I had a Myers pump in my well, 3/4 HP if it matters, Rustler type. It recently sheared all its splines between the motor and the pump part, but the motor still whirs.
My driller is going to deepen my well anyway to improve my water quality, and will then install a 1-1/2 horse pump, but i’m wondering if there’s any way to fix this old one is case i could use it for anything else.
He says they can’t be fixed, but i’m thinking maybe it’s just not cost-efficient to fix them, but still may be possible. The thought of throwing a $700 item out only because some splines are missing just kills me. Any help for the terminally frugal????
Replies
Are these splines on the motor shaft?
Or are then a coupling between the motor and pump?
If they are on the motor shaft I believe that some machine shops can fix them by building them up with welding and recounting them.
But It will probably be expensive.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
There are splines on the motor part that appear to be OK. It's the mating splines on the pump section that are sheared off. The are in a recessed area, too...would have to disassemble the pump part somehow to get at them.
Pictures ?
I didn't take pics bec i figured this was a Y or N kind of question instead of looking for a diagnosis.
It's not just a yes or no question.Whether or not it is fixable depends on how it is broken, where, etc. And how much trouble or expense you want to go to.For instance, the inside splines you are talking about may be fixable by a specialy machine shop, at some pretty hefty prices.Or, you may find an epoxy type compound that you can make new splines with. They have that type of thing for making new inside threads, when you don't have enough material left, to drill out and install a thread insert... At the auto parts places. You put the epoxy stuff in the hole, coat the bolt with something they supply, or something like petroleum grease. Insert the bolt, and let the epoxy set up. When done, you should be able to remove the bolt, and be left with the correct threaded hole.You might be able to do the same with the inside splines on the pump.Or it could even be as simple as replacing one part of the pump.A 'simple yes or no', is more likely, when we have more information. The best information being pictures....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Have you contacted the manufacturer to see if replacement parts are available?
Also, if the splines sheared seems like there would be a reason. Is the pump seized?
This happened on Friday, of course, so i haven't been able to contact the manufacturer yet. Thunderstorms had me offline most of the day, but from what i was able to research before that happened, the splines are subject to both abrasion and thrust wear. I noticed the half of the shaft in the pump section moves up and down a bit...not sure if that's within tolerances or not, but i'll make sure the well guys adjust the torque arrestor if it needs it and point this out to them. I also read that a bad check valve can allow the water column to slam back down on the pump. I'm not sure if that would affect the splines, though. I have sandy water, which is one of the reasons we'll drill deeper tomorrow, to get into a better strata. Famous last words!
The starting of the pump wears the splines so its best to have it not start /stop often. A large pressure tank or 2 tanks helps as well as having them properly maintained. They designed these pumps to wear out so you have to buy a new one. No replacement parts for the spline. My last one broke 1 month after the 5 year warranty. These guys are good. Get the extended warranty.
What is the splined part made of? Is it integral with the pump rotor?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
If I recall the spline is steel about a half inch in diameter ,lets say 10 splines. The female part on the pump is also steel or some alloy.
Now, if you had this brand of pump the parts would be replaceable:http://www.bisonpumps.com/deep-well-hand-pump-parts.htm
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Or, (more seriously) if you had this brand, the pump end is replaceable:https://keithspecialty.com/water.pumps.submersible.htm
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
This one was installed in '98, but i never used it much until moving here in 2003. Extended warranty...this pump was supplied by my well drillers, so i doubt i have the option, but i'll check it out. Thanks for that tip.No replacement parts isn't good news. What brand did you have? This next one isn't a Myers, but i can't recall now what it is.
I dont know the brand and am not home to look it up. I know I have used several over the years. I am saying they build failure into the system. Pump guys like it so do pump companies. I once pulled a pump with a tractor equipped with a forklift (all orchards around here have em.) used a big pipe wrench sideways to grip the pipe as a noose made out of a fan belt lifted the pipe. Got it almost out when one of the pipes inch and a quarter joints broke. Imagine a pump with a bunch of heavy pipe accelerating at 32 ft/sec/sec. till it hit 200 feet later. Did I mention all the pump wire coiled around our feet. We WERE lucky no one was hurt. This is one job I leave to the experts.The pump guy was able to grab the old pipe stem and replaced the pump.
I agree with leaving this one to the experts. I removed one hung on cheap PE pipe by raising it with a bucket, drilling a hole through the pipe (full of water, mind you), inserting a big screwdriver, lettting it down, getting another bite with the chain around the screwdriver, raising, drilling, inserting...over 150' of that, but the dang pump came out. I'd started to pull it up with the retrieval cable and found it had rusted off bec the previous owners hadn't used galvanized or SS cable. Yes, the wire coiled around your feet is an awesome reminder of what can go wrong, quickly. My knees were literally knocking so hard the whole time that i could barely walk the next day. I'll try almost anything once for the experience, but tools really CAN make the man!I stuck PVC drop pipe on it and got a couple big guys to lower it back down while i supported the pipe draped across the field. I sold the house about nine years later, pump still working. It was a Myers, which is why i bought a Myers for this house. Quality control seems to have slipped....
