I finally got around to watching the video that came with my Kreg pocket hole jig, and the very competent carpenter (forget his name) was doing a set of stairs. As seems to be the norm these days, he was adding treads and risers over stringers that were already in place (probably LVL’s). I just did the same thing for a friend a month ago, and I’ve done it a few other times as well, I can’t say that I like to do stairs this way. You probably know why…….issues with skirtboards, lots of scribing, having to custom fit each piece, fastening problems (the Kreg guy was using finish screws through the top of his treads), leveling on and on. Now I’m a former cabinet/woodshop guy who has built my share of stairs in the shop and carried them to the site. I still think this is the way to do it, but Im curious as to why this seems to be falling out of favor. Or is it? I’m not on new construction sites too much anymore and was wondering how you guys/girls prefer to deal with the stair issue.
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Frost,
I can't speak to other areas of the country but here in Ore. site built stairs are the norm and shop built ones are the unusual ones.
I learned to build them 35 yrs. ago and have done them ever since.
I think that simple stairs have always been done on site .
Why not remove site built stair and build the way you want to?
well, the past few times the LVL stringers were in and the risers and treads were bought already so I went with the plan. I get better each time doing it that way, the biggest problem I guess is on open stairs and having to cut a decorative stringer to miter into the risers. I know people do this all the time, but is it because its cheaper, easier, saves time , avoids having to sub it out and deal with another trade guy or why? I learned stairs from a carpenter buddy a long time ago, you should have seen what he could do with a skillsaw and router, he always built them seperatly and then installed.
frost,
Maybe I don't understand this statement..
" the biggest problem I guess is on open stairs and having to cut a decorative stringer to miter into the risers.".
The general practice here is the rough stringer is spaced away from the wall framing with a piece of 2x stock .
This allows the wall board or plaster to be finished down to the rough stringer spacer(which is always placed below the narrowest point of the rough stringer , temp. treads stop at the outside of the stringer) then the finish stringer or skirt board is placed then the treads and risers.
I always put temp stairs in to make it easier for all the other trades. Then when they were done I would put in the real stair.
I think you might be labor ahead if you start over and should still be able to use treads and risers provided for you.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, I do that often.
thanks guys......
Guess I was just wanting to start a discussion about pro and cons. I'm a little old school and wanted to know if I was missing something. Sometimes I'm stupid about holding on to an idea and not open enough to accept newer methods. Dovetail, I was referring to a true "Open " staircase where the treads have a return and risers are 45'd to fit the 45'd plum cut on stringer. Just tough to do even in the shop. I guess people do it all the time though, they must be good. Even closed stairs, being one of the last things done can be tough. If there's no access to underneath then your faced with nailing or screwing through the face of treads, just bothers me.
Think I'll stick with shop built when I have a say in it and do my best otherwise.
Thanks again
My dad always cut those 45's with a hand saw.
I wondered about that after I posted.
I have done the open and that is one reason I own the 12" Dewalt slide saw. Better yet was my old Sawbuck , but I donated that to the local habitat for humanity.
The outside mitres can be tough , but it is doable and after few of them it just becomes another thing to stand back and appreciate when you are done.
I wish I had had a shop big eneough and fiurnished with the quality of tools to make them in the shop but those parted company with me back in 1983 when I sold out of the business once.
In 15 years on job sites I've only been on a handful where we didn't build the stairs on site. One of those had a curved stair, and there was a site-built back stair. If you have the right jigs and are used to it you can get a very good product.
That said, I think it can make sense to bring in a stair built off-site, if the runs are fairly simple. The 2-story stair I'm building now is a switchback with an extra riser on the landing and it needs to blend in with ceilings and kneewalls. We need access to all three floors anyway, so it made more sense to just build a sturdy set and we'll apply the rest of the pieces on site as well. We'll use some of Gary Streigler's (the Kreg jig guy) techniques.
"This is a process, not an event."--Sphere
And I'm a legitimate certifiable Tool Whore.--Dieselpig
<< The 2-story stair I'm building now is a switchback with an extra riser on the landing and it needs to blend in with ceilings and kneewalls. >>
I tried that once when a winder stair was called for and I couldn't get a detail drawing from the architect. Turned out it wasn't code to put a riser on a landing. Had to scrap it and start over, with the necessary drawings at last.
