My wife was insistent that we hire the neighbor kid to reroof our house. He had insurance and worker’s comp, but I’m not sure he’s licensed as required in Michigan.
I come home today and the reroof over the existing shingles is “done”.
1. No new flashing at the two skylights and none at 30LF of vertical wall either. He did reflash the step flashing at the chimney because I specifically requested it, no new flashing at the bottom of the chimney though.
2. No new drip metal at rakes and eves.
3. There is a 1 1/2 ” inch exposure diffference at the cap. The roof is square, I checked.
4. There is a dip in the shingle row due to not snapping a chalk line to keep things straight.
5. The new shingles overhang the old at the eves by 1/2″ unsupported.
6. I specifically told him to make the first course exposure 1/2 of the usual to make the shingles lay flat. He did it on the front and one place on the rear but ignored it on the back and side.
Am I being overly picky? Dosen’t new flashing make sense for a new roof even a roof-over? Shouldn’t shingle courses be straight? No new drip? Have things changed since I did roofing years ago?
Please help, I haven’t paid him yet,
Kowboy
Replies
As far as the flashing, there is not any reason to replace the edge flashing on a re-roof or lay over, unless there is visible rust on it. The flashing on the skylight and chimmney and sidwall flashing is probably ok as well as long as there is not any surface rust. Usually a layover is somewhat of a stopgap measure anyway and the flashing and such are not replaced. If there is rust or flashing failure the old shingles should be torn off and all flashings,etc. need to be replaced. We shingle close to 50 or 60 houses a year and have not chalked a line for any thing but valleys and hips ( or for meeting up around a dormer) in 10 years. The reason being that horizontal lines can't be seen from the ground on all but the steepest pitches. Ridges and shingle lines are not visible from the ground even if they are not perfectly straight. UNLESS you climb up on the roof and eyeball it from the side, but you dont view your roof that way under normal circumstances. I'll bet a dollar to a donut you didnt see the ridge or shingle line till you got up there. If the roof doesnt leak and he did the job as he agreed to, I would pay him. The shingle ovehanging the drip edge is common practice and is an acceptable edge finish
Edited 6/29/2006 11:18 pm ET by woody1777
BS - a roof without flashing is not a roof
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The question wasnt flashing or not, it was wether to replace the old with new on a layover. Flashing is vital i would agreeA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
There is a way to do nail-over with good flashing instead of ignoring it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe there is a way, but in ten years of exterior construction fulltime I have yet to see a way to do it that I would want on my house. A lay over is a stop gap, half a## way to do a roof. There are so many reasons that it is a bad idea, that do debate the right way to do it is kinda pointless. In my very humble opinion, anyway =)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
Edited 7/4/2006 11:01 am ET by woody1777
>>>>>>>>1. No new flashing at the two skylights and none at 30LF of vertical wall either. He did reflash the step flashing at the chimney because I specifically requested it, no new flashing at the bottom of the chimney though.
Was he supposed to reflash everything?
2. No new drip metal at rakes and eves.
That's typically not done on shingle overs. What was he supposed to do?
3. There is a 1 1/2 " inch exposure diffference at the cap. The roof is square, I checked.
4. There is a dip in the shingle row due to not snapping a chalk line to keep things straight.
Was the old roof laid right? He should have been able to follow the old shingles or maybe he did.
5. The new shingles overhang the old at the eves by 1/2" unsupported.
Shouldn't be a problem - I overhang mine by an inch.
6. I specifically told him to make the first course exposure 1/2 of the usual to make the shingles lay flat. He did it on the front and one place on the rear but ignored it on the back and side.
???????????????????
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
>>>>The new shingles overhang the old at the eves by 1/2" unsupported.
>>Shouldn't be a problem - I overhang mine by an inch.
Practices vary; in areas with frequent significant wind, the overhang is reduced
In NW Ohio, houses in-town can have the overhang - get out in the country nearby with few trees and even 1/2 overhang can be a problem.
I wont due go overs due to everything you said about flashing. If you wanted everything re flashed u should have ripped it off and started from scratch. Did you try to save a buck????
Good info above. I have one question that in my mind will clear it all up though. What does the contract call for? DanT
All:
To answer a few questions, when my neighbor's house burned down, the embers singed my roof, so I'm spending my insurance company's money. I gave a tear-off consideration but didn't think it was necessary at least when I was spending my money. My roof has no valleys.
The contract is ambiguous. I'm just trying to find out the industry standards for roof-overs if there are any.
If you were a raindrop and you fell on my step flashing at my skylight, that flashing would direct you UNDER my new shingles. Am I missing something here?
