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You are kidding of course. If the employee is hourly they have no wad of cash waiting for them at the end of the job(assuming that you bid the job to make money). Mistakes happen and your bid should reflect that. I was once asked to pay for a door that I nicked. At the time I was making 12 dollars an hour. I payed for the new door gave my two weeks notice and started looking for a job. Every bid should cover the minor mistake. Hope that you really don’t treat your employees like that as it is not fair.
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You are kidding of course. If the employee is hourly they have no wad of cash waiting for them at the end of the job(assuming that you bid the job to make money). Mistakes happen and your bid should reflect that. I was once asked to pay for a door that I nicked. At the time I was making 12 dollars an hour. I payed for the new door gave my two weeks notice and started looking for a job. Every bid should cover the minor mistake. Hope that you really don't treat your employees like that as it is not fair.
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I still kid my tax preparer that he has the most expensive bird blocks in town. This after an employee of mine took all day to make and install them on his 12 X 16 office.
Fired that guy shortly afterwards. When the talented kid who worked for me flaked out i canned him too. That was about 4 years ago and i've not had an employee since. The thought that employees whould pay for screw ups never crossed my mind either as an employee or an employer.
joe d
*josh,An employee should never be paying for a mistake. We all make them. If a given employee makes too many, then they need to be let go. If you start charging them for mistakes, productivity and quality will suffer in short order. Employees will start worrying a whole lot more about their own bottom line than the bottom line of their cheap ass boss.Rich Beckman
*i In trying to make ourselves more cost competative and still make a profit I asked this question to the guys that work for me.Just curious, but how did they answer you? (And are they still working for you?)Personally, I don't think an employee should have to pay for a "mistake"; that should be factored into the cost of doing business (and too many of them may be more a reflection of the bosses ability to select competent workers). However, a sub or independent always pays for his or her mistakes, one way or another.
*Josh, don't even go there. There is a vast chasm separating employee from employer. You just cannot ask an employee to pay for a honest mistake. I know it's a bitch having employees and having your success based on the performance of others but that is part and parcel of being an employer. I'm with GACC and Rich Beckman on this one, if the mistakes are repeated or are too frequent you just let them go.
*Someone wastes a 14-foot board? I had someone drive off with a trailer hitch not locked in the receiver (pin in but retaining clip not). Got 40 miles to the job and 38 miles back before it parted ways, crossed 3 lanes of interstate traffic, knocked down a lamppost, which fell into 2 lanes of 60 mph traffic. Somehow everyone avoided harm. Caltrans sent an invoice for $1,000 for the lamppost. But charge him for it? No. Let everyone know about it as an eductional experience and that trailer never left the shop again without several people (their initative, not a new rule) checking the hitch. The guy stayed another 3 years doing good work.Yeah, it's frustrating at times and scarey at others, but if you're good at managing, estimating, design, and customer communications, the only variable is the quality of your workers. How do you keep the good ones? Not by dinging them for an honest mistake. But if someone gets project done fast, has a money saving idea, or calms an irrate client; how about two tickets to the cinema or $50 gift certificate to the tool store?
*That Josh is a real capitalist.
*i But if someone gets project done fast, has a money saving idea, or calms an irrate client; how about two tickets to the cinema or $50 gift certificate to the tool store?David, this is an excellent idea that is too often overlooked. I was in a teambuilding seminar recently, and the speaker said that the ratio of "star" performers (ones who consistently outperform), to "transmitters" (ones who do their job, no more, no less), to "terrorists" (those who constantly disrupt) was something like 2%:80%:10%. His stats didn't add up, but he did say that in most working situations, a greater percent of energy is spent on putting out the fires the terrorists start, and not enough spent on rewarding the good workers, and encouraging the "transmitters" to do even better. (And, of course, "letting" the "terrorists" find other jobs!)In my line of work (and when I was in construction), and I continue to be amazed at this, the star performers are happy just to get some recognition (although we would like a bit more than that). Too many bosses don't want to do this for fear that the slackers will feel left out or something. Hello. These are businesses. Slackers should be guided to learn how to perform up to par, and let go if they don't appear to learn. That your workers came up w/a solution on their (seemingly) own is quite the credit to your management expertise :)
*Josh,
View Image © 1999-2000"More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly." Woody Allen
*Josh - I guess I'd like to answer your question with a question. If an employee finds a way to save you money, are you going to pay him the amount he saved you ?You can't have it both ways. I think an employee should know about mistakes they make. Maybe some of the other guys should even be brought over and shown the problem. Not to rub the guy's face in it, just to show everyone howb notto do things.
*We're business owners because we decided to take the risk's involved. If you don't want the risks, get a safe job...just like your employees did.If you're got a guy who is costing you alot of money, or one that's no good at his job, or one that just isn't careful. Fire him.Don't take away your employees' security.