To me, the riser on the landing was a lot safer than the winder staircase but what do I know? Before I left I got a sign off from the architect that the stairs were built according to his drawings.
It's to code because there's a full 3'x3' landing on either side of the riser. A diagonal riser across a single 3'x3' landing would not meet code.
"This is a process, not an event."--Sphere
And I'm a legitimate certifiable Tool Whore.--Dieselpig
<<It's to code because there's a full 3'x3' landing on either side of the riser. A diagonal riser across a single 3'x3' landing would not meet code.>>
I wish you'd been around with that code book when I needed ya. That's just how I built it but the freekin' architect wanted the freekin' winders, said my way was illegal. Winders are abominably unsafe, IMO. I'd never have 'em in my house. And after building those, I won't take on that liability again.
Interesting carpentry problem as I recall but I'd have to go back and look. Kind of stacked 'em up on top of the original landing, if memory serves (that's probably cheating but it worked for me). There was a post in the center that I used to hang the top flight's inside stringer on.
Hey Frost,
Here's my $0.02. For most straight runs of stairs I would much rather work with rough stringers, a tightly dadoed finish stringer/skirt for the housed side and a mitered outside finish stringer for the open side. My reason, if I shop-build an expensive set of finish stairs I then have to risk transporting them to the site, carrying them in, and setting them in place. Heaven forbid they shouldn't fit. Of course, this isn't to say that a great deal of careful handling, planning, and a LOT of measuring don't go a long way... but nonetheless, I'd hate to eat a set of stairs that I could have built on site.
I just cut a mitered outside stringer about two or so weeks ago to match a set of existing stringers. I'll probably get slapped around a bit, but I used my SCMS and a Jap saw to make the cuts and it worked pretty slick. All the miters closed up tight without much of any tweaking and I was quite pleased with the results - and I'm super-picky about my work. As far as working with non-dadoed stringers/skirts, it's not bad either. Buy/build a jig that allows accurate measuring both of the tread length but also the angle - if any - at the intersection with the skirt. There are some pictures floating around in a recent thread pertaining to this.
Here's a pic of my mitered stringer, but I doubt you'll be able to pick much of anything out.
Squash,
Nice looking stairs. I was kinda hoping for someone to speak up from the site built lobby. I think its all what your used to, if your good at it and care then it will be right. I'm also not convinced about the economics either way. If you need a rough set of stairs while framing and use the same stringers for finish set, then your just in for the risers (maybe painted ply), treads and any skirtboards you need for cover. The few times I have done it though, the stringers were already cut by a framer and they were less then perfect. Real tough to get all the risers close to the same without a ton of time and effort. I noticed the Kreg guy used shims everywhere, and I wondered if he intentionally had each stringer cut a little shy each way so that he could make it right. Seems I was sawzalling off as much as shimming up. All that said, if the guy who cuts the stringers does a great job then I see no reason not to do it the way you like. any tips??
still bothered by screws or nails through the treads though......
thanks to all..
Two things you mentioned say it all in my opinion. ""The few times I have done it though, the stringers were already cut by a framer and they were less then perfect. "" ""if the guy who cuts the stringers does a great job then I see no reason not to do it the way you like.""
I have most generaly framed and cut my own stringers so I am the one responsible for the quality.
I don't see how a shop is going to improve on that for rough stringers and site installed treads and risers. The shop will allow me an easier time by far when it comes to dadoed or housed treads. Every tool I use is portable so all the shop affords me is a cleaner less disturbed enviroment to work in. At one time I swear I could have made a career of following bad workmanship around in high end developements fixing rough stringers, but the headaches weren't worth it.
Thanks for the compliment Frost, I appreciate it.
I have the same DVD from Kreg, and Gary did a ton of shimming to get everything in line... but I can't admit that I was impressed with the fit at the skirt, although it was a paint-grade skirt/riser if I recall. Shimming does work fine and for slight variances that are a bit too much for PL to take care of, but the shims need to be embedded in adhesive to avoid squeaks and creaks. Honestly, I would much rather install a few thousand worth of materials on top of accurately cut stringers that I installed, and I suppose sometimes it works out to be just as fast as shimming EVERYTHING into line. If the rough stringers are way off, or even enough off to make proper installation a PITA, I'd recommend tearing them out and cutting new ones the right way. Let's face it, the cost of three or four new stringers is pretty much going to pale in comparison to the cost of the materials in a stain-grade stairway. The added bonus is that you can ensure that they're properly layed out, cut, and installed. In retrofit work - like the stairs in the pic I posted - it's going to be far too much of a headache to pull the rough stringers and replace them unless they're way off, so out come the shims.
