My wiring scares me – how do I rewire a house?
My house was constructed in the 1920’s. Over the years the house has been renovated but in the not too distant past (70-80’s) the house was mostly gutted but the workmanship left much to be desired.
I have found a couple of instances where the old knob and tube wiring had been tied into modern lighting and wiring. When I went to replace a light fixture today I found exposed wiring touching the box. Upstairs this summer I found that they had used lamp cord impeded into a plaster wall to operate an overhead fixture!
Decided tonight I better replace the wiring before the house burns down.
I am a pretty handy individual but have not replaced wiring in existing walls. On TV I saw an electrician use a large hole saw to make strategic holes in to walls and ceilings to run new wiring. This seems like a good option to me. Is there a better way?
I have read the FH article and cannot run wiring along the baseboard, as it is not removable. Most of my house has had the plaster replaced with drywall.
I will be employing a licensed electrician to hooks things up once the wiring has been feed throughout the house.
Replies
>>I will be employing a licensed electrician to hooks things up once the wiring has been feed throughout the house.
That's the person to ask, then
Mainly because most electrician's will be hesitant to do what you're thinking - its entirely possibl;e to screw things up when you're pulling the wiring and they don't want to take that type of risk.
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Trev, I'm with Bob, and I'll come in a little harder.
I do small electrical stuff - but if I'm going into walls, or I find things scary in a house I'm working on, I call my electrician.
I'm doing some stuff on my own house now, and my guy has been here. My knob & tube is in good shape and I'm running new circuts into the area too - he is my authority and nothing gets installed without him to energize.
The code will have changed since the last reno; better products are available; and, besides that, he carries insurance both comp and liability. I've seen cases where insurance companies will not ante up on a claim without proof a licenced electrician did the job.
If you die in a fire electrically caused, that's one thing. If your wife and kids are hurt, and you are left,.....
Get an electrician.
Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
I differ a bit from the last three posters. Not in your case, but in general. I don't find electrical wiring something that is beyond the range of a thoughtful, careful homeowner who is willing to spend more time reading and studying than pulling wires. I'm licensed in my own professional discipline but not in electrical, plumbing, framing, structural, concrete, etc. Yet I feel strongly that I should be allowed to build/repair my own house if I can meet the local standards (e.g. by city inspector for applicable codes). And do so, repeatedly.
From your questions, you're not there yet. And I do agree with posts 2,3, and 4 that it will be well neigh impossible to find a licensed electrician to make the connections to wires that you have fished through the walls. From your prospective, what you propose is very reasonable. But why would an electrician what to earn $XX/hour from you and scratch his head over your methods, accept more liability, and sleep less well at night? Why not just earn the $XX/hour from someone else and do the whole job, start to finish, and be confident about it?
A bit like asking a surgeon, "Doc, I got out my appendix, I think I kept everything sterile and got all the bleeders. Could you close it up for me?"
What I should have included in my first post is I called in an electrician the first time I found some questionable wiring. It was decided at that time that in order to save money I would run the wiring and he would do an inspection and hook it up.
Told me he simply dislikes the tedious task of running new wiring in old houses.
I still haven't got around to replacing the original bad circuit. Going to install pull down stairs to gain access to the attic to make life easier. This is my first solution to my wiring problem. Killing two birds with one stone ...better access to attic in order to replace wiring and new storage space.
"(electrician) told me he simply dislikes running new wiring in old houses...."
Trev,
Sorry dude, but you better re-think using this first guy (electrician).
Get someone else ( a licensed electrician) who is comfortable with installing new wiring. Ditch your first prospect. If the guy doesn't want to run wires, he really is of no use or benefit to you at all.
BTW, there is more to it than just finding ways to "run" some wire. You need to know what size wire to run based on anticipated amperage draws...such as...how many receptacles do you plan on running in a room? do you need to split the receptacle so half stays hot and half is switch controlled....do you have baseboard heating concerns, or window box AC concerns...how many lighting runs will there be.. GFCI concerns.etc, etc,... A good electrician will not only know where to run your wires, but will know what guage and no of wires to run for maximum efficiency.