From the ground, the roof does look pretty damn good.
Thanks for all the replies,
Kowboy
P.S. Mojo:
Even after I pay for this roof, I have the same money I started with as it is an insurance claim. I'm not trying to screw anyone, just trying to make sure my roof is installed per industry standards. The more you guys answer, the more it looks like it is.
Edited 6/30/2006 6:28 am ET by Kowboy
Are you sure the roofer didn't lift up the existing flashing and slip the new shingles under it?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon:
I am positive he didn't lift the existing flashing and slide the new shingles underneath. I could have probably lived with that. He just wanted to nail shingles, pick up a check and go.
I spoke with a very experienced licensed contractor friend of mine in Ohio today and without telling him the who of the project, asked him what he thought. He said he would reflash on a roof over, no question.
Kowboy
Well I guess it comes down to what the contract says. You had reservations about his potential for quality work so you did hash all the issues out beforehand, right?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"Are you sure the roofer didn't lift up... "He didn't hire a roofer. He hired a neighborhood kid who is masqueading as a shingle layer
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Depending on the flashing around the skylight that's possible but how about a dormer. I usually see the second roofs shingles just butted up to dormers. It'd be pretty hard to get new step flashing under old siding on a dormer sidewall.
This is why I don't do roofs.
Headstong, I'll take on anyone!
>>If you were a raindrop and you fell on my step flashing at my skylight, that flashing would direct you UNDER my new shingles. Am I missing something here?
Where would I go aftert I slipped under the new layer?
I think I already answered this. You would run under my new shingles until you hit the apron flashing at the bottom of the skylight and you would be back on top of the new shingles until you hit the gutter.
Kowboy
in theory at least
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"What does the contract call for?"It calls for the wife to be happy
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
pay the man
sounds like you were trying to buy a bmw with a yugo budget
did i say PAY THEMAN?
and try being a man about it
,save some cash, now lets see how i can screw him
if you did roofing before you know all these answers you are just looking for a reason to screw the guy
Now you have two layers of shingles to tear off before you will have a roof.
If I remember right, are you the one3 with a low pitchj about 2/12 too?
it's a shame to have wasted all that money on those shingles to have him ruin the job
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin:
I've calmed down some since my first meeting with him since he tried to collect.
I've got a 4/12 pitch on this roof.
I went up and looked at the skylight flashing. The water will run the length of the skylight on the old flashing until it hits the bottom flashing where it will be back on top of the new shingles. I can live with that.
The shingles on a section of the back of the house have a 4", 4 1/2", 5" and then 5 5/8" exposure the rest of the way up the roof. How the hell does that happen? Fortunately, it's so high you can't see the missing shadow lines. You probably could, but you'd be standing in my lake. I'll have to live with that or have him tear off 10 square or so. He didn't nail the high wind six-per-shingle on this side as I insisted.
He did re step flash my vinal sided chimney chase but he didn't flash the bottom properly. That gonna be a do-over.
I've got about 38LF of ridge and he only installed 24LF of ridge vent. He says it's adequate, but I don't care. It's called CONTINUOUS ridge vent, not fourteen-feet-missing-ridge vent. I think ridge vent from rake to rake looks best and that's what I'm getting, contract be damned.
I wasn't going to let him back on my roof but he's young and deserves a chance to make this right. I couldn't find his license number on the Michigan State web site. If he's unlicensed, he can't legally collect from me, contract smontract. Believe me, when I was licensed in Toledo, I did some work in Michigan and found this out the hard way. I built some spectacular historic reproduction curved porch stairs for a Michigan lawyer (biggest mistake). He only partial paid. I took him to arbitration and won. He appealed in court and spanked me good.
I'm gonna call him soon,
Kowboy
Edited 7/2/2006 5:19 pm ET by Kowboy
Hey, this isn't that landscaping kid from Wisteria Lane going around and doing roofs now is it??
What's your wife got for the kid? That's what I would be asking!
EJ:
Yours may be the best advice I've gotten so far. He is a handsome young dog and in excellent shape. My wife says she's out of town this week too. Mmmmm.....
Kowboy
Did you even have a contract that spelled out what you were getting or was his price so low you decided to pocket some of that insurance money for yourself?
Sounds like you recieved about the same quality work you paid for.
You didn't think to check if he had a lic. before you hired him? I'm guessing you flat out knew he didn't have one but you didn't care because the price was right and now you're upset because you recived a #### job. Fact of the matter is you ordred a half asz job when you went for the re-roof anyway.
the reroof over the existing shingles is "done".
