Does anybody think you can save serious money by making cabinets yourself, or hiring talent with tools to come and do it for you?
And I’m talking here about cabs with plain shaker-style doors . . . no shaper needed.
I’ve got quotes that range from all KD from the components guys, and from dealers that are quoting me KraftMaid, Brookhaven, and Plain & Fancy. All respectable lines.
The numbers begin at $44k and go up to $53K. Everything is apples to apples. My drawings and specs are lock-tight.
While I haven’t done a takeoff to come up with all the plywood, hardwood, melamine-coated particleboard, glue, hardware, fasteners, etc. to do the job, I’ll bet $10K would more than cover all the materials.
That leaves me with $34K, at the low end, to pay for labor to cut, fit, and assemble all these, then get them clearcoated. $34K pays for a lotta manhours.
I see pics posted all the time on this forum by guys making cabs, so it must be more cost-effective to make them on site.
Right? Or not?
Replies
Yep, you'll be save some serious jack......if
If you have a source of consistant materials, straight flat plywood
If you have the equipment to attach high end 32mm hardware
If you have the equipment to make straight cuts and perfectly jointed hardwoods
If you have the equipment to attach faceframes and drawers without do-overs
If you have reliable subs that have the shop space for large orders, and the capacity to fill your order within a reasonable time
If your subs are talented to run all that expensive equipment above
If you have laborers, blankets, and trucks with lifts to schlep those boxes around for finishing and back.
If your subs and laborers have a warranty that they will be properly made, and the financial wherewithall to back it up.
The factory boxes are all done under one roof by persons who operate superlative equipment all day long and are very experienced and they have a great warranty program, that is rarely used, because the boxes are perfectly made.
Factory Boxes expensive? Yes. But they are worth it.
My opinion is different if the cabinets are truly custom, and I hire a sub to make spectacular one of kind boxes, but really for standard fare, I wouldn't sub that stuff out, not on a tight construction time line. If this is your home, and you wanna play General Contractor, then go for it, but its not for me.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
On site? Not likely. If you have a real shop with low overhead, possibly.
Last shop I ran we had to provide Melamine cabinets for a commercial project, 60 kitchens. Was pleasantly surprised when we came within 10% of ready-made cost. That's 10% over. My employers were convinced that our quality was substantially higher. I wasn't.
Another job for them, single family house, the buyers opted for factory produced doors, saving 50% of our production cost. Product wasn't the same and I got complaints, but they'd chosen to go the cheaper route.
Expensive machinery will more than pay for itself in a well-managed shop.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I've never been able to make it work.
I think of site built cabs more like a working vacation ...
I'm not really making any money ... but I'm having fun.
another factor is the finish.
"good as" factory finishes are costly and take an experienced hand. Not saying it can't be done ... I've worked with one cab maker who's spray finishes were bullet proof.
but .. he had a cab shop in a two story warehouse ... top floor ... he constructed a huge walk in spray booth with a huge down draft system ... and in the middle of his spray booth ... had a big ... had to be 6x6 or 8x8 lazy susan.
his chemicals were all custom mixed and all had a very short shelf and pot life.
But the stuff was beautiful and nearly indestructible ...
myself .. I wouldn't even know where to begin once it came to finishing.
Maybe some real cabinet makers will stop in and set us all straight?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
btw .... your quotes ...
U getting list ... or contractors prices?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Contractors prices.
I don't think I could have bought cabinets like I'm building for the house I'm working on right now, Gene. Highly figured knotty pine. Book matched flat panels. Continuous grain along consecutive drawer fronts and stiles that are one above the other.
All plywood boxes and drawers, some prefinished, some sprayed after built, all drawers can be divided several ways either direction by sliding 1/4" partitions in precut slots in drawers, only doors in base cabinets are under sink and 1 providing access to a 1/2 susan in a blind corner, rest are all drawers, including a couple 12" deep by...I think one is 33" long, another 26"?
Using a finish for the 4th time on this same type Ponderosa Pine I would stack up against any factory finish for appearance and durability - sprayed and hand wiped oil modified polyurethane, Profin, by Daly's (at least, I'm pretty sure it's what's called an "oil modified poly").
I have just about 1k in materials and disposables specific to this job including plywood, pine, hardware, finish, glue, nails, screws, rubber gloves, rags and sandpaper. I sprayed and wiped the first coat of finish yesterday...about my 15th day on this job, including material runs and a day drawing the job with drafting tools and paper.
