Sorry if this seems like a rookie question. I’ve not encountered this issue before. I was asked to complete a basement remodel project that another contractor started and made it not quite halfway through until the homeowner decided he would try to save some money and finish it up. No permits were pulled even though stairs were moved, and there was a lot of electrical, plumbing, and HVAC work done. The homeowner just never got going and now needs it finished. The original contractor would have been re-engaged to complete the project but is booked solid for the next 6 months. I looked at it today and the work looks like it’s all up to code, but some of it is covered up by drywall. The homeowner does not want to get permits at this point even though I gave him 5 very strong reasons for sucking it up and getting them.
My question is this:
If I get a waiver from the homeowner, am I still potentially in trouble (with the city, county, or state) for finishing a project without permits that was started by someone else when the homeowner has specifically requested to move forward without permits?
Thank you for all responses.
Replies
If *you* are doing the work, how will a waiver help you?
Around here, building inspectors look for piles of building materials... sometimes they catch the landscape blocks or piles of drywall before installation.
Other times, it is a neighbor with too much time that makes the call, or a neighbor that the homeowner PO'd at some point in the past seeking revenge.
If it is possible for the city to levy fines against you if you are caught, will that "waiver" help? I doubt it, and how much will it cost you to find out?
Right now, the homeowner and the original contractor are on the hook if permits are applied for.
Sounds like a risky gamble to me.
I would also be thinking about that customer wanting to save some money and not pay me later.... hopefully you called the original contractor to confirm whether or not payment was made.
I'm with Dan - Any waiver the Ho tried to give you wouldn't be worth wiping your butt with.
I would not even consider doing he work without getting permits.
Would a quick call to the authority over this answer your question?
My city has undergone a major shakeup in the inspections department when the council weakened the codes to the point that the manager and assistant manager of inspection resigned.
" I still potentially in trouble (with the city, county, or state)"
while first of all it depends on who issues and/or inspects construction.
Where I am there is no state requirments. If you are in an unincorporated area then the county CAN if they inact inspections. Or if in a city they cAN, but not all do.
And I have heard of other places that require permits, but don't have inspections.
Someplace will let anyone pull the permits. Other it has to be a contractor unless the HO swears that he is doing all the work.
so no matter what anyone says here it all depends on the rules and SOP in your area.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The answers to your questions depend on how they do things at city hall in YOUR location.
Myself - I have saved folks from previous contractors before, but they need to work WITH me in keeping it all legal. This HO is already working AGAINST you and you have multiple signals flashing in bright red that this consumer is only interested in cheap, cheap, cheap no matter what laws they need to break or who would get the blame if anything goes wrong.
They are practically announcing to you in bold print that they WILL screw you if given the chance.
So why give them the chance? Now is the best time to leave.
Hint - do you know for a fact that the previous contractor is all booked up?
Or is that what he told this HO?
And gee - why would he have done that?
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Depending on your jurisdiction, the homeowner could get the required permits, take the responsibility and you could just do the work.
They could claim that the previous contractor, say "now out of business" quit on the job, didn't get permits -- whatever story you wanna make up to the city inspection folks, and likely they'd get by with what has already been done.
Are there any photos of th work progressing? Sometimes that can be enough for the city to sign off on, assuming the owner is now "trying to make it right."
Get creative I guess. But it sounds like if you don't get permits, and they catch YOU doing the work, you're going to be on the hook. Maybe you make a deal with the HO that if that happens, they pay the fines?
My parents had some decks built by a one-man show. They opted not to file for permits. City came by, red tagged them and stopped work. They filed for proper permits, paid the fines, etc. No one's reputation was hurt that I know of. Doesn't everyone try to get away with something simple from time to time?
Now there's an honest assessment of the situation LOL!I'm with the others that are suggesting knowing EXACTLY who is responsible.One possible problem could occur if work is done without permits and the contractor is the one ultimately responsible for pulling them. How does a contractor collect his final payments or win a lawsuit if one is filed against him if he didn't set up the contract legally? Wouldn't a homeowner win by default in a legal battle?
Thank you all for your responses. There are some warning signs with the homeowner, but he is a nice guy with a very young family, and I think he's just a bit overwhelmed with life right now. He was referred to me through others who had nice things to say about him. He's not adamently opposed to pulling permits, he just doesn't want to. If I insist (which I am going to insist) then he probably will, and just suck it up--or if not, he'll have to hire another contractor. Thanks again!Tim
Not YOU, JimAllen, but for the OP:
If you subcontracted a project through a GC, would you be required to get the building permit? Most of the time, the GC is responsible...I know, not necessarily for the craft permits, but look at this from the bigger picture for a sec:
If you work for this client, and specify in your "contract" that the "permits are to be pulled by the owner," you should be covered on getting paid. If they don't pull the permits, it doesn't stop you from doing your work. If the job is cited for non-compliance, they are responsible to you only to pay you for your work. You are simply labor on a construction project. If you want to sub-contract certain portions of the work, have those trades sign a contract with the Owner, not you, under the same pretenses.