That statement qualifies the answers to all your other questions. A roof-over is a half-measure from the git-go. If you wanted a top-quality job--and from your complaints on this job it sounds like you did--you should not have contracted to leave the old garbage up there for another 15-20 years.
That said, there are times when it makes sense, such as when you know the roof-over is only a stopgap for a few years till you have the time/budget to do it right. That doesn't sound like it was the case here, but I can't pretend to read your mind so I'll let you answer that one.
1. No new flashing at the two skylights and none at 30LF of vertical wall either. He did reflash the step flashing at the chimney because I specifically requested it, no new flashing at the bottom of the chimney though.
2. No new drip metal at rakes and eves.
You can't replace most flashings and drip edges without stripping the shingles over them. If you demanded a roof-over you told him implicitly not to strip. He could theoretically have flashed over the old metal and shingles with new metal, but just how ugly would you want this to be...?
3. There is a 1 1/2 " inch exposure diffference at the cap. The roof is square, I checked.
No roof is square. I checked.
Granted, an inch and a half is a bit much, but you said it looks good from the ground, so drop it. If you'd hired an experienced roofer with years of practice in compensating for the facts that (a) shingle keying cuts vary from lot to lot, and (b) no roof is really square, he could have hidden that difference so you couldn't have measured it in any one place...but you didn't hire someone with those qualifications; you hired a youngster just starting out so you could buy yourself some peace with DW (and to save some dough, too). That makes it your responsibility, not the kid's.
4. There is a dip in the shingle row due to not snapping a chalk line to keep things straight.
Same thing applies to this as to #3. You don't hire a neighbourhood kid at substantially below the going professional rate and then try to hold him to professional standards.
5. The new shingles overhang the old at the eves by 1/2" unsupported.
6. I specifically told him to make the first course exposure 1/2 of the usual to make the shingles lay flat. He did it on the front and one place on the rear but ignored it on the back and side.
The starter course in a new roof should be laid with an inverted row of shingles extending ¾" beyond the drip edge. (Some roofers lay an edge run like this up the rake, too.) Then you lay a normal course on top of that one with zero exposure, so the first course is doubled. The doubled overhang is sufficient support, although it is expected that edge will droop over time. If you don't leave enough overhang most standard drip edges won't function correctly--especially on a 4-in-12!--and you'll have runoff drooling down the fascia and curling back onto the soffit.
Like Grant, I've never heard of laying a half-exposure starter course, and I can't imagine how that would make the shingles 'lie flat.' Where (what region) did you learn that, and from whom?
Am I being overly picky?
Short answer: Yes.
Pay the man. And buy him a case of his favourite beer for you even having thought about not paying him and then trying to get away with it because he's not licensed. You hired him; he didn't hold a gun to your head.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
"Like Grant, I've never heard of laying a half-exposure starter course, and I can't imagine how that would make the shingles 'lie flat.' Where (what region) did you learn that, and from whom?"That is standard for me anywhere I have worked. The extra headlap caused by a full starter course builds up thickness that on a lower slope roof can act like ice damming, and on any roof will look bad especially when the sun is low and shadows are long.
Then the top of each following course of shingles should be laid so the top of the new shingle underbutts the tail of the old shingle, to avoid gaps and voids or visible humps.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've done so few layovers, I guess I haven't learned the tricks.
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
Neither has the neighborhood kid from the sounds of it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
what ever happen to: "You get what you pay for"
I don't blame ya..I never have and most likely never will. If I have it my way.
Shooo eeee I bought a cap stapler today..Bosstits...and it is the tits.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
Now that you go into it in some detail, I'm wondering if we're all talking about the same thing. Obviously on a roof-over, I wouldn't lay a doubled starter course for exactly the reasons you state. But when Kowboy mentioned a half-exposure first course, I got the impression he wanted the second course laid over a single-thick first course at half the usual tab exposure.
That's not what you're talking about, is it?Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Possible he meant something else
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The only time I tried to use the short first course followed by butting the new tops to the bottom of the old, the reveals of the shingles did not match, 5 5/8 over 5". Given that the roof was a budget job, I couldn't justify the extra waste. Like most others here, we don't do roofovers, so I can't speak authoritatively. We would replace the skylight flashing but would probably leave the wall flashing alone unless the wall was in a particularly exposed spot.
Ultimately it hinges on how good your warranty is. We have had to go back and fix a valley that was improperly done. The roof took 5 minutes to fix. The sheetrock repair and repainting took 25 hours. The neighborhood kid probably gives a driveway guarantee, good til he reaches the end of your driveway.
The saga continues….
