I have a customer that wants a roof(3 tab shingle) for a 5/12 pitch ranch. No flashing except bath vents. It is about 14 sq. They want only me to do it b/c they trust me I said I would do it b/c of the pitch and the simplicity of it and I need the chinch. I have done very few roofs before. I am going to have one helper tear off and haul the bundles, but I am going to do the installation by myself. I thought it would take me 6 days. Is this a relistic time frame? Thanks in advance .
red (the newby)
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Listeners write in about haunted pipes and building-science tomes, and they ask questions about roof venting and roof leaks.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
You're hardly a newbie if you've been around since 2002. But you need to fill out yer danged profile.
When things are going well, I figure you can lay about a square of shingles per man hour. Other things like felt and drip edge obviously take more time.
Allow plenty of time for a good cleanup. Doesn't matter if you do a good job on the roof - Leave a few shingle scraps in the bushes and they'll think you did a lousy job.
We obviously don't know what state you're in (Since you haven't filled out your profile) but check your local laws. In Illinois you have to have a license to do roofing for hire. I don't know about other states.
There was an article in the Boston Globe (either yesterday or sunday) that described a number of roofers who have carved out a nice business niche by removing and replacing roofs in a single day.
Those are the guys who thing black pookie=chimney flashing......
No they aren't - well some maybe, but for the most part, they are the guys who have finely tuned crews that know how to work and hustle while doing things right, each man having a job to do.
I have worked on a few crews like this, and Hazlett operates that way too, very professionally keeping the trash picked up and the house protected from rain. Your comment is defamatory and sounds ignorant.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, touche'-maybe I should pick on plumbers instead ;-)
It wasn't meant to be defamatory, and it ain't ignorant cause I learned the hard way, on my own house, and I know enough to know better than to let that kind of work pass muster, usually....but I go by the two out of three rule...faster, cheaper, better-pick two. Maybe you get all three, and if so all the best to you....
There is nothing cheap about a fast quality production crew. Roofing is rated hourly so there is incentive to be fast, but that does not prelude quality amoung professionals who intend to be around for more than a year at it.My outrage was with your assumption that if they did it in a day they must be doing poor quality work.There are plenty of poor quality roofers who are slow, yah know.And there is no law against a quality rpofer getting fast
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"There is nothing cheap about a fast quality production crew."Yep....but the problem comes when the crew is making low wage, the firm is taking the gravy, and the quality is mediocre at best.....
I gotta jump in here at last! there was so much good early advice by people who know better that I never bothered jumping in but just help those along who know the deal. "There have been many good posts here".
This ain't rocket science or cabinets its roofing!
Me and one guy bang this out in 2 days kickin butt and working hard 9 hour days .
We both rip at the same time. When one side is on the ground , I go to work with paper, ice shield then bang it out straight as hell while he cleans up. "Piffin said he'll do the bucket work"!
Roofing can go fast and get done perfect.Its all about setting your self up for success and knowing what your doing.
Two amateurs should double that time to four days if they are comfortable with heights and work like men and have the right tools.
You could hire someone who knows what they are doing "that would be 9 out of ten roofers". So don't pick the tenth one please!
and pay about $3000.00 to do the job
14 sq. with a 5/12 pitch simple roof with a helper. Even I would be done in less than six days.
Three days is realistic. Maybe less.
Rich Beckman
This signature line intentionally left blank.
Can you dump the tearoff right off the roof into a dump or trailer sitting in the driveway?
Single story?
Helper skilled with roofing shovel? (Tearoff is more than 1/2 the job. )
If so, 2 days. 3 or 4 days tops without any experience.
I forget what our house and garage work out to, but I'm guessing in the range of 18 squares. The last crew did it in one day, with time to spare. Of course that was 4-5 guys, and I got the impression they'd done this sort of thing before.
If you're going to take 6 days then you need to plan ahead to be ready to tarp & lath it if rain threatens.
Planning ahead re the tearoff is important. The previous crew (good crew, bad shingles) took two days, and did the far (least accessible) side of the house first. That way they were walking across the old roof (which they didn't tear off right away) when working on the far section. You don't want to be dragging tearoff scraps across the new roof.
Both crews positioned a dumpster in the driveway directly adjacent to a corner of the house and dumped most of the tearoff directly in the dumpster, vs tossing it on the yard and then picking it up. Using roofing forks they were able to tear off the old roof in large chunks so it was easy to toss in the dumpster.
PS: Gonna sound like an OSHA guy here, but I really don't think that it's a good idea to do high work single-handed. You're a little too inclined, eg, to stretch to reach something rather than ask your helper to fetch it.
