First of all, wasn’t quire sure whether I oughta post here or in the HVAC forum, and here’s why:
my question for you all is about Sound Proofing a wall.
We just bought a 100-year old farmhouse in Northern Indiana, and it is a sweet little house. It is also about 1500 yards from a railroad crossing, and by law, that train’s gotta blow it’s whistle when aproaching any crossing.
We told ourselves when we bought it that we’d get used to the noise, and pretty soon wouldn’t even hear that train coming through in the wee hours.
I”m doing some remodeling before moving in, and the job has gotten bigger than I thought it would be, meaning specifically that we have ended up tearing off some bad plaster back to the lathing. My wife wants me to take advantage of this and put up some sound proofing, even though we had not originally thought to do so.
I have ended up spending quite a few hours at Lowe’s, etc., looking at what they offer. (My wife has found some soundproofing material manufacturers on the internet, too.) Now I am as confused as a guy can get. It all seems to come in at about the same price (approx. $5 sq. foot).
This is my first time to post here (been lurking for quite some time now) and I am really needing your advice right about now!
Questions include issues of trapping moisture, and issues of intalling the product the right way, and wondering what your experience has been and if there is a name brand that you think works better than others (my buddy and I will be installing it, and he’s better at drywall and stuff than I am.)
That all said, I am looking forward to learning a thing or two here.
Doug
Replies
I think there are two reasonable options. One is to install offset studs between the existing ones, stepping them out about 2 inches. Insulate in-between (of course) and put double rock on the finished wall (no need to tape the first course). Install the first course vertically and the second horizontally. Don't forget to use extended outlet boxes.
The second option is to use special metal strips that are, I believe, Z shaped. These act as springs between the existing wall and a new layer (or two) of drywall.
First off remove the lath and insulate the stud cavities. Dense pack celulose would be best(both for sound proofing and heat loss). Since your walls are open you might want to consider upgrading/adding some more outlets. Then add a layer of homosote followed by horzontily applied resilient channeling. The resiliant channeling comes in differnt styles(like the z stuff mentioned) which isolates the DW from the studs and absorbs some sound energy. You should also consider storm panels for the windows.
My experience has been that sound travels well thru Fiberglass insulation.
The z strips help alot.
The best way is to build an offset wall with Homosote and 2 layers of drywall.
Try to isolate the top and bottom of the wall on Homosote also.
Seal all gaps and openings well, as a small opening lets in alot of noise.
The primary way noise will get in is around the doors and windows.
Good tight weatherstripping, storm panals on windows, storm doors, solid wood doors (not hollow) and such will go a long way toward quieting things down.
Real soundprooof rooms require alot of work to produce.
Good luck
Jeff
As long as you are at the point of having the walls open, and are looking at some high dollar materials, here is what I wou;ld recommend.
All of my customers who have had urethene foam insulation sprayed into wall cavities report that it is the quiestest house they have ever lived in.
you will also solve many of the insulation and vapor bar issues that you might potentially have. Corbond is one brand name.
That said, Windows are the point of entry for most exterior noise getting into the house. Solid wood or clad wood with insulated glass is far better at preventing sound transmission than single pane glass.
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I'm gonna try to respond and address all the previous responses, and I'm sure I'll overlook something, but let me give it a try.
Ok, I have had a chance to digest what you all have been saying, and it has lead me to these further thoughts.
I hear you on the studs, etc., but was thinking something a bit, er, thinner, so as to maintain as much floorprint as possible. I do seem to recall reading about your technique for thermal insulation before, or was it something else. My mind's gettin'' fuzzier and fuzzer lately!
Anyway, your reply leads me to another question, which is, how well DOES regular (thermal) insulation work as sound proofing? I'm a-guessin' it doesn't work too well, which is why I am on this chase.
I am also recollecting back to how loud that whistle is, and I have to tell you that it can get REALLY LOUD. So, I have been thinking that some Serious Sound Proofing Material would be the way to go.