I tell our handsome-as-hell-kid-across-the-street roofer (I guess anyone young enough to be my son is a kid) that if he extends my ridge vents rake to rake and properly flashes my chimney, I’ll pay him the $3,500.00 balance due. I’ll live with crazy shingle exposure on the back, slightly crooked lines and the lack of high-wind nailing.
He shows up this afternoon with his two helpers and they set to work. After a half an hour or so, I go up. The extension ridge vent doesn’t match the existing and it’s gotta go, two completely different profiles, even from the ground. I go back to check on the flashmaster helper and things don’t look good. The missing apron flashing he is installing doesn’t color match anything in sight and doesn’t extend under the step flashing. Flashmaster doesn’t have a clue, obviously.
I explain to all three how to properly flash a chimney, but Flashmaster keeps interrupting me. I’m getting a little agitated and tell him to shut up and listen. When customers owe me over three large, I am quiet when they tell me to be. I explain that if you added all the roofing experience of the three of them combined, it wouldn’t add up to half of mine. Flashmaster is unimpressed and can’t shut his mouth to save his life. He calls me stupid. I throw him off my roof and property. He challenges me to a fistfight. For the slightest instant, I consider lifting my shirt and showing him the .40 Heckler and Koch with the twelve round magazine on my hip in the Kydex Galco holster, but I realize that may be brandishing and may cause me to lose my Michigan Concealed Pistol License. I calmly walk down the 4/12 pitch, into the house and put my pistol in my safe. I would let this punk kick my butt before I would waste a perfectly good bullet on his sorry ignorant ####. Incredibly, Handsome watches silently as this transpires and as Flashmaster walks away up the driveway.
Helper 2 cuts the ridge for the additional vents while Handsome goes for the proper vent. Now that things have calmed down a bit, I explain that I’m really a very reasonable man. He disagrees and tells me I shouldn’t be so picky since this roof is an insurance job and isn’t costing me anything! I swear I’m not making this up! Where do these kids get this stuff? Have they never had to collect on a job before?
Handsome gets back with the ridge and they finish up. I go up to inspect and of course, the replacement replacement ridge vent doesn’t match the original. Surprise, surprise. It’s a lot closer than the first try and I’ve got to get these idiots off my roof ASAP. Apparently the word continuous means 9” short of the rake on each end also.
As they’re cleaning up, I explain to Handsome that I’m going to get a bid on the chimney flash and I’ll be retaining five hundred of the thirty-five I owe him to cover it. I also explain that when I had my shop in <!----><!----><!---->Toledo<!----><!---->, my no-pays were 2% of gross sales and that as a ServiceMagic approved contractor, I have a customer satisfaction rating of 4.8 out of a possible 5 so I’ve learned a thing or two about pleasing customers in the last thirty years. Maybe he should take notes. I told him his lack of action regarding Flashmaster was inexcusable.
I doubt he’ll see any of the retainage; I’ll probably flash it myself. I’ve paid $4,900.00 for 23 square of 35 year laminated shingle roof-over with ridge vent, labor and material. Since he is unlicensed in <!----><!---->Michigan<!----><!---->, I had no legal obligation to pay anything, but I had him sign a lien waiver anyway. I’m certain I’ve learned more from this experience than he has.
Kowboy
Edited 7/3/2006 7:03 pm ET by Kowboy
I'll have to let the testosterone rinse and dry off that post before I can comment on that....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the laugh, I really needed it.
Kowboy
Your post reeks of sour grapes.If you are so much more experienced, why didn't you just do it yourself? Or at least qualify the contractor before hiring him?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon:
I suggest you reread my posts. I have given this obviously inexperienced crew an undeserved second chance to right their wrongs and I'm rewarded with an invitation to a fistfight.
I appreciate your perspective though.
Kowboy
Edited 7/3/2006 10:10 pm ET by Kowboy
As per your request, I read your post once again.You start out by telling us that your wife wants to hire this guy to do the roof, so you do. You come across a few issues that were not previously agreed upon and start to get excited.Now you're giving lectures about roofing practices and considering pulling a weapon to prove your point, while at the same time giving a lecture about customer service.How does your wife feel about the job?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon:
I wasn't kidding when I said earlier that my wife is out of town, so she hasn't seen the job. As I've said previously, it looks pretty good from the ground.
Kowboy
I think his screen name pretty much sums it up.
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
You're so good why didn't you roof it yourself. I'm continually beat out of money by people like you. Low ball money and the scope changes daily, and then an add-on before he can collect. None of which is in any kind of contract. The reason you are using a neighborhood boy is pro's won't deal with you. Take your business to h*ll
Cat:
I suggest you also reread my posts, especially the last sentence of the long post.
