Replies

1. 
   Mark_Helling | Feb 03, 2000 10:37pm | #1

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   I drove through a new subdivision the other day and saw a group of high school boys framing a house under the supervision of their teacher. I checked and found the builder had made an agreement with the local High School that they could use his houses as their "field work experience". The builder has so many orders and no framers available. I sure would not want my house framed by a bunch of boys on a field trip!

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   Guest_ | Feb 04, 2000 01:18am | #2

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   Mark, your reponse should get more than just my 2 cents.

   Just because the "men" working on a framing crew might seem to have experience or even be experienced, does not automatically guarantee a superior job. In fact if you read past posts you will see there are many complaints about workmanship.

   Our industry is faced with a severe shortage of qualified craftsmen and I think this hands on approach, which is very much like an apprenticeship, is wonderful. You will also see these young people following the adage - measure twice, cut once. In a supervised learning and graded environment they are going to do their best to be level, plumb and accurate. They haven't yet been exposed, hopefully, to the cut it, nail it, caulk it mentality we see so often in the "experienced" folks.

   You, if you are in the trades, have an opportunity to put in your two cents, constructively, by volunteering some of your time to help these up and comers who will be following in your footsteps and perhaps be building the nursing home you will be spending your final days in.

   Comments? Ralph

3. 
   Stephen_Weber | Feb 04, 2000 04:57am | #3

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   Thanks Ralph if more tradesmen shared your ideas we would not be faceing the shortage of qualified worker that we are currently experiencing. For years the idenvidual trades took responsibility for educating their workers. With the onset of spelization in the trades everyone seems to be pointing the finger at the next guy to accept the responsibility of educating workers.
   Our program at the Vo-Tech stresses quality and the homes that we build are the pratice labs to develop the required skills. We take our time and if something is not right the students do the work over. We do have the luxury of not having to keep to a time schedule because this is a learning situation. This helps to keep the homes at a high quality level. The fact that we are fortunate to have a very good staff to over see and monitor the work is also a great benifit.
   When I was still out in the field full time I would recieve pages full of punch lsit work form customers. We have back our students work with a one year warrenty and I have never recieved a punch list for any of the homes that we built.
   Our homes are constructed of all douglas fir, Brick veneer and things that don't come in a standard development home.The people who have purchased the homes love them.

   Thanks again for your comments Steve

4. 
   Guest_ | Feb 04, 2000 05:04am | #4

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   I have to agree with Ralph. In my area it would be great to have a program in the local schools that would promote the building trades, making it a source for up and coming craftsmen. Presently, it is near impossible to find young people that would be willing to learn the trades due to all the encouragement of high salary positions in the computer and other career fields that are instilled upon by the school systems, let alone no offer of such a vocational program. I'm quite certain that young men learning the trades either from an instructor, or a seasoned skilled journeyman would want to do their best, and establish pride in what they do. It might be surprising as to what they may accomplish if given the opportunity. MDM.

5. 
   Dan_Metzcus | Feb 04, 2000 06:19am | #5

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   I agree with Mad Dog, why would you possibly want to bust your butt, deal with the elements of both summer and winter, being both under paid and under appreciated, risk life and limb on a daily basis just to become a decrepit old man after years of building when you can sit behind a computer in a climatized enviroment making very good money.

6. 
   Guest_ | Feb 04, 2000 08:34am | #6

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   By the time I was a sophmore in HS it was obvious I wasn't college bound. In fact, I never would have made it out of HS if it weren't for a vocational program we had at the smallest public HS in Mass. Each year we built a house. Grades 10-12 (about 15 students) worked on the house in the AM and attended basic level reading, writing and 'rithmatic classes after lunch. The freshmen (about 15) went to class in the AM and worked on the house after lunch.

   That instructor was an old Yankee carpenter about 45 or 50.

   A local lumber yard supplied the materials and the school district supplied the labor. At the end of the school year they would sell the house, however close to completion it was, usually to a teacher in the district, who could finish it theirself or maybe hire a local contractor to finish it. Both houses were pretty close to complete the two years I was in the program though.

   I'll admit that for many of the students it was their last chance in school and they weren't necessarily there because they wanted to be. There were a few bonafide tough guys and others who did the bare minimum to pass. But for many of us it was the start to a great career.

   A few years ago I thought maybe I could get something like that going in our local school. I have a good relationship with the owner of the local yard and I think he might have gone for something like that, but the administrators I talked with here didn't think it was a very good idea and I didn't push it.