I suppose though, it all depends on the individual and what works for them.
I'm siting here with my mouth hanging op[en because of that mental picture of somebody using allthose shims!!!I have always built on site and was actually pretty suprised the first time I saw prebuilt stairs show up at a jobsite. They were wrong BTW, but I'm sure that was the fault of whoever ordered them, not the stair builder.anyway - I might use 4-5 shims on a whole set of stairs. I do my layout, check my layout, cut my first stringer, set it in place, check everything again, then use it for a pattern to cut the other stringers. That way all 3-4 of them are the same. It's a good idea for the framers to build the stairwell openning square too - that makes finish cuts in the trim easier;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I like to build my stairs but seldom do. I've found that local stairshops can provide them for about what I would pay for materials alone from the lumberyard.
I think Jayzog just hit it.
IN most cases a shop can build a set of stairs way cheaper than they can be built on site.
When I lived in Florida we built every stair.
Since moving north, the only site built ones were special cases. Usually retrofits where you couldn't get a built stair in place.
A regular straight run stair, even half open costs about what you would pay for material to build it on site. Besides that, it eliminates the required skill set. HEll, the guy who bought me out has branched from just setting rails to setting the stairs as well. The greater the number of south of the boarder crews we see, the greater the number of screwed up stair installs.
I'll continue to build our stairs for the forseable future both because it fits our construction style and it's enjoyable.
With longer build times than average, we don't need to save the time with someone else's shop built stairs. The longer build times also mean we benefit a lot from getting stair stringers set during framing.
Since I'm both the one framing and working the finish end of things it's not bad since the stringers are a known quantity. I'd never want to finish stairs someone else started.
Typical construction is three stringers made from 14" LVL's covered with 1-1/8" ply sub risers and treads set as close to true as possible. The glued and screwed ply is great to walk on and solid to attach treads and risers to.
I used to think this construction was overbuilding, but after watching the various trades overload stairs by dropping everything from scaffolding to materials, it seems about right. We're building to last 100 years, not the end of a 10 year warranty.
In rural areas it's probably just not as common to have a dedicated stair builder nearby and there was never an option of subing it out, other than to another carp that would site build them. Even our curved stain grade stairs have typically been built in place with laminated stringers and handrails.
For builders that focus on quick build times it probably makes sense to sub the task to a shop if there's one nearby.
On the other hand if you are in the business because of a love of carpentry then subing out interesting work is like paying someone to sleep with the misses. *chuckle*
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Don,I agree with your statement, "On the other hand if you are in the business because of a love of carpentry then subing out interesting work is like paying someone to sleep with the misses.(sic)"The guys who have a good time in this business find ways to do the interesting stuff themselves, like in the old days. Mike Smith's "adverse possession" thread comes to mind. It may cost premium bucks to the customer, but the end-to -end accountability is really worth the price, IMO.Bill
We try to do as much as possible in house, but it does require some effort to stay up to speed on all the stuff, not to mention in shape. We're getting ready to do a bunch of overhead stuff and it will take a week just to not be sore. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I build all the stairs on my jobs. Some I trim some I don't. Scheduling issues get in the way of me trimming them.
One thing I have noticed is alot of framers around here are starting to pass on building the stairs. I frame alot of those as well. Mostly the oddball sets, winders or multiple landings.
Fairly profitable gig in my opinion. Never thought it would be, I have come out way ahead on all the sets I have done for others.
I just can't see framing a multiple floor house without stairs. Makes for a long day up and down ladders. But what do I know. Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
Stilletto,
Agreed about the ladders.
25 yrs. ago I really got serious about putting the permanent stringers in and temporary treads/risers and railings after an accident happened on a jobsite next to mine where a carp fell from one floor to the one below because he missed the ladder.
Liablity isn't worth it to me.
Part of my thinking on this subject is due to an accident as well. Probably 15 years ago.