This is a small kitchen, for sure, but I'm getting WAY more for my buck by building them myself, far better product, and I'm further developing my craft. Others can exchange money all they want. I want to be a better carpenter. The fact that I make good money building cabinets is just a bonus.
Made about 6 bucks/hour the first set I ever built for a customer. Did better the next, better the time after that, and the time after that. It's like anything else, if you keep trying, and pay attention to your mistakes, eventually the worm turns and you start making money at it. I feel bad for all the folks who judge their sucess by how much money they make, never could see how they could afford to fail. And you can learn far more from failure than success.
But I know this isn't the prevailing wisdom in our profession. It's just the way I go about it. I have a lot of freedom other folks don't have. It wasn't always this way for me; I'm just glad I smartened up when I did. "To each thier own".
On site would be tough.
But I do it at home in my garage shop on occation and am being drawn increasingly in that direction. My biggest challenge is space. the rest a piece of cake.
A Kraftmaid 83" hard wood vanity cabinet which is 2 or 3 boxes stuck together with an odd filler strip is 12 weeks out and $1500 here in San Diego area. That's not to hard to beat.
But I have really accumulated a nice selection of tools and have enough experience to figure it out. This past project I took more time with the design, actually specing out than building. I wanted the cabinets to have perfect reveals and every piece to be the same width. ie, all the rails and stiles of the doors and face frame all worked out to 2 9/16 inch.
A software progranm would be way up on the list which while were on that subject any good cabinet design programs for Mac OSX?
Thanks,
Notrix
Gene
If I didnt have so much to do here I'd have built my own cabs.
Scored mine through Plain&Fancy....beautiful old style looking cabs but I "don't" recommend them....too many things needed reordering or were missing cause they F'd up so bad. Thank god I wasn't doing this for a customer otherwise I wouldnt get paid untill 2010.
Just a heads up in case you go that route.
Be well
and
have fun if you do em' yer self....cause it is fun...
a...
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I care less about what style the cabinets are...plain vanilla boxes, or something much fancier...and more with how they fit and scale into the room, and how they meet the needs of the user of the cabinets.
Never have I seen a case where a plain vanilla kitchen can use plain vanilla boxes and evreything is functionally and aesthetically perfect.
Tweaking acbinets a few inches here and a few inches there is what it's all about. Having the built-ins right where you want them, at the height you want them, to hold what you want...functionality.
I love building cabinets. Plain boxes done well or over-the-top stuff...as long as it's constructed well and fits.
As to saving money...yeah, there's a bit tied up in construction, and you can save there...but it's the finishing can eat up all your saved nickels and dimes.
I'd prefer to make the cabs at home in my shop, then flat-pack them and assemble them on-site. Then finish on-site.
My own house? Yeah, I'd build them no questions asked. As a matter of fact, I did.<g>
Gene, I'm not a "real cabinetmaker" but I am a finish carpenter and I make my own boxes much of the time. Often I build stuff on site, either because it's a one-off unique project or because I am also site managing at the same time. For guys like us it's easier to use 3/4" veneer core cabinet sides and bottom and 1/2" ply for the backs, which makes for a much stronger cabinet than most factory stuff. Good for all the granite counters you see out there.
It helps a lot to have a few jigs to speed work. A Festool saw would be really nice but I make do with a Skil Mag77 and a homemade cutting guide. Some jigs from Rockler for drilling shelf holes http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=893&objectgroup_id=45&catid=15&filter=shelf%20jig
and cup hinge holes http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=5878&objectgroup_id=435&catid=80&filter=hinge%20jig ,
Kreg jig, portable tablesaw, planer, and jointer and you're good to go.
It takes some practice to get efficient and figure your time, but now I figure I can build simple cabinets for between $300 and $600 a running foot, depending on complexity. That's unfinished--I used to finish my own stuff but now I either take the boxes to a pro or they get finished on site. Factory finishes are a little bit harder, but most factory stuff, though good quality if it was designed and specced properly, still looks sterile with all the fillers and high-gloss finishes. Custom made stuff can look better, fit the space better, and cost not much more than factory-made.
Mike
There was just a thread partially about this on JLC. I definitely wouldn't cut, band, and drill panels from full sheets on site, but you could consider ordering cut, banded, and drilled panels from a large shop and then assembling them onsite. For a few cents more than the sheet goods cost you, a shop with a beam saw, an edgebander, and a CNC drill can cut and machine everything to your specs and then deliver them shrink-wrapped on a pallet. These guys buy truckloads of sheet materials and pay less than you do, and are tooled up to where low-cost labor can do the work.