I do one or two roofs each year, mainly because it's a quick in-and-out job that's easy to price and set up. Typical homes of an age that need re-roof around here are simple gable roofs at 4/12 and 18-20 squares. Even with our relatively limited experience, my helper and I still do the tearoff and reshingle in between 2 and 3 days depending on temps and how close we can get the dumpster positioned. We pay the bit extra to get the shingles and felt landed directly on the roof - well worth the money.
Roofing is one of the top five most dangerous jobs, nationwide. It's right after commercial long line fishing and logging. 5/12 is pretty safe but it's still not smart to work alone.
A fast pair of guys, shingling a 5/12 together, can easily do two square an hour, including paper, flashing and drip edge. The gun never seems to stop, once they get going. Of course if you're going to hand nail and don't have much skill at rolling nails in your off hand, you'll be slower. And if, as you say, you haven't done many three tab roofs, you're going to spend some time snapping lines, both horizontally and vertically. You'd do yourself a favor, if you talked the customer into using architecturals.
"A fast pair of guys, shingling a 5/12 together, can easily do two square an hour"LOL - That is not a fast pair, that is just barely making average. I rountinely laid 15 - 16 squares a day and was off the roof often by early afternoon to go do an estimate or whatever I had and felt like.
And that was hand nailing alone.An inexperienced guy is going to be lucky to get a square an hour once the thing is dried in and stocked all ready to lay.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<I rountinely laid 15 - 16 squares a day and was off the roof often by early afternoon to go do an estimate or whatever I had and felt like.And that was hand nailing alone.>>
Man...that hydroponic system must be puttin' out some ex-ce-lent hybrid. 'S all I can say.
Anyway, I was only trying to give our fellow tradesman a frame of reference, like he asked. Wasn't planning to start a pissing contest. Not off a roof anyway.
BTW, I never got any faster than about one square an hour and I could only do that on straight runs, no kickers.
;)A square an hour is the industry average. No arguements or pissing match. I just don't consider it a FAST rate is all. Nobody should be embarrassed to get that rate
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Three experienced roofers would put new shingles on your ranch in a little over three hours. Over Christmas vacation, my wife and I stripped and re-roofed our ranch, on one side, in two short days. She doesn't climb on the roof, just keeps the shingles coming, a few at a time.
The big issue is weather. If you are going to take more than a day, you need to be able to cover the roof to keep the weather out. You could end up replacing or repairing ceilings, floors, cabinets, furniture, etc. Roofs are not a place to take your time.
As a word of caution, roofing is dangerous. If you are working more than 6' off the ground, you need to follow OSHA fall protection standards. Your workers need to be trained in fall protection and you have to be able to prove it. An owner would be pretty stupid not to check that you have the necessary insurances and experience. If you, or anyone that is working for you, get's injured, you have some serious problems. You are not exempt from the law just because you live in the boonies, although, you may get away with it for a while. The consequences can be severe. There is a lot more to doing construction work than just putting up materials. Having a judge explain it to you, is not the way to go.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I may be able to offer a decent comparison, as I'm not a roofer but I did my Mom's house up in Massachusetts last year.
About the same size as yours, two-layer tear off, 14 sq, single-story ranch, 4/12, two chimneys to flash, one on the front, one on the rear of the house. Access? Had one ladder going up the front side of the house. All materials were hauled up a ladder on my shoulder. Used 40-yr architectural shingles, so had more bundles to haul than you will since these were 4 bundles to the square.
Day 1: Drove up (90 minute drive) and started working mid-morning. Tore off first side (back of the house) in the morning, found damage to some decking, went to HD (gone 2 hours) to get replacement deck boards and a few miscellaneous supplies. Replaced first three rows of 1-by decking across the back eave of the roof. Renailed the entire roof with a nail gun. Installed F8 drip edge. Put down two rows of Grace Ice & Water, felt above that. Started shingling, got maybe a third of the way up the back side of the roof, maybe 2-1/2 square? I stopped right below the chimney.
Day 2: First I tore off second (front) side, then went back to finish the first (rear) side. Shingled up to then step flashed (lead flashing) the chimney. Replaced the vent stack boot.
Mid-afternoon of Day 2 my wife drove up with my two kids, the kids helped with general labor, cleaning up the debris from the tear off and loading the dumpster, bringing me nails, feeding me shingles, etc.
Finished shingling the first (rear) side of the house.
I had to repair/replace a couple rows of deck boards on the front side as well. Then re-nailed all the decking on the front side. Then did the same F8, Grace, and felt on the second side and shingled about 2/3rds of the second side, stopped just shy of the chimney on the front of the house.
Day 3: Step flashed the front chimney, finished shingling the front of the house, cut the decking at the ridge back a bit to install a continuous ridge vent, shingled over the ridge vent.