ALSO...in addition to running "straight" electrical stuff, now is the time tio also incorporate electronical needs; such as cable TV/ telephone upgrades, home theater wiring, computer stations, etc. It will be far easier and cheaper to have your electrician "wire you for the future" with these upgrades now, than to do this sometime later down the road. Better to only have to tear up your house this one last time; if you catch my drift.
Choose someone who is familiar with installing all these facets.
Davo
I agree with the others who think a "plan of attack" is called for. There is no substitute for a complete branch circuit diagram or summary before and after a project like this. Also, get some garage sale sticky labels and mark J-boxes and outlet covers with the breaker # that powers them or goes through them. You might come up with some interesting discoveries that will require re-wiring.
Start with the service capacity and decide whether it needs upgrading from the pole. How many free circuits are available in your current box for expansion? If it is fused, well, replacement is called for IMHO. Do you need a new main service panel with a cutoff? Look at each room and decide what power you want in the room, such as 3 or 4 separate 20A circuits for the kitchen and appliances, a dedicated 20A for the dining room, etc. Actually, this months "This Old House" has an article on the 10 wiring problems in houses. I think I had 8 or 9 of them, and some they didn't discuss, like "no neutral." =8-O
Most houses with K&T started life with a 60A 120 or 240 V service. That is way inadequate for the electric needs these days. Adding a larger new panel at the start makes rewiring easier (you can locate the panel near the kitchen and bathrooms where most power goes anyway) and will add to the value of your house if it is easier to add things like central A/C in the future. Also, upgrading my electric and main water line reduced my insurance by $40/yr so some of the cost can be recouped. I hired guys who worked by the hour and I took the day off to clean up behind them, ask questions constantly, and make "executive" decisions when necessary. Old house electrical is a different ballgame that new construction, and it involves a different set of skills. You might want to find a guy skilled in that type of work who will know where the vent lines are in a wall before he cuts through the plaster.
Like others, I wonder about an electrician who would rely on wire that you pulled. Pulling wire in old houses is rarely trivial and too much force can easily damage a pull. Also, with a full basement and a full attic it should be possible to rewire everything in a house without making a hole in the wall other than for receptacles and switches. The soil stack or central chimney provides a place where basement to attic runs can be pulled. The only exception would be first floor ceiling lights, and fortunately that wiring is mostly protected and still good. In a worst case scenario, X-10 in-line modules and wireless remote transmitter switches can solve some of those problems.
You mention knob and tube. Is it strung in the attic and is it buried in insulation in the attic? Might be best to plan on replacing that wiring at some point so you can add to or upgrade the insulation, ditto for the walls if they too are still uninsulated.
BTW, I just finished insulating my under-roof area which sits behind a knee wall in preparation for getting my son's room ready.
I have K&T up there, and the insulation on the wires is in good shape. Where there was no wiring, I put R28 into the joist bays and R14 crossways above that. Because I did not want to rewire, I put 4x8s over the joists where the wiring runs, and insulated the platform above it. I still get R40, but I safeguard the wiring below.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Davo,
Excellent advice. When possible, and within the budget, I run 3/4" PVC for the CAT5, fiber optics, cable, etc.... If I can, I basically circle each room with a raceway. That way, when the next technology comes along, it's a real easy fish-tape from station to station.
skipj
I'm going to take a slightly differant appraoch than other answers.
Not that in the end you may not need to call an electrician but I believe you can do some priliminary things first..
first you need a plan of attack that is safe and offers you a reasonable chance of success.
Grab a pencil and draw a sketch of each room and space. carefully go around and list everything that is electrical in the space..
No, not the things that are plugged in, rather the outlets, switches and lights.. plug simple tester into each outlet. (it can be as simple as a lamp that is turned on) try the switches does it affect an outlet?
then go to your fuse box or circuit breaker. make a list of the fuses/circuit breakers..
Do you know what each one does?
Can you find out safely?
For example with everything switched on what circuit affects which outlets?.. Try all of the switches when you have absolutely identified each switch and outlet flip off a circuit breaker / unscrew a fuse and try to determine what it affects. Carefull there may be hidden surprises here. It is not unknown for what seems to be a Kichen circuit to also be wired to the garage or the attic light that you didn't know you had.. you need to be absolutely certain.
Next comes the real issues,
what do you want to achieve? do you want more outlets in the bedroom, do you want to be able to run an airconditioner without blowing a circuit if your wife turns on her hair dryer? whatwever, list them down.