Once the parts get to you, assemble them with confirmat screws, staple on the backs, attach drawer slides and hinge mounting plates, and hang them. Use Novaply if you need finished interiors. The finished exterior parts are handled separately. Doors and DFs are made by a cabinet door manufacturer, and the 35mm hinge holes are drilled (exactly where you specify, so they match the holes the panel processor drills). Finished ends may be doors or may be slabs depending on the design. All the parts needing finishing go to a finishing shop. The drawers come from another manufacturer and are shipped to the site already finished. Lots of cabinet shops build miles of cabinets and rarely bring a full 4x8 sheet into the shop.
Yeah... you could do it, but I wouldn't. Find a good custom shop and give them the job. They can measure, make shop drawings, build, deliver, and install. I can't remember meeting a contractor who thought he had time to do all of that. If you have a finish guy good enough to do all this, he's making $25+ per hour and you should have him doing stuff that can't be done by a $12 guy with a good machinery setup.
Does anybody think you can save serious money by making cabinets yourself, or hiring talent with tools to come and do it for you?
Well, apparently there is at least one person near me who thinks that there are major savings by have the cabs built on site. He had me come out to do a look-see, in hopes of getting a quote.
He had already decided that he would be ordering factory made doors, drawers, and drawer fronts. But he didn't want to "pay the astronomical price" for cabinet shop boxes.
I explained to him that it would be difficult for a carpenter to compete with cabinet shop prices, since most shops operate like factories.
He got a really dumb look on his face, and couldn't understand why I said I was leaving without giving him a quote.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
Can you describe the layout and the number of cabinets? Are they standard size or are there a lot of custom ones? What kind of wood? Any crown molding? I'm trying to get a sense for what you're getting for $44K+.
It's a big job. U-shaped kitchen with large island, panel and trim for the big Sub-Zero, phone desk, pantry, broom closet, two other full height "closets" with shelving, big laundry room, master suite dressing hall with six large 48x56 clothes cabs, double drawers below, shoe cubbies, three 42" bath vanities, a custom 66" vanity, tall linen closet, entertainment center cabs in LR, mudroom, and a big tall bookcase array 12' wide by over 9' tall, going up the staircase. Select cherry and select maple fronts, all drawerboxes dovetailed and 5/8" thick sides, Blum Tandem full extension slides, everything finished.
Scherr's has the best quote and I have done a big job using them before. Also worked with Cab Parts for carcases, Conestoga for complete jobs, and Keystone Wood Specialties for finished doors and drawerfronts.
Scherr's flat-packs all the carcase parts, and ships drawers fully assembled and finished, plus of course all the doors and drawerfronts.
It's all frameless (from Scherr's), and Brookhaven is quoted frameless. KraftMaid and Plain & Fancy are quoted faceframed. Either way, it is all full overlay.
Much of the kitchen, mudroom, and laundry lays out on the 3" increment width sizing, but a lot of the job is "custom." Some wall cabs are deeper than standard, some shallower. The island is a custom build, as are the staircase shelf modules, the entertainment center, the large vanity, and the master suite dressing cabs.
With Scherr's it's a complete single-source package. I love working with Scherr's . . . Leon Scherr and I have developed a smooth working relationship. They will do anything for me. With the other packages, the dealers have had to twin source the work, some from the manufacturer, the balance (custom work) from local shops.
I started this thread because a good friend of mine, who builds a high-end custom about each year, questioned me. He has always had his cabinetry done by the same guy, another mutual friend, guy works solo, $35 per hour, does it all, finished and sanded silky smooth, ready for the painter. Takes a lot of time off to ski, though, and other things. You gotta figure Mr. Cab Guy at about 30 hours per week, max.
We looked this one over and figured Mr. Cab Guy would be in the house about 20 weeks making chips and sawdust, there's about twenty grand, but then there is the material. We thought maybe ten grand, tops, for everything, including the finishing materials. Finishing at maybe $6k, tops.
Sure, there is a savings in doing it on site, but the time factor just blows the schedule.
I'm with Mountain Biker, what are (or where from) you getting for that sum?
The medium ($30 million in sales) large shop in town will ship to any of the large cities in Texas at around $160-175 per lineal foot. That's installed; unfinished (sanding sealer, though); 30" tall uppers with adjustable shelves; 1/2" overlay doors on knife-hinges; hardwood face-frame with hardwood doors & drawers (four species); on 1/2" PB carcasses; using the "stock" square raised panel door style.