Counterflashed the two chimneys with lead counter flashing.
My kids did most of the yard cleanup, my mom rented a roll off dumpster.
So, three days. I don't work terribly fast, but I'm methodical and don't lounge around. I'm more like the tortoise than the hare.
Slow and steady.
Six days? Should be quite do-able for you and your helpers.
Mongo
Man, I remember that thread.....
You are hired ;-)
Hired? I thought I was slow!<g>
No offense at all intended, but I'm kinda picturing you like Mongo in Blazing Saddles, size wise-& I bet the actor was a smart cookie, to boot
I used to be able to put in a pretty steady pace, but the years have done caught up with me....
Trust me, no offense taken.
Nickname was given when I was in pilot training in the USAF, and yup, it's based upon Blazing Saddles.
The name has stuck. My wife and friends calls me "Mongo", my nieces and nephews call me "Uncle Mongo".
"Mongo just pawn in game of life..."
Mongo
You know your own rates netter than anmybody here, as well as the job conditions.
There was a time that I could tear off and reshingle eight squares in a day if everything went well.
I have also been on jobs where it was all I could do to averafge one square a day off and back on.
I once saw an old man who had retired from the sheriff's dept do his house. he got if all torn off and dryed in in one day - about 14 squares.
Then he spent the rest of the summer it seemed re-shingling it, patly because he hated squating down, and partly becaue he was trying to do it only in the cool of the morning. I think he got half a square a day or so.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
red,
A lot of good advice so far.
I just looked up the last job I did. 21 square, single tearoof, new arch shingles. Two valleys, two chimneys, and misc. plbg vents.
I don't roof everyday so I am not that fast. Two guys, avg'd. 2 square an hour.
Couple of tips:
Get a roll off dumpster close to the edge line of the roof, toss the debris right into it. Spend $30 bucks on OSB to protect the driveway from the dumpster.
Find a supplier to deliver the shingles w/ a boom to the rooftop. Paying extra for this is much better than humping 80# bundles up a ladder. I schedule the delivery for the late AM on day one, tear off the ridge and paper it in, then set the bundles along the ridge. Plan it so you don't double handle material.
Make sure you know what you are tearing off, even if you have to remove a shingle or two. Don't assume that it is a single layer. Double tear-offs are more than twice as hard, IMO.
Waiting till the shingles warm up a little can make tearoff easier, they come off in larger sections when warm.
Hope this helps.
"Waiting till the shingles warm up a little can make tearoff easier,"That is quite variable, depending on type of shingles, age and condition they are in, and whether nailed or stapled. Sometimes colder is better, sometime hotter is nicer.but tearoff work is always hell.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, your right it can be variable. I was just thinking of that last job.
When we started at 7:00 am (May or June) they would come off almost one at a time. By 11:00 am the sun had hit them and one guy could hold onto about 3-4 courses while the other used the tearoff shovel to peel a "ribbon" back.
We tore off the first 1/3 in almost the same time as the last 2/3 due to that heating.
I'll second your statement- "tearoff work is always hell."
3-4 days and have the supplier place the shingles on the roof...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I did one of my own houses in four days by myself. It was only 12 sq though. Day one, tore off one side (2 layers) and dried it back in with I&W, felt, and drip edge. Day two, humped and installed the shingles. Day 3... repeat of day one on the back. Day 4... repeat of day two. Day 5...... finish the clean up and rest! 10 pitch if it matters any. But if you can squeeze the 12 man days worth of labor out of the job then go for it. You shouldn't have a problem getting it done though if that's your main concern.