   I wish every almost drop out had the opportunity to try something like that though. I can't imagine where I'd be today without that program. And I know lots of the guys who graduated from there went on to careers as carpenters.

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 04, 2000 09:10am | #7

   *Jim, I just KNEW there was some New England in you!There's a difference between lack of skilled labor coupled with high unemployement and the same coupled with low unemployment. We have the latter right now, so yes you're going to fewer people when climate-controlled alternatives with 401k's and such exist. It will be interesting to see where the industry goes from here, i'm already sick of the junk I'm seeing in new houses (yes, even I could do better). Perhaps more immigrant workers should be sought out.

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   Guest_ | Feb 04, 2000 09:55am | #8

   *Screw Altruism.Supply and demand rules! Let more egg headed, egg butted, soft pawed, climate controled folks do what they want. The more of them the less of us = higher tradesman wages. That for one suits me fine.Don't get me wrong, those that want it need training and mentoring in the trades. The young buck i trained for a couple of years is running crews in Hawaii now.just some thoughts, joe d

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   Dan_Metzcus | Feb 04, 2000 06:10pm | #9

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   Andrew,

   That is already the case in the Chicago land area. The flooding of immigrants into the booming trades, that cannot keep up with the demand here can be very deterimental to the pay scale of the working man. This form of cheap labor in time has the possibility of deminising the wages of the work force.

   Dan

8. 
   Guest_ | Feb 04, 2000 06:25pm | #10

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   Wow, Dan, So it's happening in Chicago also? MDM.

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 04, 2000 10:03pm | #11

   *Not exactly my point -- I'm not talking about importing labor to keep salaries down -- this even happens to programmers in the Silicon Valley! -- but the fact that there simply aren't enough qualified people to hire. I've heard this here a couple of times. To increase labor supply, should we attempt to attract the high schoolers by raising wages above what the market will bear (this won't help -- as prices rise, people buy smaller houses, delay renovations, or spend there money elsewhere, so the amount of work available drops while unemployment rises) or encourage the young people to go where they are most needed already?Those office jobs do need to be filled. The working man is moving into the office in America.... but this is an area in which we are very strong, the service economy, and which is driving our current expansion. Geez, I sound like a libertarian.

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   Dan_Metzcus | Feb 04, 2000 10:36pm | #12

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   I don't think raising the wages is the main problem, a union carpenter here makes 60K a year with medical and retirement benefits, which is pretty good money for a non-degree possition. It's hard to tell at times if the up and coming Nintendo generation is willing to do what it takes to be a tradesman. Its tuff physical old fasion WORK. Geez, I sound like my father.

10. 
    Guest_ | Feb 04, 2000 11:39pm | #13

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    Mark, Sight unseen, I'd be willing to put the boys' work up against much of what passes for "professional" today. It is an excellent teaching method used by many schools across the country.

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   Guest_ | Feb 04, 2000 11:58pm | #14

   *Working with your hands is short changed or non existent in many high schools and put down by many with college educations who then whine when they can't get their car repaired or gripe about shoddy work on their drywall palaces. Working with your hands should be celebrated and elevated to its rightful place alongside and equal to a college/college prep education.

11. 
    Dan_Metzcus | Feb 05, 2000 12:05am | #15

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    jcallahan - BRAVO!!

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    Guest_ | Feb 05, 2000 07:09am | #16

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    I love working with my hands -- and I equally love reading & analyzing. I'm in the minority. I don't blame those who pick a pay raise over masochism -- if they don't like manual stuff, they don't like it. The fools are the ones who assume that because they earn more they must be smarter, more talented or harder-working. I think most of the white collar respects the trades, though, at least the good and honest craftspeople (all 10,000 of them).

    When I interviewed for a job at a law firm recently, several interviewers said they couldn't understand why I'd give up contracting to go into a firm! I said, hey, don't over-romanticize it!

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   Guest_ | Feb 05, 2000 11:57pm | #18

   *Some of the problem is that in many places, school districts are hacking away at vocational education budgets, and in some cases, eliminating entire programs when in fact, school districts should be training more people. I have friends who are engineers and 'puter geeks but they are from the old school .....they got their hands dirty ........ they realize that no discipline is mutually exclusive, that everything is connected ...... much the same as a lot of you posters .... you design, you build, you are businessmen, estimators, and accountants .... one person wears many hats.

13. 
    Guest_ | Feb 05, 2000 11:57pm | #17

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