This kid is unable to enter into a legal contract with me under the law. Despite this major shortcoming, I gave them a second chance to mitigate their mistakes and overlooked a few. I paid him all but 10% of his money in lieu of his inability to flash a chimney which he indisputedly agreed to.
And you still think I'm ripping him off? Please explain what I'm missing.
Kowboy
next time you feel like pulling your gun...do it and put it to your head and blow your brains out. What kind of man needs to carry a gun anyway? Lotsa friends i guess.
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Do you really think a gun is gonna intimdate a roofer?
Looky here Pal, we risk our lives all day every day..yer all hat, no horse.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
Sphere:
Please reread my post. I made NO ATTEMPT at intimidating anyone. When the punkster (I wouldn't demean your trade by calling him a roofer) challenged me to a fistfight, I did the manly thing. I turned and walked away.
I like "your all hat and no cattle" better,
Kowboy
I was on the first cup o' coffee..I mighta read stuff inacurately..but here is the skinny and straight. IT has been said before me.
You can't reflash well on a roof over..you just can't. I spend a goodly part of my life doing flashing and gutters and roofing in general.
If any HO even came close to expecting more than they bargained for ( which I am not accusing you of) and tried to back up their stance with a firearm , or "show of force" , that HO is getting a lesson , before he can fondle his trigger. Period.
I don't use violence, I'd rather have Gunner knock up his cat..LOL
Seriously, I'd screw you so bad. you'd beg me to tell you the secret...and you'd gladly do it.
No, I didn't read yer post with that small font and un broken with spaces for paragraphs. There ya are.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
Sphere:
I've seen pictures of your work previously and was quite impressed. That's why I post here, to get the comments of people I respect. Your second-cup-of-coffee post was fair and I appreciate it.
I typed my long post in Word and copied it. I'll pay more attention to the font next time. My apologies.
Kowboy
All is cool.I was just ranting as well. Tuff morning already. And getting worse as we speak..my bad.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
all hat, no horse- thats good =)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
Edited 7/4/2006 11:01 am ET by woody1777
I consider lifting my shirt and showing him the .40 Heckler and Koch with the twelve round magazine on my hip in the Kydex Galco holster
Oooh ... big man!
my no-pays were 2% of gross sales
So, is that supposed to justify you not paying him? Everyone shouyld only collect 98% of their billing, and you're going to make sure that the kids "donates" his fair share.
Since he is unlicensed in <!----><!---->Michigan<!----><!---->, I had no legal obligation to pay anything
Morals and ethics be damned!
Grow up Cowboy. Apparently you knew the kid was inexperienced, and you decided to teach him a lesson, rather than help him learn proper roofing technique. Do you have trouble looking in the mirror?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
You left off an improtant part for context when you quoted me. "For the slightest instant, I considered..." Punks who attempt to start life-threatening fistfights on rooftops should be mindful that some may not go as expected. I put my pistol in the safe as a deliberate de-escalation.
I mentioned my previous collection rate to demonstrate that I know how to select and please customers and a bit of this knowledge would serve him well. It had nothing to do with my paying or not paying him.
Despite have no legal reason to pay for a half-assed job which I'd given him several attempts to fix, I still paid him 90% of his money even though it's still not complete. Sounds pretty moral and ethical to me. I slept like a baby last night and looked teriffic in the mirror this morning.
I did not know the kid was this inexperienced, my attempts to educate him on proper techniques were met with scorn and a fistfight challange.
And it's Kowboy with a "K" thank you very much,
Kowboy
I can't roof, so I'm not commenting on the technique.
But I was amused in a sophomoric way to read your detailed description of your firearm. Sure siounded like you were trying to impress us. Didn't work. Maybe if I spelled my name with a k and swilled beer and threated to throw kids off a roof I might have been impressed, but I'm long out of high school.
Maybe youwere trying to help him learn proper roofing methods, but it sounds like all you did was make them mad. How you teach is as important as what you teach. You get an 'F' for this one.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 7/4/2006 11:34 am ET by FastEddie
Fast:
On this July 4, 2006, I make no apologies for exercising my first and second amendment rights nor for my fondness of firearms.
I'm gonna go swill a beer,
Kowboy (with an unapologetic "K")
your a freekin idiot that would get a lesson if you held my cash
the worst part was - you had plenty of chances here to ....maybe not back down but ya had to keep on bein a tuff guy
come up on any of my roofin crew with that attitude,plus your not payin all the cash............. lol
man you must work in an office to be so niave
your lucky the guy didnt rip your head off and sh*t down your neck,i know my guys aint skeert
we risk life and limb every day to please not a clue jackasses like you
cheap as i can not happy i'll keep callin ya back
get a clue this aint no video gameDue to recent budget cuts the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice.