You did well. That pitcch can double your time.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It was like the most humid week in August that year too..... thunderstorms every early afternoon. I won't forget that week any time soon! Roofers earn their money.View Image
When I built my house I roofed it myself. Hand nailed, before I owned any pneumatics.22 square, but an 8/12, not as steep as yours.Had to hump the bundles up on the roof myself.July, a week of no rain, but all sun and 95 degree days and 85%+ humidity.When I crawled off that roof, my wife thought my eyeballs looked shriveled up like prunes.That was the last roof I shingled until I did my mother's. Gots to take care of Maw!When my shingles die I'm thinking metal. I've always wanted a metal roof.Mongo
Yeah, I'd do it for Ma too. I always wanedt a green metal roof for some reason myself. The wife couldn't seem to get her head around a green roof when we built our new place though. That's all right because I don't think I could have gotten my wallet around it either. :)
If nothing else....roofing makes you sleep good. View Image
If roofing leaves you too sore to sleep good, at least it will make you sleep on your own side of the bed!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
As i read it the Q seems to be more as how long we think you will take not how long a regular roofer would take, Now i have no idea how strong you and your helper are or how much you know, My guess will be tear off one side and paper one day, tear off other side and paper, I think you may be snapping lines and if you have not done much you will be slow and dont forget your gonna be hurting, different movements on your body, Roof it in 3 days, One day clean up ridge So 6 days, How fast i would do it do not matter, If you know a roofer you might be better paying him a day or 2, Dont tear off more then you can paper in one day you dont want to be buying new ceilings, Take your time and put toeboards down you can slip fast on paper and granules
A couple things to keep in mind -Think safe! That might cost extra time.You mentioned tht the reason you ae getting the job is not because you are a very experienced skilled roofer, but beause THEY TRUST YOU.So be sure to know how to do each thing they are trusting you to do right before you start. For instance, if this has a chimnney that needs reflashing, be sure their trust is not misplaced in someone who doesn't know how to run flashings. Study up and practice firstandDon't bite off more thann you can chew. Have a tarp readdy and take one side of the roof at a time as some others here have mentioned doing. You can't predict the weather six daays in advance. If you can, you have a future on TV!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I would hire day labor for the tear off, a dumpster for the debris and two guys to help with the dryin and shingles. rent if you dont own a roofing nailer and save yourself time vs hand nailing. You can do this in 3 days as long as you can manage your crew. There is no reason to try and work yourself to death in 6 days when you can complete in less. Then find more work. Bid the job on squares instead of T&M. Pay your laborers 10 per hour and work them into the ground. (I prefer Mex workers cause they outproduce anglos any day on a roof. ) If you had more guys with nailer experience you could do it in one day. In and Out I make tons of money on reroofs and even better nailovers.
Three years ago i did my neighbor's 25 sq. roof in trade for a 4WD truck. I ripped off all the old shingles, though the owners disposed of debris. I repaired and reflashed the where the intersecting ridgelines rotted, had maybe 8 vents to cut around as well, and a skylight to reflash. Refelted with 30#. The architectural shingles were del'd to the roof, hallelujah, installed with air.
I kept close track of my time: 104 hours, half of which time it was snowing.
Probably the most expensive old truck i've ever owned.....
Pretty good job and time all things considered.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
the may/june FHB will have an article featuring a similar roof to your project.
how long should it take YOU?
working without killing yourself---------4 very comfortable days.
1) tear-off and felt in one side
2) shingle it.
3) tear-off and felt in 2nd side
4) shingle it.
how long would it take me?----well, in the article it took us one day. It was a 14 square job with 4 roofers working----short day also-----plus long lunch
In the past--solo---MANY times I would tear off and felt in one side of a roof like that in the morning--and shingle it in the afternoon.also--since working solo---I would sub out the clean-up-------crew would arrive about 10-11:00 am---and in an hour or so clean up the tear-off debris
the next day i would do the second side solo as well.
nothing un-usual in that at all.
doing a re-roof now as a matter of fact. started yesterday at 8:10----------layed a mere 7 square--left at 3:45----plus took a 45 minute lunch.---included 4 valleys.---weather permitting will finish it today by 12:00---about 5 sq. remain.
If you can---sub out the debris clean-up----here it would cost $10-$12/ sq.---for your project less than $300--less than the dumpster cost----and you don't have to load the dumpster.
good luck,
stephen
well I finished it today---packed up and gone at 12:26
yesterday it hit 80 degrees--------- today i finished up in snow flurries.
bought materials for tomooroows job(weather permitting of course)----and then replaced a waste stack flashing for a customer on the way home( fast $120---also in flurries)
stephen
Yeah, a few days ago we had temps in the 80. This morning it was 16F, 20MPH wind, and blowing snow.One reason why I'm glad to have an inside job.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
A rule of thumb
The rule of thumb is about 2 and a half hours of total labor per square, since your roof is simple and walkable, six days should be plenty. Dont buy into that BS the one reply said about doing an 8/12 22 square by himself in a week by hand. The guy thinks a 5/12 is steeper than an 8/12, so if i were you id skip the forums and get some professional advice. If i were bidding your roof i would alott for 32 total labor hours, and you figure your tear off guy will take about 14 out of that which leaves you with 18 total labor hours, always overestimate a little. Good luck
If you were bidding this roof, you'd clearly be a date late and a dollar short.
No BS. Not from me anyway.
adda-boy wrote:
Dont buy into that BS the one reply said about doing an 8/12 22 square by himself in a week by hand. The guy thinks a 5/12 is steeper than an 8/12, so if i were you id skip the forums and get some professional advice.
BS? No BS. My reply was to Dieslepig. His roof was a 10/12. My roof was an 8/12. So my roof was not as steep as his.