Ok, I did bad, and now I want to get some information on how bad? I’ve been in a 1909 house for about 4 years and during that time I have rewired, replumbed, insulated, new walls, new kitchen, new bath (where there was none),,,, but it seems I forgot to get a permit. Now, I have done lots of reading, and asking questions here, and when I had big questions I even had a couple of pros come by and check my work before, during, and after. So far so good, but now I am thinking of moving and selling the house — SO QUESTION IS: What is going to happen?
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I dont know that it makes much of a difference, but you will want to get a 3rd party assessment so that you can justify the value of the house. The town will have to assess it on its own probably when the new owners are there. :)
Lets see what Tim Mooney thinks?
-zen
Tim, Do you know anything about this?
Yea, Ill respond to him .
Tim Mooney
I imagine it's very location dependent, and that the person most likely to jam you up is the inspector that a buyer might hire, and then only if he notices a prob. I've done this twice and no one ever even raised a question ... of course that was in VT where anything goes ...
Just my guess ... Bill.
If your current tax asessment doesn't take into account the additional bathroom the new owners could be irate when their tax bill goes up.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
the new owners could be irate when their tax bill goes up
Or not--depends on the jurisdiction and the mortgage/escrow situation.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
And really, who cares if they are irate about their tax bill? My tax bill went up 25% over the previous year when I bought my house, and it was obvious that no work had been done by the previous owners. Any purchase is an excuse for the city/county to reappraise the house to a suddenly higher value. My tax bill has more than doubled since I bought the house 6 years ago, but my ire is saved for the taxing authorities, not the sellers.
Go to the building epartment in your city/town and get a building permit application with the fee schedule. It should come with a description of penalties and procedures. They don't need to know more than "I'm thinking of doing some work" until you apply for a permit. If you apply for a permit to do something small and they look at your file, upon inspection, they'll know what has been done to the house unless it's all concealed. If you added on, they're going to get you. If it was just updates, maybe they'll be OK if it's up to code and looks professional. You can plead ignorance, but that'll only get you so far. If the locality is known for having a big stick where the sun doesn't go, they're going to be picky. The file for your house is public information and you can get copies of everything that is on record as having been changed. The inspection report from when you bought it is in there, too. Where I am, electrical has to be done by a licensed electrician, no exceptions. Anything else, I can do as long as it's up to code. If it's structural, approval is mandatory and they want to know exactly how it's going to be done.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
to reappraise the house to a suddenly higher value ... but my ire is saved for the taxing authorities, not the sellers
Too true. I learned quickly to dread seeing a "for sale" sign on my block (and there's three up right now--luckily, they are all about 25% too high on asking price).
Chasing that escrow "adjustment" is no fun at all.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
As noted, it depends on where you live.
COnsider getting an experienced home inspector to do a pre-listing inspection for you.
There is a fair amount of subjectivity in home inspections (mainly about how serious any particular problem is) so an HI won't be able to completely advise you as to what another HI will call out, but he can help you deal with potential major stumbling blocks.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Most of what you are worrying about will depend on what is on record regarding your house vs what exists now.
Go to town hall and find out. Might save you a whole bunch of worrying.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Ok, I did bad, and now I want to get some information on how bad? I've been in a 1909 house for about 4 years and during that time I have rewired, replumbed, insulated, new walls, new kitchen, new bath (where there was none),,,, but it seems I forgot to get a permit.
Well you are in a catch 22. You being the homeowner , you may do the work you mentioned with out a license anywhere Ive ever heard . Youre cool there .
Problem is you covered the work with out inspections or permits. The inspector is not going to be able to "help " you now . If you choose to call him he should require you to tear out all coverings to inspect. The state inspector should do the same . The reason is , they cant inspect it covered up. Only a fool would pass it blind.
If you choose not to call anyone and proceed , theres a good chance it will fly. You are in an old house so you dont need any records to sell it . Only new homes require a certificate of occupancy which is required by lending folks. No one is going to be able to look at the work covered , so for that purpose a home inspector is useless to that certain point . He is usually rented by the buyer and then they may ask you to fix the problems hes found . If you are worried , cant sleep and cant taste your beer, then you might employ a home inspector .
I wont advise you here because the state says Im still a liscensed inspector.
Tim Mooney
Tim FWIW, Chicago area some cities won't allow any homeowner electrical or plumbing work. Some other areas like that also.Where I am they don't care what you do inside the house after it is built.
Edited 1/26/2005 10:54 pm ET by Bill Hartmann
FWIW, Chicago area some cities won't allow any homeowner electrical or plumbing work.
Most states allow the homeowner to do his own work in entireity. But ,..... The city can be more restrictive than state . Code says they must meet or exceed state or code requirements. We in fact have several ordinances that are more restrictive. You wouldnt like hearing them probably. It would be legal but not popular to not let homeowners do their own work. The people can change it with their vote.
Tim Mooney
I am in the Chicago area, and judging by all the home improvement stores around here, a few pesky rules aren't stopping anyone..... :)
If you decide to contact the village and ask questions, get a friend to do it. Have that person ask about buying a house that now has two baths, yet only had one the last time it sold, and there is no record of a permit.