I'm a tough guy alright. A tough guy who turns his back to an invitation to a fistfight on a 4/12 rooftop. A legally armed individual who locks his pistol in his safe at his own peril to avoid escalation and the potential extermination of a punk. You tell me who's the bigger man.
Kowboy
Edited 7/5/2006 1:44 pm ET by Kowboy
sorry bud, but you sound like an asz.
just out of curiosity, how much did you pocket on the deal from the insurance company?
This thread has turned into a flaming pile of crap!
It makes me sick to read this stuff.
This stuff of telling someone to shoot themselves is absolutley ridiculous. I wouldn't tell a customer or any other human being for that fact to do that if they did rip me off. I am suprised and disappointed with the responses to this thread.
Kowboy you are the customer and you weren't happy, you have a right to be happy with what is being done with your house.
Things obviously escalated out of hand on the job because the clowns refuse to make the customer happy. What the heck is wrong with people? I would and do on a daily basis go the extra mile to make customers and GC's happy. I like showing my face in my neighborhood and being able to hear how happy people with the service I provided them.
Who in their right mind bids a roof job without reflashing it? I haven't heard of such stupidity. Hope whoever practices this has a great insurance company.
I hear about this crap daily, about so and so not doing this, not doing that, but still paying them as not to cause problems. This is WRONG, you aren't happy you shouldn't pay. If something isn't in the contract negotiate something so everybody is happy.
BTW I have used a drip edge for layovers, it goes over shingles and all it's a C-style with the top part of the C being longer to nail on the roof. It requires no stripping of shingles.
Kowboy if you aren't going to have him fix this "roof" then pay him and get his phone number and contact info. Be sure he knows that he is responsible for any water damage to your home, as in it will be coming out of his pocket to repair plaster, drywall and so on. If he acknowledges this pay him and mend the fences dude, he lives in your neighborhood it shouldn't be a war zone.
Can't you hear the violin playing your song.
A lot of what you said is correct. Including that this has gotten out of hand.
because the clowns refuse to make the customer happy. What the heck is wrong with people?
Maybe the kid thought he was doing a good job ... professional ignorance. If the client was/is as good a roofer as he claims to be, this would be a good situation in which to help the kid learn the finer points of business and the proper roofing techniques. But it sounds like the client had a chip on his shoulder and was setting him up to fail.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I thought we just keep shooting water in the clown's mouth till his balloon explodes...
ooops...can I get my quarter back?
Be on the midway
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
I guess that I am a little different than most people, if you know a better way show me. I like to learn new things, tricks to make my life easier and my product better.
I checked my ego at the door when I started doing this for a living. I don't care if someone calls me stupid to my face if he or she is smarter than me.
We have all dealt with customers we haven't seen eye to eye with, being able to walk away on common ground is priority #1. I think the young man in question should have shut his mouth and opened his eyes and learned something.
I don't know everything, never claimed to either so when one of you guys tell me to shut up and listen, guess what I'm gonna. I am still young and have a lot to learn, you got a better way show me, thats why I am here.
Can't you hear the violin playing your song.
Eddie:
I take full responsibility if I sounded like I had a chip on my shoulder, which I don't. While words and phrases come easily to me, I do strruggle with the tone of what I write. Yours is not the first time I've heard this fair criticism and probably won't be the last.
Thanks,
Kowboy
Thank you very much. Finally someone reallly read my posts and had the guts to publicly disagree with the mob.
Refreshing,
Kowboy
My neighbors house burned down. The embers from his fire caused the following damages to my home:
1. Roll-out awning...............................................................................$1,600.00
2. Remove existing roll-out awning and install new...............................$500.00
3. Replace front porch rug........................................................................$50.00
4. Repair 4"x4"x1/2" deep burn hole in deck..........................................$200.00
5. Powerwash exterior and repaint deck................................................$700.00
6. Reroof .............................................................................................$5,400.00
I got a check from my insurance company for $7,434.00, as I have a $1,000.00 deductable.