Just make sure the owner recognizes that he's the fall guy if someone starts sneaking around looking for a reason to cause trouble.
"It depends on the situation..."
Edited 8/22/2008 1:50 pm ET by lindenboy
"If you work for this client, and specify in your "contract" that the "permits are to be pulled by the owner," you should be covered on getting paid."Not if that is against the contracting laws permits proceedurces.In some places a HO can't pull the permits on that type of job..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
In Gainesville, FL when I had a roofing license there, either an HO or myself could get the permit, but regardless who did or didn't do that bit of paperwork, if one of the City inspectors drove by and saw me working on a roof with no permit posted, I'd have been shut down, fined, and would not be able to get another permit issued for other jobs until I had that infraction all cleared up.It all varies according to where you are. Here a permit can be pulled by either party, and is supposed to be even if it is cosmetic work like painting over $3500, but there is no enforcement for that sort of thing, so nobody gets those permits.There IS enforcement for new construction anywhere in any amt though so everyone gets those permits.
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did you notice how many times you used the word, 'IF' in all that?here is another one for you -= IF the law in his location requires that the contractor make sure the permit is pulled before doing any work, he could be putting his license as well as his final payment on the line.Some HOs play this game. They know they can get out of paying when the contractor doesn't have things properly permitted, so they talk a guy into working in the grey zone, then yank the rug out from under him. Then he can't take them to court because he is compliscent in the 'crime' Back to his first Q in the OP, a letter of waiver request only serves to prove that he knew ahead of time that he was doing wrong to work without the permit.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You've made a good point.
I'm too young, optimistic and willing to take too many risks -- someone would go through all that to ruin the guy for trying to help them out? I guess there's a lot about people and clients still to learn. Great that the others had to ruin it for us."It depends on the situation..."
along similar lines, illustrating the point that people will screw ya - painter I know did a "side job" for a client who was an attorney. Told him ahead of time, I'm not licensed, but I'm doing side work to pay for college. Guy hired him, no progress payments, when the work was completed told him :I need your license # before I can write the check.
When he said You know I'm not licensed, I told you that up front, the guy responded, Sorry, then I guess I can't write this check. Never paid him a penny.
True, the painter shouldn't have been working unlicensed. But the point is, you gotta watch your back 24/7 in the business world.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
In the olden days, someone would be in jail for assault and maybe arson.
It is funny how those mineral spirits soaked rags spontaneously combust.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Oh yea! lawyer or no lawyer I'd a got my money or revenge one!;)
I'd be stuffin' potatoes in his Beemers pipes.
LOL!!
potatoes in his Beemers pipes.
Shove 'em way on in there with a hammer handle. Takes longer for the mechanic to figure it out that way.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Go modern, foam in a can with an extra long straw.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Foam is more traceable than spuds. In any given town, pretty much everybody's gonna have a bag of 'taters in the larder, but a limited number of people will have bought a can of spray foam in the last x-number of months.
Besides, potatoes don't off-gas VOCs. (I will be putting my new patented formula for low-expansion crevice insulation--made with air-entrained mashed potatoes and several secret organic additives--on the market within the next several months.)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Good point.
One could always turn a wood whistle out of green wood and place it as well.
I promised dad I wouldn't ever reveal who taught me that one.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Construction Techniques - Potato Chips in Concrete
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From:
PatchogPhil <!----><!---->
8/7/2007 9:24 am
To:
ALL <!----><!---->
(1 of 8)
93222.1
Ever accidently dump potato chips in your concrete mix? Worry no more, you actually did a good thing!
08:56 EST, August 07, 2007
Potato chip flavoring protects concrete
Jordanian scientists have discovered potato chip flavoring can increase the longevity of concrete.
Awni Al-Otoom of the Jordan University of Science and Technology found sodium acetate -- the ingredient that helps give salt and vinegar-flavored potato chips a tangy snap -- is the key to a new waterproof coating for concrete. Al-Otoom and colleagues note concrete -- the world's most widely used structural material -- is so porous that water soaks in, corroding steel reinforcing bars and meshes that strengthen concrete roads and buildings. That, in turn, causes cracks as water expands and contracts during freeze-thaw cycles. But the scientists discovered sodium acetate easily seeps into concrete and swells when exposed to water, blocking entry of additional moisture. Under dry conditions, the crystals shrink to their original size and allow moisture to evaporate. The net result is "a significant reduction in water permeability (that) can be expected to increase the service life of the concrete," the scientists said. The study is detailed in the Aug. 1 issue of the journal Industrial & Engineering Chemistry Research.
Maybe the next best insulation will be salt and vinegar potato chips! Blocks moisture and then lets the moisture evaporate.
