Just got a doorknob flyer from the City telling me to replace two sections.
Five criteria:
* Broken into three pieces,
* Scaling and spalling 1/2″d, 6 sq.” or more,
* Accumulation of standing water,
* Settlement greater than 4″ (they mean as in a smooth, deep, dip),
* Raised greater than 3/4″ (as in an abrupt tripping hazard),
They spray-paint an L — lift or grind, or an O — for Outta Here, I guess.
I got two Os — one tripper, and one spalled section.
Gimme a break! I can score a new control crack a few inches back from the tripper, then score/grind down to acceptable tolerances. I’m sure they’ll let me fly on that, and I’m tooled up for it with no purchase necessary.
What about the spalling problem, though? Concrete is not my forte, but I’d think that I could etch/score/drill to get adequate tooth, then pour in some (epoxy?) filler — it’s pretty shallow. Maybe use that leftover tube of EPCON, and mash some sand into the surface?
Whadda y’all think?
AitchKay
Replies
Many cities have programs where they pay for half of the cost for replacing sidewalks. As well as specifics about how they are to be redone.
Why is it your problem? Aren't the sidewalks on public propety, i.e. doesn't your legal property line end short of the sidewalk?
You are responsible here.
What are your local rules on how often cuts have to be?
Quite possible to cut completely through a piece, lever it up and pack sand under it to level it off. Used to do that to a sandstone sidewalk as a kid in Ohio , every couple of years maintenance.
There are any number of products out there for overlaying crete.
Can't think of who here is a big fan of one of them, built a gorgeous patio and deck using the stuff. Maybe someone else can provide a name of the poster.
Might try the dreaded search for concrete overlay or some such.
Edited 5/20/2009 10:13 pm by dovetail97128
If you are responsible you may want to look in to replacing it. When I lived in New York City, you were responsible for the sidewalk even though you did not own it. If it fell in to disrepair or you did not shovel the snow off it some one could trip and you were looking at a nice law suit.
AK, did the fill to my neighbor's sidewalk last summer. Held up thru the winter-freeze/thaw the decider-and the city had no problem with it. Clean thoroughly (brush out, blow out maybe even scrub out), paint up with concrete glue, add and featherout the patch and leave a wet rag over it for as long as someone can wet it down and keep it wet and not trip over it. Even with the chemical set ones I've had good luck with this method.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Thanks for your responses, guys.I'm definitely responsible -- that's the way it's set up here. I've got no problem with that -- I'd have to pay for it one way or another, either through taxes, or directly, like this.Good news from you, Calvin, since we're only an hour apart, and share the same weather. Do you remember the product names of what you used?I'm a little under-equipped for the grinding, probably. I've got 4" Bosch, and (8"?) Craftsman grinders, I have a diamond cup disk for the big one, a couple of blades for the little one, and of course I'll buy whatever seems to make sense.If you guys tell me to buy something, I can always tell DW to blame it on you!Also, since the city went up and down the street with their spray cans, I'll be able to help out the neighbors, too.AitchKay
Well, remember the stuff?
not really but I can tell you this-it might have been sand mix-no room for any stone agregate. Might have been "concrete patch" if there is such a thing. I'll go look in the morter dept in the garage tomorrow morning if I can remember that...........
edit: Since I didn't want to forget-Either Quickrete Sand Mix.
or, Quickrete Quick Setting Cement.
I'm leaning towards sand mix as it blended pretty darn well with the old color of the concrete. The finish is not plasticised.........that smooth look of the vinyl patching compound. But, Not for Sure on anything other than it was one of the two.
Sorry, didn't bill 'em so there's no paper trail to check.
Used the same thing to "ramp up" one low slab to the next. 3/4'' difference. That worked well too, no break, no peal.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 5/21/2009 10:00 pm ET by calvin
This brings up a bad experience I had trying to relevel a part of my garage floor a few years ago. I tried a Quickrete product specifically marketed for concrete repair. I got it from Home Depot, used a latex conditioner (think that was what is was called) as specified, and installed it. Initially it seemed to work great but within about 6 months, it started cracking and sounding hollow under foot. I was able to (and basically had to because it kept chipping away) completely remove it with a shovel.
That was a nice waste of $50 in materials and a few hours of my time. I don't know why it failed. I prepped the area by washing the old concrete surface down. I thought afterwards that an acid wash might have given the repair mix better adhesion but it wasn't specified by the manufacturer. They also specifically said not to use a bonding agent like Weldcrete, which was something that I thought I should have used. Just my bad experience to share...