Yeah, I really made out on this one,
Kowboy
"But I was amused in a sophomoric way to read your detailed description of your firearm. Sure siounded like you were trying to impress us. Didn't work."I had the impression he was practicing his writing skills for a Mickey Spillane type paperback novel. All the parts are there - his wife wanting the kid working the job, wife is out of town though, maybe never to return. a roofer's body found in a ton of shingle wrappers...It oozes with suspenseall over a couple hundred bucks
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
kowboy.... from previous posts and threads i think you are a better person than the one who came across in this thread
hindsite is 20 / 20... but next time... i'd ask the board for some pointers BEFORE hiring the roofer
layovers are special situations.. the existing roof and other circumstances dictate when and if.
on our layovers we spec breaking back the rakes and installing drip edge.. running soldiers up the rakes
we start with a 5" first course & 10" 2d course.. then tuck each succeeding course..
it follows the old roof even if the old roof is wrong ( judgement call )
we rip the cap and the overlaps and install new.
on sidewall flashing we overlay
on chimneys the existing LEAD flash is reused after inspection.. if it is deficient, we charge to install new lead flashing and let it in
lots of overlays are not done correctly.. it's almost the nature of the beast... just the fact of it being an overlay seems to be an invitation to cut corners.. by it's nature it is a corner cutting job to begin with
you handled the situation differently than i would have.. but given the problem of dealing with an unknown contractor.. instead of one of my trusted and tried subs, i would have spelled out all of the steps and made sure we were on the same page.. you didn't , and you weren't
so then you were in salvage mode...
at that point i would have returned to step one and gone thru in detail with him what i wanted so they could get paid... and there is no reason i can figure why they wouldn't be able to redo the flashings at the chimney.. unless it was unuseable.. in which case it would be an extra anyway...
Happy Fourth !
BTW ... i'd probably send him the balance.... and chalk it up to lessons learned .. by him and you... bet he would remember you in a better light
and don't bring your guns to town
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike:
Thanks for your input and especially weighing my previous posts to provide context for this one. I'm sure that ability serves you well.
Sincerely,
Kowboy
All:
It looks like we've said all there is to say about this but I have been wrong before.
I have to express my gratitude to everyone who has posted, flamers included. I didn't come here to hear "Yeah, you are 100% right, Kowboy". I came to get my #### kicked if I deserved it and apparently some thought I did. I have found my best friends, my wife included, aren't shy about tellling me when I'm wrong, so welcome to the club. That is priceless.
You guys are the best,
Kowboy
Hang around awhile, why don'tcha?
You may be worth knowing.SamT
After taking all the previous abuse-I'd say you're a good man to admit and accept the fallout-good or bad.
You sound alright, sorry for the insults I flung out and the assumptions I made.
I told my story to my sister-in-law and she told me the following:
She had a roof insurance claim several years ago. She found the first crew the insurance company sent out so unprofessional that she made them send another. The second crew began the roof repairs.
Away from home during the day, her cell phone rings, it's the neighbor. The neighbor tells her there are three squad cars and an ambulance, lights flashing, at her house because apparently a fistfight between the crew broke out on her roof.
I swear I'm not making this up.
Kowboy
Edited 7/5/2006 9:08 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 7/5/2006 9:09 pm ET by Kowboy
I believe your story. But ... why did the insurance company tell her what roofer to use? Ismn't that a conflict of interest.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
That's a good question. I'll ask her and get back to you.
Kowboy
Just a suggestion but if the Contractor is someone named "Rufus Leakin" I would move along to the next name in the phone book.^^^^^^
S N A F U (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
I'm going to try to post a picture or two, I'm new at this:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18621451361.jpg&s=f10
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18621433695.jpg&s=f10
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18621424536.jpg&s=f10
Pic #1: Flashmasters apron in the right of the picture stops short of where the non-existant left side step flashing should land on top of the apron.
Pic #2: Black step flashing on the left side stops before landing on non-existant apron. Lots of black goo though.
Pic #3: Just turn your head or your screen. I didn't try Photoshop to turh the picture. I reflashed the chimney and installed a cosmetic shingle to cover the apron. I took the picture before I wiped off the black goo, of which there were tons.
I took these with my new Samsung 1.3 megapixel cell phone, emailed them off my roof to myself and posted them here. Got goo on my new phone too.
Kowboy
Edited 7/6/2006 9:51 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 7/6/2006 9:53 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 7/6/2006 9:55 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 7/6/2006 9:57 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 7/6/2006 9:58 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 7/6/2006 10:00 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 7/6/2006 10:19 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 7/6/2006 10:21 pm ET by Kowboy
Well I learned somthing tonight but Ill go to bed confused.
I judge the most outstanding post in the thread going to Mike Smith and I agree . He said a lot for a feller that dont say much. <G>
Tim
Piffin:
While I agree my writing skills still need practice, I have authored articles for Solid Surface Magazine and Old House Journal. My work has appeared in Cabinetmaker and Custom Woodworking Business and a stone trade paper of which I can't remember the name.