Yep; potatoes is the answer to all our problems.
Rub one in yer armpits, no need for Right Guard.
Potato puffs will replace Styrofoam¯ packing noodles
Potato peelings can be fermented into fuel for trucks.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
stick a couple of electrodes into 'taters, and you get a battery.
But they'd look kind of funny hanging off the back of a cordless tool.
taters...would look kind of funny hanging off the back of a cordless tool.
OTOH you can't slice up a dead LiIon, add mayonnaise, horseradish, and pepper, and call it lunch.
Its an endlessly re-transformable energy supply! Think of it! Potato Economics!
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The story is told that Tim Russert, the late host of NBC's Meet The Press, once dated a potato from an aristocratic family of potatoes. Apparently the parents broke it up when they found out, feeling that a Russert was just a commentator.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Owwwwwwwch. Did you pull a permit to post that pun?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"stick a couple of electrodes into 'taters, and you get a battery.But they'd look kind of funny hanging off the back of a cordless tool."The trick, Shep, is to stuff the 'tater into your drawers and just have the wire leads dangling out..
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The trick, Shep, is to stuff the 'tater into your drawers...
No thanks - already got a couple of them in the drawers, and they're always gettin' in the way!
=)View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
check - maybe they are cross wired and tripping the breaker
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Weak signal - low amperage, apparently.
Or as someone once said, can't shoot pool with a rope!
hahahahaha - just kidding. really.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Not to even mention vodka.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Knew a Lada dealer near here who told me that all domestic (ie: Russian home-market) models of Lada came with a kit of special carburator jets to enable them to run on vodka.
I believed him.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
That reminds me of a joke. You know the difference between a BMW and a porcupine? ;o)
Sometimes the olden days were the best.
Should have called the labor commission. And, the state bar. Most State Bars do have morals codes, and can censure attorneys.
Since he was hired unlicensed, the lawyer was in fact the contractor, and he was labor. Should have called IRS, to see if his withholdings had been filed.
Failing that he should have invested in a couple of cans of spray foam, and filled the tail pipes on the guys cars.
Some time back I saw a housing tract in the framing stage near me that was torched. My first thought - I wonder who didn't get paid.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
"They could claim that the previous contractor, say "now out of business" quit on the job, didn't get permits -- whatever story you wanna make up to the city inspection folks,"Which goes back to my point - why does he want to work for somebody who has to tell lies to get a job done?Trust is the basis of all worthwhile relationships.
What relationship is worth pursuing with a person who is untrustworthy???
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If this job has not progressed beyond the "roughs" there is no penalty for getting the permit now. They don't know when you started or how long it took you to get where you are.
The worst case would be the inspector would want you to open up a wall to see something that was concealed.
Most building departments are pretty easy going on a homeowner/builder
who bothers to get a permit, particularly if this is all inside the house. Since Florida started requiring that all inspectors take a law course as one of our CEUs we are discovering we do not have the power to demand access, even if we do suspect unpermitted activity is going on. Just like the cops, inspectors need a warrant if the homeowner denies access. The only up side for the building department is that since these are civil suits, not criminal charges, a civil court judge can issue the warrant and they are a whole lot easier to convince that you have probable cause since they do not deal with the criminal codes.
Another angle with building permits comes up whenever insurance companies get involved or the house is put up for sale. Some insurance companies now have their own inspectors out and about snooping on homeowners (allowed by the fine print in the policy) and if they spot unpermitted work they can refuse to renew the policy and you might even get blacklisted in the CLUE database.Most of the real estate disclosure forms ask if all work done on the property meets building codes and if permits were obtained. Yeah, you can always check the "I don't know" box, but that is a big red flag in itself.
Unless you really need the work, I'd steer clear of this type of client. No money and no permits, does NOT bode well.
I couldnt agree more, red flag zone. I had a similar situation wth a homeowner who didnt think the permit would fit into his budget. I told him I wouldnt do the job without one. He agreed to a permit, but also turned out to be a con artist. It took forever to get paid and never did get all of it. Dont walk.... run from that job, no matter how nice they seem.
We don't do any work without permits because all of the municipalities around here (in st louis) either have their own inspection departments or they contract out with county to do their inspections.
The plumbing is the worst. They started throwing people in jail a couple of years ago for doing any plumbing work and not being a licensed plumber with a permit pulled. The ordinances have changed to make it absolutely illegal for anyone other than a homeowner or plumber to even change out a faucet.
That used to fall into a maintenance category but not any more. It's kind of crazy.
I would talk to the local governing bodies and determine what permits may be required, and then insist to the homeowner that if he wants you to do the job then it needs to be permitted. It will not matter one bit if you have a signed statement from him or not. It is also possible that the inspector will come out to the site and make an inspection before any work is done so that they know what has been done and what has not.
sully
To tell you the truth, I don't know whether I would be fined or what..and I don't want to find out.