If the splines on the motor are ok, the motor can be used again.
Myers does offer a replacement water end for there 3/4hp 12gpm Rustler pump series, list $373.00 maybe less if your pump guy has a good plumbing supply place.
You mentioned sand, if your running sand through the pump it will shorten the life of the pump. If your driller can get you set up to where the pump only has to pass a small amount of sand the pump should last alot longer.
Now if the splines are bad on the motor , it may live another life as a boat anchor.
The splines on the motor are worn while the splines on the pump end are shot. It seems a really bad design to have to chuck the whole thing bec of not being able to replace the part. As soon as i finish my Grape Nuts i'm phoning Myers as a last resort, though i haven't found an account of anyone repairing them. If you don't mind, i have another question after doing more research last night on the Net. I found that there's vertical play in the "wet" end of the pump...almost 1/4" of movement. I was reading about thrust bearings and how they go out if water drops back on the pump bec of a bad check valve...at least that's how i understand it. Should i ask for a new check valve to be installed in place of the old one (can the springs inside them lose their springiness?), or another one in series, to protect the new pump from that kind of wear?
If you have sandy water I would consider a Jacuzzi Sandhandler. I have been using them for about ten years and they hold up very well and individual parts are available if you find yourself in a position of needing repairs.They have a great warrantee as well. At my dealer they swap you a new pump without any hassle should you run into any problems in the first five years. Karl
I've heard of those. I recall when the guys came out last Saturday to install the next pump (to be used in the deeper well, once it's drilled) their talking about Jacuzzi and that they couldn't get something they used to get, but i can't recall which pump they referenced. I'll ask them about that when they show up...should be anytime now. The goal of deepening the well is to get OUT of the sand layer into better-bearing gravel, so perhaps they didn't think i'd need the Sandhandler when they get done improving the hole. <fingers crossed>
Well, just to finish up this story...I got a call back from the Myers folks and found out the case is laser welded together, the ends crimped in. You can pry it apart, but it's not going back together very well.Being round, it doesn't even make a good doorstop. *sigh*
Sand is an abrasive, most submersible pumps in this size range use plastic impellers probably 9 stages in your pump. Each stage has an impeller, diffuser and bowl. The sand caused wear on these parts and the resulting end play.
Hopefully you will get water with less sand when your new pump goes in. I don't think I would put an extra check valve on a new pump, they would probably both wear out at the same rate. Wear one check valve out then put a new one on
Thanks for looking back in and the advice on the check valve. I'll make sure it gets inspected and replaced if necessary.I've come up with another question, if you don't mind. I was reading on a Myer's sales site that they ship a new control box with the pump and were very stern about replacing it. Is this really necessary? I didn't see much point in that...just a bunch of lugs, it looks to me...?
Sounds like the control box was there for an earlier pump and is now only being used as a junction box.
What size pump and voltage are you planning to install?
Old pump was 3/4 HP. New one is 1-1/2 HP. 220V (Aren't all submersibles wired for 220V?)
Alot of 1/2hp pumps are 115volt.
A 3/4hp control box is matched to any 3/4hp pump, made by the same company.
A 1.5 hp motor needs a 1.5hp control box.
Myers makes a 1.5hp pump that does not require a control box, it's called 230 volt 2 wire pump.
A 1.5hp 230 volt 3 wire pump would require a control box.
Putting part of the motor controls in the box enables the pump motor to be smaller.
Some of the newer electronics now alow the motors to be nearly the same size.
McPlumb, You mention
"Putting part of the motor controls in the box enables the pump motor to be smaller."I thought they put the motor starting capacitors in the control box so you don't need to pull the pump if a capacitor goes bad rather than to make the package smaller???I also thought you could oversize a control box in terms of hp rating you just couldn't undersize it. The idea being that the main difference is the capacity of the capacitors in the control box and oversizing capacitors doesn't hurt anything. I have never tried it though.I used to use a pumptec to protect my motor from running dry but last time I bought a pump it seemed that Franklin made a pump protection device that was somehow superior to the pumptec that you could add to the interior of the control box. I think the only limitation was that it could only use it on 1hp or smaller motors. This is one reason I would keep my pump at 1hp.Karl
The motors are sealed, there is no pulling the pump to change capacitors in that size pump.