Finishing adds maybe 5%, you can pick from 27 colors in three sheens. Going with 36" uppers adds another 5%, 42" uppers another 3-4% over 36" tall.
Economies of scale, it's only like a 2% upcharge to add full-extension huides to all of the drawers; concealed euro undermount drawer guides are only 4% more (or were couple of years ago).
Now, you might could shave some of those dollars in your quote off by installing the boxes yourself. That depends on whether you then get billed for shipping and other similar factors (the shop in town pays the sales tax--most of 8%--if you "buy" installation too, some of which is in Texas Sales tax law).
It's all in what you want.
If you can find a guy to give you $34k worth of cabinets for less... then you will get exactly what you pay for... cheap cabinets.
I do cabinet installs ... and custom builds... and by FAR the more expensive route is to go custom build. About 3 times more expensive. Granted, the custom stuff is nice, when done right... and the "little things" are a BIG plus. But if saving money is the goal... custom build is NOT cheaper, when done right. It's simply a matter of mass-production vs one-of-a-kinds.
The only time I recommend custom builds is when the customer has very specific customization wants and needs... be they aesthetic or function. Odd shaped kitchens, specialty design wants, multi-species cabs, exotic woods, etc.
A few hints for buying factory cabs.
Look for an outlet store in your area that specializes in cabinets. Typically, if there is a large cab manufacturer in town... there will be an outlet of some sort. The prices will be anywhere from 25% to 50% of contractor pricing. Many of the best deals are on canceled orders... in other words... they are firsts, just were canceled sometime before delivery.
Find a cab factory in your area. Many of the factories have tag sales (or something similar) on a given day. Real simple... you go to the warehouse on that given day (typically once a month), and tag the items you want to purchase. Go with two (maybe three) different layout possibilities. Take a partner to help you find what you want (lots of people competing for the stock). Depending on the factory... savings can be as high as 90%. Tag sales at the factory are typically "small blemish"... but sometimes you get overruns. (The majority of blemishes are not on the faces... they are scratches on the sides, etc)
Hints for self-building cabs.
Buy materials from a local supplier. The cost of shipping is too high to offset savings. Don't try to save money by buying "common lumber". You can buy shorts from most bigger suppliers... and that is cool and will save you about 15%... but be sure it's FAS.
If you need to buy equipment, don't sacrifice quality for price. cabinet work (when done right) requires tolerances of 1/64 or 1/128. The cheap equipment just will NOT be that accurate.
Most valuable piece of equipment... even more valuable that a good table saw... is the Krieg Jig mentioned above. Doweling was how we all were taught... but the pocket screw is better and more accurate.
Kinda surprised at the comments I'm seeing in this thread. I can't imagine spending upwards of $30k for an entire kitchen, let alone just the cabinets. When DW and I budgeted for our new house, she made it clear that a) I had a shop full of high-end machinery capable of building cabinets and b) the ability to do so, and therefore we were not buying cabinets.
So we set aside $3500. That's right, $3500, for the cabinets. That does *not* include countertop, fixtures and appliances, but it does include plywood, glue, pocket holes screws, drawer slides, hinges and some glass. Granted, it's probably a bit low, but I'll probably have $5k in it when I'm done. The kitchen is an 'ell' with 12' and 14' legs, and a center island. Everything, with maybe three exceptions, will be modular, and drawer bases. I have the machines, and I have a large stockpile of hardwood for the face frames and drawer/door fronts. As far as finishes - shellac is nice. Not the most durable thing in the world, but a dewaxed shellac is food safe and renewable (and surprisingly water resistant). We'll keep the design simple - flat panels and flush drawers, with an occasional chamfer or bead to keep it interesting. No fancy crown mould or dentils, no raised panels, just basic, solid construction. Pocket screws and bridle joints and nothing but a drill, table saw and trim router needed.
I can't tolerate the pressed termite barf with plastic veneer that passes for cabinet carcases these days, and there's no reason a decent shop grade 1/2" birch or maple ply can't be used for everything that doesn't show. You can build the toekick out of 2x4's, separate from the cabinets, and shim and level that prior to installing the boxes. That makes everything already level and square. Plus, you have complete control over the size, shape and structural rigidity of the carcases.
Of course, not everyone has the capability to make site-built cabinets, but those that do, always appear to be a superior product to anything mass-produced.