I was helping my uncles frame a house, putting T&G subfloor on the second floor. Uncle yells for another sheet, I was carrying it into the house. HO sister grabs a sheet lifts it up and fell into the basement. Broke her hip. Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
One other advantage of framing your own -When I get framed up and dryed in with paper on the roof, I know ther is going to be at least one day soon when it is raining out and I can spend the day inside building the stringers and temp treads inside. we place a ladder until then. In a rainy climate, you have to schedule inside stuff to stay busy
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In a rainy climate, you have to schedule inside stuff to stay busy
That's also good advice in cold windy areas. When the wind would really come up on some ridge-top sites it was downright dangerous to be outside, not to mention productivity went down the tubes.
Old habits die hard and we saved a few weeks of interior framing details for rain days this past winter, but there was only one or two days that were too much to work in. We had a good chuckle when the framing crews around town called it quits when maybe 4" of snow fell!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Have you been to JLC LIVE? Jed Dixon has a class and he has a lot of pictures how he builds the stairs. I builds the stairs onsite out of LVL, I think just two stringers (I'm probably wrong on that) and glues and screws ply sub risers and sub treads. They look perfect, then he comes back and trims them right at the end of the project when the house is nearly complete so abuse is at a minimum.
Have you been to JLC LIVE?
Unfortunately I haven't made the trip to one of those yet. Up until the past few years it was hard to give up the time, but now we're working too hard and need some breaks.
With 1-1/8" ply glued with pl and screwed down to LVL's 2 stringers is all a guy needs for normal 3' to 4' stairs, but the inspectors want to see 3 unless there's an engineer's stamp. I tried going down to 3/4" ply, but the nail holding ability just isn't as good as the 1-1/8" and the price difference isn't that much.
:-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
You're getting a lot more responses from guys who do site built than I ever would have imagined.
In these parts (suburban NY), almost all are shop built and brought to the site. Can't recall a project with site built stairs that weren't done using strip flooring as treads.
But hey......I even build my exterior stairs in shop and haul them to the site. So whadda I know?
That haircut, and a time out. All in the same week.
Sucks to be you.
<<You're getting a lot more responses from guys who do site built than I ever would have imagined.
In these parts (suburban NY), almost all are shop built and brought to the site. >>
Almost all is right. The winders I mentioned are in a big place on Strawtown Rd. in West Nyack. No shop except what we set up daily on site. That job was a bit of a haul for us country carpenters but when you're out of work in the winter you do what ya gotta do. So I bid on the interior work and a few other items. Got me and another journeyman friend a couple months in a posh Rockland County neighborhood.
Edited 3/19/2007 4:05 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Where I'm at (Southern MN), I've only seen two shop-built stairs in my life. We do pretty much everything on-site. I work with mostly the same framing crews, and they all do pretty good at setting the rough stringers. I can see the advantages of shop-building them, and I even plan on doing a couple small sets to display our curved work. Hopefully, that will lead to being able to do more in the shop. I'd like to be able to start a little shop-built stair business, but I think it would be a hard sell in my area. Tough to get people to change their ways.
Most guys around here want to put a small knee or curb wall on an open side. I usually try to talk the HO out of that and extend the treads out & use a mitered skirt/tread joint and set the spindles right on the treads. Looks better most of the time, IMO.
As far as scribing treads to fit between two skirtboards, thats kind of an art. A good template works wonders. I usually trace the cutline onto the tread with a knife, then use my Festool to cut right to the line. For any touch up or slight bow in the skirtboards I have to allow for, I use the belt sander. I can usually do a typical thirteen tread stair in three hours or so, if the skirts are already in place.
I built the stairs in this pic for a local hardwood supplier's showroom. Made it with one side open & one side closed, so customers can see the difference & decide for themselves.
Mike
One of the first things I learned on BT was how much things varied from one region to another. I guess this is no exception.I have never seen a shop built stairway yet. I had never heard of them before I was on BT. And I didn't realize they were so widespread..Just out of curiousity - Are the shop build stairs you guys are getting generally just the rough framing? Or are there finished treads/risers in place?
Experience is what enables you to make the same mistake again without getting caught.
Finished sets. Drop 'em between the drywall, and tie 'em in.
Paint and stain as desired.
That haircut, and a time out. All in the same week.Sucks to be you.