Most common control box failures are from
lightning
damp locations
water logged pressure tank
Changing a control box is easier than pulling a pump.
But the motor isn't often the cause of the control box failure.
Yes you can run control box that is one size larger than the motor. 3/4 on a 1/2 hp motor, 1hp on a 3/4 motor.
As you get into larger pumps they all have control boxes, or motor starter boxes
The new pump isn't a Myers, but i can't recall the brand. I think they hooked the new one up temporarily for me using the old box, just so i'd have water until they could get the drill rig over here. THey said to be VERY careful not to overpump the existing hole with it...so i have been! I do recall mention of the "2-wire" term as they were splicing the new pump on. I have to study up on the difference between that and 3-wire since i don't get it yet.
two wire means no control box required, the motor starting capacitors are built into the pumpmotor.Three wire pump means the motor starting capacitors are mounted separate from the pump motor in a control box.Three wire is better suited to applications where it is labor intensive to pull pump to repair/replace capacitors.Karl
In addition to the start cap, some motors, are capacitor run, capactior start.They will have 2 different capacitors in them. Those are the more efficient motors..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Some specs would help. How deep is the well, Dia of hole, cased hole, etc.
My take is that you are possibly/probably paying more for the labor than the pump. To reduce the lifetime and pay the labor again, is it worth it? We all have tight budgets and it something worth considering. Another is that there are warranties availble on pumps, such as goulds. It covers later labor and materials and they are not that much more.
As for increasing the existing diameter, The people I worked with in SoCal would never punch out a larger hole. Maybe a local thing, I don't know. Their reason sounds logical. Some comanies willl fracture the hole to open up the flow, but that is also a gamble.
Where I'm from, the holez are in the 350 to 900 ft deep and the hole sixes are in the 5-7" dia. and I am only familiar with hard core drilling and I know practically nothing about mud drilling I have also been told that to try and open up an existing hole that is not producing, it is better to drill another hole and possibly have twice the volume.
If you have a lower producing well, you may be better off spending the money on a storage tank and bladder tank with buster pump. than drilleing deeper or larger dia.
What I have posted is more of things to consider and discuss with the well company.
Good luck, there never seems to be a cheap solution, but I'd still rather be on private well that city water, which I don't have that luxury anymore. Now, I have all the water I can use, as longer as the water district keeps pumping and I keep paying and paying...
P.S., are you still mad at me?
I'm not looking to size the pump...that's being handled with a new, bigger pump and my well drillers are very good. I've used them several times and they have an excellent rep. I'm not planning on using the pump in my well again, just hate the idea of tossing a working piece of equipment bec a small part is broken.We'll be drilling a bit deeper to find a better gravel seam. This is glacial till/Glacial Lake Missoula lake bottom, with repeating layers of excellent gravel, fine sand, and a considerable amount of volcanic ash. My nearest neighbor gets 30 gpm of perfect water at 130'. I'm at 146' in fine sand at 10 gpm. Better water may be 10' away or a 100'. The fellow who did mine used to work for my drillers and it sounds like they let him go. I've dealt with these guys enough to know they'll take that into account when they give me the bill.PS: I haven't had any short-term memory for at least 10 years, so if you pissed me off since 1999, i'm at a disadvantage for carrying a grudge. <G>
Edited 5/25/2009 10:26 pm by splintergroupie
If he's going deeper and adding HP, I doubt the older pump will be of much use in this well even if it was running since the addl HP is going to be needed to move the water up the column. I wouldn't count on it as being a replacement for the new pump if it fails.
Not saying you won't find other uses for it though.
7g
I wonder why she wants to rehab a well pump. I mean, if its well, it don't need rehab?
Ok, long weekend..get me back to work..I'm losing whats left of my mind.
Hey, got the corn and beans in, new garden is 35'x 80'....about killed a tractor and 6' rototiller on shale, but we did it by golly. Planted last night till dark, then it rained most of today! Yeehaw.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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could be one of those aides to self help for the pump? You know Mr Pump your OK, but you could be better.
;^)
<<about killed a tractor and 6' rototiller on shale>>I have one word for you: raised beds.
They will be, I had to scavenge the soil. Running out o planting time window this year from rain, so it is what it is.
BTW, I made a dandy lathe motor from a well pump , but they spin backwards.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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35 x 80 - hey that's 'bout the size of mine as well. Tractors & tillers don't work so good here though... (pool not included)
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Down under those raised beds is a mix of clay cap "soil" that has two states: glue & rock; dense shale or solid sandstone - depending on where you attempt to dig...
Edited 5/26/2009 11:34 pm by wrudiger
Hey! I like those crescent-shaped walking stones! Did you make them? It's the perfect solution to a path i need to make. Thanks!
just like the rest of the hillside - recycled from a neighbor, and I'm willing to bet they haven't been manufactured in the past 20+ years...