Go back to your sketch and redo it with your new goals listed and a plan for dealing with any future growth..
Now you are getting ready for calling in some help or doing further reaserch..
Most homes are wired when they are torn apart or not yet finished.. the reason is the difficulty that is involved in getting wires in place safely and without a lot of damage.. An experianced electrician will know many of those tricks, but they are all time consuming.. and some damage will result no matter how clever and carefull you are..
you can read about them and try some of them but you will need to make some investments in specialized tools and equipment.. Now the point many are saying without explaining.. if you add up the cost of those tools that you may only use for this one house, and the fact that you don't know what kind of cable is required in what location..( No,.. one size will not fit all) add the dangers involved, dangers of fire or electrocution or even just an electrical failure.
plus the risks involved of insurance and future liability. you need to do some honest soul seaching. how expensive is the bid to do what is required by a licenced electrician? Now how much of that is labor? (because that is all you will save) add back in the cost of the special tools it takes to do the job and suddenly the dollars are uncomfortably close together..
The appraoch I would take if money is your major interest here, would be to talk to friends or people who have had work done and ask them who their electrician is.. (after confirming that the guy did good work, was licensed etc. ) and then ask him to stop by for a estimate..show him your new skectch and the electrical panel etc.. explain that you would like him to do the work but that you are willing to do the grunt work.. if he drills access holes for example you'll pull the wires thru.
Keep getting estimates untill you find someone you can work with and who's willing to let you do what you are capable of doing..
the other way would be to get a lot of those do-it yourself books and read up on what you need to achieve.. I gotta tell you that retrofitting a house with electrical is not an easy job.. I have several friends who tried to do it themselves and while one actually succeeded and got a final electrical inspection, in the end it cost him more than his highest quote..
One of the problems my friend had when he rewired his house was that you aren't allowed to just dangle wires.. in other words you need to find some way to put wires into wall cavities and still staple them to the studs at code distance from the surface..
In order to get around that issue my friend put all of his wires in armor flex. the added cost of the armor flex and etc. is why he wound up paying more to get in compliance than his highest estimate..
failure to do that would possibly put the wire in a position where you could put a nail in the wall to hang a picture and get electrocuted..
<you need to find some way to put wires into wall cavities and still staple them to the studs at code distance>
No to be argumentative but here "fished in" needs no staples in the "fished" area(s) just where practicle. Most inspectors realize the difficulties and the damage just for a few staples.
As for helping your electrician....... it's a nice idea in theory but in practice we spend more time (money) teaching the homeowner and the project ends up costing in the end than if we had have just done it ourselves. Believe me I have seen it many times, but if thats how you want to spend your money find some willing electricians like us. ;)
bake
Rewiring is specialized. Especially if you wish to preserve the finish of the walls and ceilings. A lot of electricians dislike it because the variables, problems and issues that can easily blindside you, are legion and the techniques more an art than a science. It can be tedious, finicky, hot , dirty, claustrophobic work. It can also be quite rewarding knowing you are doing something that not many could not handle.
With patience an electrician skilled in old work can finesse cables into just about any location but it is highly variable. Hundreds of feet of cable can go in in minutes while a second cable can take well over an hour to be pulled into a difficult ten foot section.
I agree with the general ideas of the previous posters. Few electricians would want to accept the liability and trouble of making up connections pulled in by a HO. Don't feel bad. Without some training and specific instruction as to what need to be pulled in where and how a newer helper would cause the same worries. The difference being that I'm right there to observe, instruct and correct anything as needed.
I think your best bet may be to ask around for compatible, finding an electrician who will mesh with your personality and goals, electricians who would be willing to take you on as a helper for this job. Even then there may be issues as most electricians have helpers that are already broken in. You would, from the general tone of your post, start rather 'green'. That is not to say your are not good with your hands or that you won't work and learn well but it will be an concern for any tradesman you hire.
I have had it work out. And not. A HO willing to detail what they want in an organized fashion, let me design it and then take orders to meet the minimums work out well if they can get their egos out of the way. HOs that want me to cut corners to save money and debate every issue can slow the job down greatly. Often to the point that I could do it faster and better by myself.