Maybe your Realtor will have some feedback on similar situations.
My dad got busted when the patio was redone, and the village made him buy permits for the exterior work that wasn't on record- work completed twenty years ago with another owner inbetween. They caught the pile of bricks on the driveway and stopped in to check.
If a license is required, like for the plumbing, that could be a pinch point.
Best case scenario is no big deal.
Next step is you will have to pay permit fees and fines.
Worst case is the payments and uncovering covered work for an inspection.
How bad depends on the building dept.
There's a town west of here where the building dept inspects every house when it's sold, against the original specs and permits that have been pulled. If they find differences, and no permits, it's triple the permit fees and sometimes they make the HO open walls up to inspect and if not Code compliant, tear out.
Most places, the building dept doesn't have the time to do that sort of thing.
I'd have my own HI look things over. Fix any defects noted. Then find out if build dept inspects on transfer of title or periodically. If not, you should be o.k.
Good luck!
Cliff
I agree with Tim...don't do anything.
When you sell, the new buyers may or may not hire a home inspector. If they do, and they are able to ascertain that work has been done without a permit, you'll probably lose the sale. Thats the worst that could happen.
Your problem comes when you fill out that disclosure. If you are an honest guy, you need to simply sell the house "as is...no warranties on anything....buyer beware". That's how repossed HUD houses are sold, so it's not an unusual way to sell one.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
FWIW, as a general rule, HI's don't check into whether work has been permitted ... some offer that as an add on billed at an hourly rate.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
When you sell the house, you'll probably have to complete a seller's disclosure, and the last time we did that it asked specifically if all work was done with permits. We were able to check the 'yes' box on that one and saddle the buyer with a 2" thick permit file to prove it. On the last house we bought, the seller checked 'no' and since we didn't care, nothing happened.
It seems unlikely to me that the AHJ needs to know about this. You gain nothing by contacting them to discuss it. When you list your house, let your realtor know the situation. They probably won't care either. When you have a buyer, their lender will send an appraiser who will note the condition of the house, and if the work looks amateurish, they may note that too. Sometimes the lender will not want to lend on a house with a lot of unpermitted work, but if the buyer wants it they'll find a loan.
When the house changes title, it will probably be reassessed and the taxes will go up. The AHJ may learn about the unpermitted work then. But... you'll probably be totally off the hook since you were honest on the disclosure. Once the buyer buys it... they bought it.
Good Question, here in Penn the disclosure form (so check your states disclsure form) contains a question, if you did any remodeling on the house and if so where the proper permits taken out. Talk to many people and most dont get permits but have answered the question on the disclosure frome honestly. In the process of finishing the basement and called my local zoning officer(not code office)..... his answer wasnt very clear.....it seems i was not required to have my electrical work inspected but he recommened that I do so, by hiring an inspector.
Dan
get an inspector, who can run OHM-megger tests on the electrical circuits, test the pressurized plumbing systems,test the drain waste and vent systems, write reports about the structure and all those good things,and I feel you should be able to get a new mortgage going...
SCRIBE ONCE CUT ONCE!
Ive got more thoughts.
Part of my job responsibilities have been investigating just this type of thing and others thats sort of related. Contractors get into this neiborhood too.
You are a very recent member and I havent read your posts that I remember . [Ive got a bad memory] You list no information on your profile which doesnt even tell me where you are and that might have some bearing . The main problem after Bob suggested what he did , it got me thinking more about why he said it . Might not be the reason he said it but I dont have a clue what type of work you do. If your work spells out , "I did it my self " to a pro, then youve already got problems you wont be fixing. I dont know . Thing is the work stands at this point , but someone might better look at it if you are worried about the work it self. You havent stated that and I dont mean any offense.
Point two is most inspectors are over worked , and understaffed. They have way too much to do to look for more. They are worried about saving lifes and sleeping well after they get their days work in because of a mistake or somthing they missed .[ ever happen to you ? did me !] On the flip side there are places that are full staffed and well paid. A town thats got some money maker can end up with bucks to spend. Some towns charge fees and penalties to cover the inspection depatment while other towns figgure they should help support it . Some building departments are lax and some are very strict, but that usually depends on the time they have in a day to spend . The stricter you are the more work that generates. Moral of this story is ; I dont know any thing about your building department .
Your problem would add about 10 hrs to an inspectors work load by the time it got redone under permits and codes. Sounds like it would be quite expensive to you as well even if the work was done up to snuff.
Tim Mooney
where i live, if you have more bathrooms than you bought, they'll bust you. also, homeowners can't do electrical without passing a silly town test.
DCS Inc.
"He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church." -The Clash
Go to your local building department and ask about permitting something thats already been done. Its actually not that big of a deal. We have a policy for just such occurrances as in such a large jurisdiction, it happens quite frequently.
Mike
Bit the bullet and call in the city inspector what is he going to do? They will make an inspection and give you a report I find inspectors to be fair and not wanting to burden people like yourself WHO SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN A PERMIT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Sorry, did I say that that loud?