Maybe I should try that novel....,
Kowboy
I think there's something there
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I mentioned my previous collection rate to demonstrate that I know how to select and please customers and a bit of this knowledge would serve him well. It had nothing to do with my paying or not paying him."
And everyone here agrees you did a good job of teaching him that he needs to learn to select his customers better!
I agree completely. We would have both been much better off had his customer selection skills been better.
Thank you,
Kowboy
Let's see if I've got this right: According to your own philosophy, I ought to tell you to shut the F up and listen to me, throw you outta here when you refuse to do so, and then think about pulling a gun on you when you get mad and wanna fight.
Sorry, dude. I've got better things to do.
"Bye-bye, mon cowboy."
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"Let's see if I've got this right: According to your own philosophy, I ought to tell you to shut the F up and listen to me, throw you outta here when you refuse to do so, and then think about pulling a gun on you when you get mad and wanna fight."
No, you don't have it right. Not even close.
1. I NEVER told Flashmaster to shut the F up.
2. I threw Flashmaster off my job AFTER he called me stupid.
3. I NEVER thought about pulling a gun.
Ridiculous distortions of the written record will not stand. Check it yourself.
Kowboy
you got what you deserved and your never gonna get anything better because you are a scumbag who doesn't have the brains to know how to get the best out of people...if we lived in a caste system you'd be one of the people picking through the diapers at the dump.
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
The flaming is getting out of hand.
I see two problems with the situation.
First doing a shingle over is a poor idea - BUT - there is no reason that new or reworked flashing can not be done with over shingling.
Second is if Kowboy knew what should or could be done, it should have been absolutly clear what you expected at the outset. You apparently are familiar with contracts and specification, why not have clear documents when it comes to your own house?
No doubt about it, you hired a wannabe roofer that had only a minimal idea of what makes a good job. That is the key issue - you hired him with out qualifing him.
Terry
"The flaming is getting out of hand.<!----><!----><!---->
I see two problems with the situation.<!----><!---->
First doing a shingle over is a poor idea - BUT - there is no reason that new or reworked flashing can not be done with over shingling.<!----><!---->
Second is if Kowboy knew what should or could be done, it should have been absolutly clear what you expected at the outset. You apparently are familiar with contracts and specification, why not have clear documents when it comes to your own house?<!----><!---->
No doubt about it, you hired a wannabe roofer that had only a minimal idea of what makes a good job. That is the key issue - you hired him with out qualifing him."<!----><!---->
Terry
Terry:
With the exception of a shingle-over being a poor idea, there is no difference between your post above and my sentiments.
Thank you,
Kowboy
Edited 7/5/2006 1:35 pm ET by Kowboy
No, I was complimenting Mike Smith and actually I just posted to you by mistake . Should have been all.
Roof over took a beating in this thread and I dont agree if its done correctly. It makes solid sense down the road for me with rentals. I guess I had never thought of people running it in the ground as I roof my own, so Im careful.
To the way the author handled the situation , it could have been win win. I too think he made money becuse all of my adjusters figgured roof replacement not nail overs. If he didnt get a strip paid for then he didnt get the full blessing from his insurance comapany. They will pay tear off , drip edge , dump fees , etc. The fees they set are very handsome to most as they often pay the highest in town.
If he would have hired a young guy to help him roof it , it would have been rewarding to both and much cheaper. Ifn he didnt want to get on the roof thats what good subs are all about .
Tim
here's a roofover i did last summer
2d layer... the original are Bird 3-tabs
the new are Certainteed Landmarks ....
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 7/9/2006 10:56 pm ET by MikeSmith
I really dont know why doing a roofover over a single layer has gotten such a bad rap here either. Its done here all the time. I havent seen any more problems than with tearoff and re shingling. A large percentage of the work here is insurance work right now so tearoffs are more popular.
a lot of roofovers are done when they shouldn't be..
since most homeowners let their roofs go to the point that shingles are curling and broken, etc... the existing roof is not a good candidate for a roofover.. but they get done anyways
also , roofovers lend them selves to bump-in-the-night experiences... they can be done in aday and the roofer is down the road
our code will not allow a roofover if there is more than one layer on the roof ....a good rule..
iv've worked on roofs that had 5 or more
once again.... the roofover , by itself, is not the problem..it is the roofer doing the work Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Good point, that is probably the best explanation so far.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
Exactly, that is why I wondered why 90 percent of the replies to this thread seemed to imply that a roofover was hack work or always a bad idea. Like most things it is not black and white.
someone post me a message so I can stop looking at this thread?"
stop looking, already.
thanks, but for some damn reason it didn't work, guess I'm stuck with this thread popping up with an "Un-read" message
so go back and read it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!