I always bend the truth and tell the HO that I'm not allowed to do the work without the permits, otherwise I lose my contractors license.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
tell them you would chance it, but you know from experience there's too many finks in the world
hahahahaha
just kidding. really. honestly, I was just kidding
- Huck (heading for Siberia by railcar)View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I'm sure that's the first time he's heard that joke LOL
I'm with the croud who wisely insists on the permits. However, I can also relate with the guy who needs a project to pay bills and might be hesitant to pass one up. So the following is what I'd do if it were a matter of not paying rent and getting evicted or doing the project without the permit.
I wouldn't risk doing the project as the general, but perhaps as a sub with the client as the general. I'd want a contract that says so and clearly states the general (client) is responsible for the required permits. Unfortunately, you are smart enough to know this is only a work around to skirt the rules, and a judge might also see it as such so you'd be up a creek if push came to shove.
As a practicle matter I'd also want the money up front since the odds of getting paid are very low if the project is red tagged and the client gets upset with you for some reason, any reason.
The down side to this is that an argument could be made by the client that you only intended to skirt the rules and that you were in fact acting in bad faith as the general without permits and you might have a hard time defending against a civil suit to take back some of the money paid up front. Still a bad deal for you if things go bad...and odds are high that they will.
Perhaps a better solution for you is to pick up the cost of the missing permits and wrap that into what you're charging the client.
If it's easy to see any items needing an inspection (walls not closed up, or easy to open up), you might get a sympathetic ear from the city if you simply say this is what you have to work with, it's obvious that not everything was permited prior to your arival, but you would like to take over the project properly and would like the building official to consider everything up to that point as existing with respect to your permit. This situation is not new and it plays out this way many times in the few areas I've lived in. Focus your actions and language on what outcome you want, not what's happened in the past, and avoid pointing fingers in case the client gets bit and bites you back to "even the score".
The last time I agreed to working without a permit, close to 10 years ago, I specificly told the client I would leave the permit up to him, he would be the contractor, I'm just doing whatever he told me to do, and a month down the road when his buddy from church said he could do the job cheaper than what I was charging everything went south, the client had a case of memory loss with regard to the permit situation and I was suddenly the convenient scape goat.
The client's friend from church was smarter than I was and insisted on permits, so I was left with all the fingers pointed in my direction and an inspector headed to the job site. The inspector actually defended the quality of my work to the client, who was looking for anything to be wrong to avoid paying me. In the end I learned an important lesson, which I have seen others repeat every year since then.
There is a reason established contractors avoid such jobs, expect everyone to be on the up and up, and have solid contracts to ensure the project will either play out as planned, or if not, that they won't be taken advantage of.
The critical teachable principle in this situation is that a client's trust, good will, and interest in treating you equitably quickly disipates when THEIR view of the situation, realistic or not, changes in THEIR mind. Do what you can to minimize problems, and there will be problems.
Good building!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Excellent post Don!
90% of his are worth the read!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There have been many posts reflecting the wisdom of years on the job. IdahoDon--that was great. Thank you all for taking out the time to answer my question. The path now seems clear and I know what I need to do. Although I need the work, I certainly don't need to have my reputation--new as it is--on the line for something like this. I do see some warning flags.This question and your responses are exactly why I signed up for this forum and I'm so glad I did. Thanks again.
If your attitude on the job and your trade skills are half as good as your gratitude and verbal writing skills here, you will do well.
Go forth and remo.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's much better to learn from others' mistakes than to make them yourself. Spending time here with the likes of Piffin and others pass down information much like the story telling oral traditions of the old days, but in a much more timely fashion. It's quite amazing really. Part of being a professional is giving back to those coming up by sharing experiences, what worked and didn't.
As for me, I should be the poster child for "No good deed goes unpunished." I've been burned enough times for going out of my way to help a client that I am much more careful about who I'll take on as a client and how far I'll go out of my way to protect them from themselves. In a way I've lost the innocence of a carpenter who simply likes to build and help clients have the best outcome possible, and am at the point where construction is now a business.
Being a nice guy, means you get walked on. As Steven Covey says in The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, it's much harder to work toward win-win solutions where you do the right thing for the client, but also keep yourself in a possition to be able to stand up for yourself. This year I was thrown under the bus by a guy hired as a lead carpenter and a client that fell for his bs. Had I listened to the advice of many of the established contractors here I would have had better contracts, which is a mistake I'll never make again.
I'm using an attorney who works a great deal with small contractors and he feels bad for us as a group for the antics of our clients. We have a complicated product to deliver, with uncertain timelines and costs, that is also emotionally tied to the client, and to top it all off clients typically only know enough about building to be dangerous and are quick to assume the worst--a tricky combination to be sure.
Good building!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.