I'd sure hate to go to a ton of trouble and all only to find out the the reduciton in decibels wasn't worth it all. I'm hoping for something Pretty Seriously Darned Quiet after going through the trouble of putting up and learning how to install some specific product.
Here is the URL for one of the products online that google dug up: http://store.yahoo.com/soundproofing/
the web site says to they have "We have a beautiful showroom in the Rose Canyon Business Park, at 4901 Morena Blvd. Ste. 327, San Diego, CA 92117", but that's a bit too far to drive in one day. :-) (I'm in freezing cold Indiana)
Wondering what you and others have to say on products like the one above.
And, thanks for the heads-up on the idea of adding insulation. I am happy to say that the previous owner had sprayed in cellulose, so that is taken care of. So I just have to focus on deadening the sound of that lonesome whistle blowin' in the dead of the night (wonder if I'll get to where I can recognize which train is which??!)
I probably didn't communicate the problem too well, so let me tag on here at the end that this is not an ordinary sound thang that most people might think of in their houses. It's more severe, so that's why I am thinking about Real Sound Proofing material and am willing to spend some bucks on it.
And, sigh, yes, I know the windows and doors are the problem areas, just hoping to do what I can!! :-) Today the walls, tomorrow the windows.
Doug
{QUOTE]
I hear you on the studs, etc., but was thinking something a bit, er, thinner, so as to maintain as much floorprint as possible. I do seem to recall reading about your technique for thermal insulation before, or was it something else. My mind's gettin'' fuzzier and fuzzer lately!
Anyway, your reply leads me to another question, which is, how well DOES regular (thermal) insulation work as sound proofing? I'm a-guessin' it doesn't work too well, which is why I am on this chase.
[QUOTE]
You can make the double-studded wall as thin as you like. Set the new studs into the old stud cavities, leaving them only an inch or two offset -- more is better, of course, but whatever you can live with.
Insulation works by adding mass and by providing viscoelasticity -- like a fluid-filled shock absorber -- to "burn" sound energy. Insulation can also "trap" sound like one of those sound-absorber walls in a radio studio, but that's only important at higher frequencies (and it's the low frequencies that will be the problem here).
Re the whistle, it should only be an issue if your house is near a crossing such that they blow the whistle near you. Observe the train as it passes your location (both ways) to see when they blow the whistle.
For the windows, storms will be more effective than double-pane glass. I've even seen one place (a hotel right next to some tracks) where they used two regular windows back to back, set into a wall that was a foot or so thick. I was there for two days before I even realized the tracks were there.
There is one final possibility, but expensive and high-tech. You can buy (or rather contract to have installed) sound-cancelling electronics. Basically it's a sound system that is set up to exactly cancel the sound coming in.
Hector,
You're right to be wary. Most thermal insulation as near no effect on sound transmission. It will absorb airborne sound if it is exposed, but once you seal it into a stud cavity, it does very little for sound. The path of sound through your walls will mostly be from the outside surface through the studs to the inside surface, not from one surface through the air space and insulation to the inside surface. What you have to do is interrupt the path of sound transmission. There are two ways of doing that: 1- add mass and, 2- add discontinuities. At every change in material through the sound path, the incident sound will lose some energy,
As far as your walls are concerned, adding what's called resilient channel, homosote and double drywall as described above, does both of those things and will be very effective while not costing you much floor space.
The ceiling could be treated the same way if necessary, that is, RC channel and a new layer of drywall over the old. By the way, when installing drywall on RC channel you are trying to miss the places where the channel is attached to the framing so the whole drywall panel is hanging a little loose. This gives the sound path a partial discountinuity or an elastic continuity. Use short screws to fasten the drywall to the channel so they don't touch the other surface.
You then have to deal with you windows and doors. That might well be harder. One small old and poorly fitting window might allow more sound to pass than a vast expanse of wall. Even a poorly sealed gap around a good window will allow sound to pass. Anyway, apply the same principles. You can't very well add mass to a window, but can you add another layer of glass? A tight fitting storm door?
Big trees outside the windows will help, too, but I don't suppose you can wait 50 or 60 years.