*It's all about risk.... if you want to just swing a hammer all day, and take direction from someone else, the your get your x$/hr. But for that small return, there is very little risk. Not worrying about subs, no customer service, very little hastle, just show up and put in your timeIf you want a bigger return on your time(more $$) then you have to take a bigger risk. Putting out your cash. We've all been there. Cutting into a wall, and finding that all the framing needs to be replaced.... didn't plan for that. That unmarked gas line, and then baby sitting the utility company for 3 hours, while you have a machine, and operator sitting there burning your cash... not to mention the rain clouds closing in.There is no free lunch. Look at the stock market, you can go tied and true, and make an average return, or you can take a huge risk. They you either make a ton... or lose a ton.
*Josh, I guess I'm going to be the lone dissenter, sort of.Yes, Josh your employees should pay for their mistakes, on one condition...that they share in your profits.If you are not sharing your profits equally, then you have no business asking your guys to share in your losses.If a guys is intentionally making "mistakes" (sabotage?) then fire him immediately. If they are just making boo-boos, while trying to do a good job, then simply encourge them to keep up the good work.Heres how to deal with them (mistakes), and assess them mentally: The losses that you are talking about are rather insignificant, if you look at the numbers in relation to the entire job. Yes, a $20 piece of lumber is costly, but if the job is a $5,000 trim job, does it really matter? Do the math. A $20 error represents a very small percentage. If you are seeking perfection, you better get out now. It'll never happen.When an employee makes an error, they usaually feel bad. They dislike the lack of performance as much as you do. It is up to you, the master motivator to find a way to laugh it off. Each employee needs diffeent stroking when something goes wrong. My best guy just laughs it off, and I with him. I'd call that clear trim fiasco a "perfect door jamb for pygmies" or something like that. Remember to stay in the solution, not the problem (thank you MS Power Point). Just start figuring a percentage of "spillage" into your profit picture. I always tell my guys to expect at least 10% errors on each house. Anything less is a good thing. That means that I am tolerant of 50 hours of screw ups on a 500 hour house. I can tell you we rarely have that many, but when the inevitable 8 hour repair surfaces, we all don't start wailing in our beer. We simply go to work fixing the problem in the best way possible. Josh, if you ever want to start enjoying the company you work with, start allowing them to be human. The only perfect carpenter was Jesus, and they hung him from a cross. I'd prefer to be less than perfect.blue
*the idea was just a thought. It came up when a subcontractor became an employee. After a while he said he would like a raise. I said at thsis time it would be hard without cutting some of my overhead somehow. He suggested that make the newbees pay for mistakes to help them become more acurate, when I said that all of us should pay for mistakes if we did that he flinched. I could not cjharge a person for making mistakes. I agree it would slow us down, it would not seem fair, I could not do it. Mistakes like insurance are part of the overhead.Someone above asked do I pay for when they save money and that too was part of the discussion. I said possibally, becuse it was in efort to save on job site waste, etc and we would look at bonuses or profit sharing.As far as the capitalist or cheep remarks I can only say that I trew this out as a question, and if you knew me or any of the contractors that know me or any of the lumber yards that supply me, you would think just the oposite.Boy this is funThznks for all the input guysJosh
*Not only is trying to have the employee pay for these mistakes a terrible idea for the reasons already assigned in most places(maybe all places) it is illegal. You are the business owner, you profit from and pay for everything your employee does within the scope of employment.By the way in case you wonder, illegal acts are generally not considered within the scope of employment. So, you can charge for damage caused by drunk driving, etc.
*Ditto Marshall, and others.As an employer, you assume financial responsibility for those you hire, be it a small or big error. It would be more than a little unorthodox to put this burden on your employees. Subcontracting is different, your dealing with a separate company which you enter an agreement for a specific service. It can be expected that if the sub err's it's out of his/her pocket. All employee's will make mistakes, if it is a continuous problem use your best judgement in dealing with the employee. Often times a 5 minute (non-confrontational) conversation letting the employee know where your coming from and your concerns will help. Who knows, maybe this could become a useful tool for future employee performance problems.
*I'll be honest, I like to deal with this the other way. On top of some of the many things listed already, charging for mistakes promotes finger pointing, cover ups, etc. "it wouldwouldve been too short if he measured right"IF you finish a head of schedule, have a little lest waste than ussual, sousualcomes up with a great idea, or anything particularly positive about a job. Toss the guys a little bonus.The guy I started for did this to me, and I gladdly wogladlythe extra mile for him.