I repaired my front stoop (which hadn't spalled but had a bad "birdbath") with an Akona product about 20 years ago. I cleaned the area a bit and roughed it up by banging it with a hammer, then applied the product per package specs. It did chip a little around the edges but basically held up until I covered it with another layer when I completely resurfaced the stoop a year ago.Gave the neighbor across the street the remainder of the bag and he redid a small part of his badly spalled driveway with it. He didn't do the whole thing because of the expense, but the one repaired area held up until the driveway was replaced several years ago.One important point is that the concrete should be fairly damp when making the repairs, so that the moisture isn't sucked out of the repair mix. And of course with spalling any loose material must be removed first.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Thank you for reminding folks that the concrete should be damp. I do it w/o thinking on anything masonry for just the reason you state-moisture being sucked out of the patch or whatever.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Yeah, what I've done (no science to it) is to thoroughly hose the area down, then begin working as soon as no standing water is visible.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Are you allowed to make repairs your self? In Norwood Ohio you have to have the repair done by some one on the cities list of qualified contractors.
Paddy
There are many concrete surfacing products that will fix mild to moderate spalling. Plain old thinset will do a pretty good job.
Plain old thinset will do a pretty good job.
Not.
Thinset mortar doesn't have the compressive strength to stand up to that kind of abuse. It will crack, spall, and fall off the patched area in short order.
There are thin-layer, modified concrete premixes specifically made for this type of application, but they are not 'plain old thinset.'
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Personally, I think it would be less time consuming, and possibly less expensive to just replace the panels in question.
Really?What would you charge to replace about 40 sq. ft?I've got spalling about the size of a saucer to patch, and one seam to grind that's fine (flush) on one end, but raised about 1" on the other.My instincts say patch and grind.AitchKay
You have either: a base failure; root heave; or frost heave. Patching and grinding do not aleviate the cause of the problem. So what ever is causing the failures is still going to be moving the sidewalk panels after you patch. The only long term solution is to remove the sidewalk, identify the base problem and repair it. Grinding an inch of concrete so that it is cleanly feathered, and no longer presents a hazard is going to take hours worth of labor. You are setting your self up for a liability claim, if you don't get things cleanly repaired to a very high standard. Knocking out a few panels, fixing the base, and placing new concrete is going to cost more, but should not take more time.
I find myself aggreeing with both AK and JnF. If it was my own house on my time I would just remove the sidewalk and replace the concrete.If the rest of the street had nice looking sidewalk I would rather not be the house with the ugly sidewalks out front. If the rest of the neighborhood was patching and grinding I would probably do the same.If someone wanted me to make the problem go away for them I would just patch and grind.I agree with AK that grinding wouldn't take much time. With a 6" aggressive diamond cup wheel Concrete tends to disappear pretty quick. I have had really good luck patching spalling in concrete. I have used a small amount of modified thinset as a bonding layer and used sand mix (mortar) to do small patches successfully. Years ago I patched a concrete porch with some vinyl concrete patch that came in a little plastic bucket and was very surprised at how well it held up.
Yeah, I won't offer an opinion on the grinding, but certainly patching a little spalling is straight-forward. True, if the concrete is punk then the patch will fail, but it costs very little to try it. Most often the concrete below is sound, and only the surface has a problem, due to improper working when it was placed.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Thanks, guys,One more bit of background is that this is an Historic District. Most of these houses are over 100 years old, built as working-class homes, and, where you can find dates, the sidewalks tend to be marked... WPA 1936...or the like. So we're not talking brand-new, pristine, uniform, beige, Chemlawn Suburbia. These places have a little variation, a little funk, and so do their sidewalks.I think I'll grind and patch (although, it being Saturday night, I'd prefer to Rip, Rout,and Screw!).AitchKay
I don't know what your regs are for access, but another argument for patch/grind over replace is that some municipalities will make you do all kinds of pedestrian mitigation for the time the sidewalk is out of commission.
If you demo it and pour it same day, you still have a day to wait for initial cure. Around here you'd have to put up cones from a driveway at either side, block off parking spaces, and make a pedestrian zone in the street so wheelchairs and strollers could ramp down, around and back up on the sidewalk. Or put up barricades at the street corners.
k
ps although, the question about cause (roots?) remains.
On a semi-related note, does anyone have a good recipe for matching 80 year old sidewalk grayness? How much lampblack per yard to get close, or at least not be glaringly white and new?
k
Good point. Around here, the rule is block the sidewalk at the nearest crosswalk, which usually means at the intersections.AitchKay
I'm an opinionated guy usually. I guess I'd think two ways on this project. If making it right w/o digging it up and replacing and doing a good job of it, I think that is the judicious thing to do.
If you had a neighborhood of sandstone sidewalks and you just tore it up and didn't bother to continue the history, so you poured concrete in between. Not good either.
But in a pristine concrete sidewalk neighborhood, probably be better off to do it full boar. In ours for instance-there's everything from new concrete, a few full sandstone, some partial and everyone of them need some adjustment to keep an even plane.
The folks that piss me off are those that don't trim bushes back or grass so the 48'' walk stays somewhere close to that width. Overhanging tree branches can do some damage on a moonlit walk. But hey, some people don't even walk down their own sidewalk.
And easy for me to say, having only 16 ft of sidewalk to maintain.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/