you. If you want more of a build, keep going or switch to a wiping varnish (thinned varnish) applied with a rag. Keep going until you are happy. If you want, wax the final coat.If you need more, try and track down the book by Flexner. It is really good; I use it as the textbook for a finishing class.

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   Guest_ | Jun 30, 2000 03:35pm | #6

   *Thanks, Adrian and others...I'm going to try to locate that Flexner book on Amazon.com (you can find most any book there!) And, I plan to try Adrian's method on one door to see how I like it. Thanks for the input!!!