*josh,No harm in the discussion. If you're referencing my "cheap ass boss" comment, I meant it to refer to the boss that is actually charging the employees for mistakes, not to you.Rich Beckman
*Well, it seems unanimous that you can't charge an employee for an honest mistake. Some make alot more than others, however. It seems to me that you can (and should) always take an employees track record into account when you hand out bonuses. Also, keep in mind that the mistakes you make, generally, in estimating, are far more costly than those your workers make in the field.
*I have never charged an employee for a mistake. It is wrong- you should shoot them. One or two dead helpers and the rest of the crew shapes up post haste...
*I'll retract my comment.
*Used the same tactic as a counselor at summer camp. You only gotta kill one and the rest will behave.
*For me, a lot of the time we're working with pretty expensive materials, and I'm going the route of training new guys (mostly one new guy)to my way of doing things, because there aren't any experienced guys around that I want in my shop. That means mistakes, expensive mistakes, are going to happen. It hurts, and it pisses me off when it is the same mistake repeated, but you can't charge a guy for it. Quality people will recognise when they have made a mistake that costs you money, and in my experience will try to even that out in some way. I know I did when I was learning (I never ever make the smallest mistake now, not that I will admit to anyway).My main guy, Booger, drops the ball from time to time. He's offered many times to pay for a boo boo, but thats not how it's done. He always goes above and beyond when needed, and he never stops trying to do better, so like I said, it evens out in the end.
*hey this is a fun discussion, so I will take this a little further, just for thought. One of my guys came from a company that if yu were misusing a tool and you broke it, you paid for it. Another guy worked for an contractor that had a policy that if anything fell out of a truck and caused damage, you were gone.Another that if yuo did something to cause an OSHA violation , you paid for it. My former boss had a policy that if you screwed up , you fixed it on your own time. Bringing up this discussion has been for curiosity and has led to some interstring discussions at our job site as well as maybe yours. Some of you have mentioned that if someone is wasteful then get rid of them. Is that not also paying for your mistakes if you loose your job.
*> Some of you have mentioned that if someone is wasteful then get rid of them. Is that not also paying for your mistakes if you loose your job.Yes, but that is kind of like Doug and Ryan's method of killing one. If someone is consistently making more mistakes than the norm, they've got to go. If they don't, what message does that send to the other employees.All of those things you listed are wrong. And I'm betting those bosses constantly complain about how hard it is to find good help. They are so intolerent of mistakes that they have probably fired better help than they have kept.Back in the days when I had employees in the pizza business, when a mistake occurred my mantra was, correct the mistake and learn from the mistake, but let's not waste energy trying to determine who is at fault and "punishing them". That doesn't mean I never fired anybody (twice in seven years I think), but it took a lot. I was frequently asked how I managed to have such good crews.Rich Beckman
*I can't see charging the employee directly for the mistake. As others have said, it is part of the risk/reward for being in business. We do a mix of small (less than one man week) and larger remodeling jobs and use a fixed bid/pay approach for the small work which we estimate. If we estimate at 10 hours we pay for 10 hours and bill for 10 hours. If there is a significant error in the estimating I will pay for it, however if the job runs long because the guy made a few errors, that is part of his responsibility. The reverse is also true, if the job is done quicker, we still pay the full rate. The idea for this came from auto repair shops who use the book time for estimating repairs. The good techs can ususally beat the estimate. The slower guys learn quickly. I never make the employee pay for any material wasted.
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In trying to make ourselves more cost competative and still make a profit I asked this question to the guys that work for me. If they make a mistake should I be the one paying for the errors. I am not talking about the newbees that have little experience. I am talking about the guys who have been at it for years and make a mistake. Example : I am the general contractor , I bid a job and I under bid it, who should lose out, me of course. I cut a joist wrong. Too short can not be used anywhere else, whose pocket does it come out of, mine of course. A lead carpenter takes a 14 foot clear verticle grain board, he is supposed to cut it into 2-7's, he measured the opening, he measured the cuts and cuts two at 74 instead of two at 84, whose pocket should it come out of ? I say not mine. A employee does not tie a load down right. It spills out on the road, wates materials, he admits the error, who pays ? When is an accident not one if preventable ?How do you enforce it when the labor pool is tight ? How do you eat it ? We do quality work. I am proud of the people I work with, we have a good reputation in a tight town, yes maybe it is part of the business,In this town I pay my guys near the top of the scale and supply the tools, insurance, a safe envoronment and we always pay our people on time. But some days, mistakes (includeing my own) and time lines bug the shi* out of me. How do others handle mistakes like this. Do not give politically correct , trying to impress others answers, lets hear the real thing, some of you do not use your real names anyway so whose toes are you afraid of ?
*josh,I would never ask an employee to pay for his mistakes. We all make them. If he makes enough of them, I can just let him go. Ed. Williams