I think i can make a form and cast them in place so i don't have to schlep anything. I've used a crescent moon theme in various places around the house and that fits in nicely.
I'm not looking to use it in the deeper well, even as a replacement, but to fix it in case i can use it elsewhere or give it to someone.
Yes, definite repairable.
Art, you were just the person i sent offerings to those gods for, in hopes you would appear. Is this the sort of job where one needs to re-machine something, or can a person break and and R&R it? Myers, 3/4 Rustler is the type.
Having a lathe/welder/metal working tools handy is a definite plus.
Unless you CAN find off the shelf repair parts, full DIY repair would probably mostly be an exercise in "yep, I can fix this even if I could have bought a new pump for working at day job 10% of the hours it will take me to fix"
Lots of options, such as simply putting 2 or 3 high strength fatigue resistant 4340 steel pins thru the shafts (have done that, get about 2 years out of the repair)
There is an old thread "fine welldrilling" where I built my own well drilling rig and drilled my own 8" well - probably spent 300 to 400 hours total, and could have worked OT only 30 hours or so to and paid to have the well drilled! Was more fun than watching ball games though<G> Going thru that 4 foot basalt boulder about 40 ft down was a fun learning experience, as was getting the drill bit stuck in it!
BTW, building a pumphouse with at least a 25 ft tower and a removeable roof is a great asset in ever having to pull jets or pumps out of wells.
Pix is my tower showing lower 20 feet of it, ready to be raised (built on the ground, put big hinges to 4x4 sill plates, pushed up into position with loader.
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Edited 5/26/2009 9:26 am ET by junkhound
>BTW, building a pumphouse with at least a 25 ft tower and a removeable roof is a great asset...<
Or have one that the roof lifts off and all 4 sides are bolted together to allow dis-assy when required. Made mine and sold a few jobs with the same style of PT framing, PT 1x rabbeted and lapped siding and cedar shingles.
I thought about pinning the halves together, but the metal cage/screen would have to be punctured to do it: the pump end of the shaft is recessed inside that cage.I'm not adverse to spending time to fix it, time that the drillers don't have and i wouldn't pay them for. But my god, it's going to kill me to send this to the recyclers... I'll track the fine well-drilling thread down. It looks like you had help from the grandkids beautifying your well tower!
"The thought of throwing a $700 item out only because some splines are missing just kills me."
SPGRP,
$700.00 for a well pump???
A High quality 2HP 220V pump should set you back at most $250.00 at a big box. The rest is labor (it can be a major amount of work to pull a pump depending on it's depth and location) and markup of the cost of the crew.
I think you are wasting your time (the saying is penny wise and pound foolish I'm pretty sure). There are these things invented a while back called trash bins.....and junkyards, now referred to as recycling centers.
It may hurt, but that's probably the best place for your worn out pump.
Good luck,
WSJ
best place for your worn out pump
SG, if you are coming to Blodgett's blowout in August, bring the pump. It may take a few years to get aroung tuit, but if'n I can fix it will send it back working <G>
Maybe we can turn it into one of those Fest demos! <G>
I'm betting he could send you home from the fest with a running motor, at the very least....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Wouldn't be the first time that happened...
ROFLMAO...Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Drillers showed up today and laughed when i told them i'd tried to figure a way to repair the old pump. The eldest son (three sons run the company) told his kid brother that anything left behind would find a permanent home here. They pulled a 20' length of PVC out of the bottom with a nifty barbed thingamee they'd made and said they weren't re-using the pipe. I'd already been ogling it as a manifold for the potato patch. <G> The new pump is a Flint and Walling, made in USA, which i'd never heard of before. It's a 2-wire pump and he's using the control box as a junction box, like McPlumb mentioned. I asked about the check valve and he said they always inspect them, replace if needed.The younger brother stayed and i watched as about $1200 went down a hole this afternoon. Still too much sand. He'll bring more casing tomorrow. I'll write checks. *sigh*I'm guessing on the pump price, but yes, that includes all the trimmings such as pulling, setting, electrical connectors, etc. The last one cost me $700, while it lists for $400. Worth it to me.They were impressed with the pitless adaptor hole in the casing, which they had to patch so they could drive it deeper. I'd drilled it instead of cutting with a torch as they do.Edit: Yikes! I just checked the list price for this new pump on the F&W site: $1400! Well, there goes the tummytuck i was saving for...
Edited 5/27/2009 6:32 pm by splintergroupie
Your cost is about right. Ya done good. Figure city water times months x years and I think you are ahead.
If this were city water....greenhouses, trees, and eventually an acre of landscaping...just couldn't afford it.