The easiest and safest way to re-do the entire house--and not bust up the walls in doing it--would be to use raceway to contain all new wiring for everything. This is run on the surface; you screw/molley the base track and boxes to the surface of the walls/baseboards/whatever, then you lay in the wires, then you clip on a cover moulding, which is usually available in grey primer which you can pre-paint with a spray gun to your taste--or I think you may also be able to get it in basic colours like off white.
It's not the most elegant solution, but if carefully planned it doesn't look too bad and it works well and is approved in many areas. Your electrician will know if it's legal for yours.
It's quite common to find raceway surface in 1920s vintage houses and even commercial buildings in New York City, where K&T was the rule for many many years.
Note that I suggest you rewire the entire house at one time; that is to say you should decide what you need (and what the code requires) in each room/area, and then install it using raceway. Then have your electrician come in and cut out the entire old system at the service entry and hook your new raceway wiring to a brand new service panel. That way you have no unfound or forgotten surprises left over from the old system. Old wiring is notoriously difficult and labour-intensive to trace. Even new wiring can be a PITA, depending on who put it in. On my last job, I spent an entire day just tracing out the baseboard heater circuits--and the house was only 4 years old. By the time I got through, I figured the person who wired that house was probably a frustrated spaghetti cook in another life....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Thanks to all for the excellent advice.
Took the first step to draw up a plan.
Took off the cover on the circuit breaker box to see which circuits were T&K and which weren’t. The wiring job at the box looks professional and I was happy to see that the kitchen and much of the modern appliances have upgraded wiring. Took of some covers here and there to confirm that they hadn’t just added new wire to old.
Of 24 circuit breakers in the panel 6 are hooked up to K&T.
The older part of the house, which had been drywalled, has not been rewired!!!???
With the help of my wife I drew up a household plan by turning off all breakers but one, and determined which lights and outlets were on a particular circuit. All K&T are on 15 amp CB’s.
I can get to the attic and most of the basement ceiling. The question remains for me what is the best way to fish wires along existing walls and ceilings? I fear the insulation and vapor barrier that has been installed will get in my way.
I will rewire for cable and internet if I can figure out how to run the wire without pulling off all the dry wall.
Since you have the attic and basement available, then it shouldn't be a problem to fish wire up or down a wall as necessary. Don't think shortest path, but rather easiest path, which is usually up, over, down instead of just over. As 4Lorn said, working in an old house is an art. Unfortunately, the diagrams in many books don't correspond to the reality of a 1920's house with plaster walls. Your required tools are a tape measure and a decent deepscanning stud locator. Consider a HEPA filter mask if you need to spend much time in a musty attic. Also lookout for other landmarks such as where pipes go through the floor. Measuring from these makes it pretty easy to hit a wall cavity on the first try. The one area that is dicey is working around doors and windows. I had one outlet installed which required drilling through a doubled top plate, a doubled header, and a single sill plate. That was 10" of old growth fir. It looked like they were drilling for oil with a 7 ft drill extension on the holehawg. That single outlet cost me $175, but another one in the same room cost about $15 so it all evens out.
"Your required tools are a tape measure and a decent deepscanning stud locator"
I would also add an old chalk box w/ new string / fishing swivel & sliding weight on it: helps immensely when fishing wires into old boxes. I have dropped the swivel down the stud cavity & hit the hole in the box many times, use string to pull wire. Need to be careful not to skin insulation when pulling.
Also, they make a remodeling drill bit........bit w/ selffeeding auger on a 5' shaft, hole in end to tie wire to to pull.
I run a heavy wire ( # 4? # 6? depending on new load) into ceiling, tie into a subpanel & run new circuits off that for work reached easier from ceiling eg. 2nd story, ceiling lights.
I find it usually takes 2 to fish wires efficiently, still takes 5x as long as I figure it should.
I didn't have the required work space for a subpanel in the attic, so it was accomplished with multiple runs of 12/3 and 14/3 to J-boxes. Having the new main panel next to the multistory soil stack wasn't just a coincidence. ;-)
I have a fiber optic probe for doing rewiring. Drill a 1/8 inch hole, stick in the probe and you can see the blocking, insulation, whatever is inside. Comes in handy if you try to snake through existing holes or figure out an unusual situation. They cost around $300 these days. MAybe you can borrow one? Has saved me a lot of work sometimes.