Good Luck
Ron
I live very close to a major track too. Not to mention I found out that they are gonna put a new 4lane highway about 350' behind my house Actually right behind my will be the down side of a tall overpass, (yea were real excited). anyways I have skim coat urathane foam and densepack cellulose and that works much better than fiberglass. but to be honest with you the biggest difference you can make would be a row of arborvitea, white pines, or something else to use as a good soundbreak. I dont know where you are located, but if you dont have much of a winter you could prolly get away with something like lombardy poplars, or something like that. double or triple row and stagger them, It'll take a little while for them to grow but the difference is HUGE.
Spray foam is the very best thermal insulation and it does about three hundred percent better at sound insulation than fibreglas batts.
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Hector,
We have some experience with soundproofing - having done it for various gun ranges <g>. The suggestions of staggerd studs - usually 2x4s on 2x6 sills works well, as does doubling up on the rock. We did both on a wall between a large compressor and the rest of humanity.
The idea is to decouple and turn the sound waves. We find that if you can make the waves turn three times, not much energy is left. Thus we build "L shaped entrances to the ranges. With the addition of the correct sound proofing sheets (not suitable for your project), you can have a conversation without ear muffs at one end of the range while they are firing rifles at the other.
The insulation you need is probably not at the Depot. Fibreglass is useless. You want something that we buy as "rock wool." which is a dense mineral fiber.
T Bear
"You want something that we buy as "rock wool." which is a dense mineral fiber. "
can you give us a sense of cost on rockwool or similar products? I think it also comes in different thicknesses...
thx
Alas, my cost data on that project would be about nine years out of date. Inflation is dead, we have been reassured, but I suspect that it is more now than then. Would not even know where to find it now. I am down in CA. Job was up in WA.
Stuff did work very well. A range master station done in 2x6, not uncoupled 2x4 on 2x6 plates, with 4-0,4-0 quad glazing, showed a significant .db reduction. Didn't have to wear ear muffs when they shot rifles right outside the window, as before.
The Kenmore range talked to the developer building on their property line. Got him to do 2x6 sound walls and extra windows on that side of the homes. Kept the whining down nicely.
ToolBear
Here's a good site with quantitative technical design information for sound reduction.
http://www.usg.com/Design_Solutions/2_3_4_acoustictips.asp
Some key points:
One thought on theory. Sound likes to travel though uniform materials better than mixed. This theory applies to walls as well as anything else (library, sound studios...). Using this thought I would try to mix materials when the opportunity presented. Rock wool is used extensively in commercial work because of it's fire rating... It happens to be a fairly good attenuate of sound as well. When you hang sheet rock I would suggest the z channel (you can make it with access to a sheet metal break) and hand instead of two layers of sheet rock use two layers; one of other than sheet rock (particle board, hardboard...) and one of sheet rock.
Additionally I succeeded in making a place quiet (I thought the project would be tossing lots of $ in a fire) with the use of high quality cling tiles. They made a huge difference!
Last note is that the federal government in Oct 2004 will delegate to the local Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) the right to determine if an rail road crossing needs to have a whistle blown. Here in the Portland Oregon area this means some local VERY expensive houses on the river have a crossing which is the only access to their drive. The city is developing plans and funds to upgrade the crossing (AHJ requirement for the elimination of whistle). This plan is getting VERY enthusiastic support from the folks living on the street in 2,000,000 houses with a whistle being blown at 2AM most days. They are calling the most government officials involved with the project weekly.
You might check into your local AHJ to see if they have any plans.
Used to have a book on sound proofing in construction. Research was done at some university. I've wished at least a hundred times I could find that book, but I think I loaned it out...
The main thing that sticks in my mind for cheap and effective sound proofing: They glued styrofoam cups in a random pattern to the back of the sheetrock on interior walls. Just that. Regular old styrofoam coffee cups. Book claimed it worked wonders to deaden sound transmission.
I've never tried to find it by Googling.
Something is what it does.
I bet that would work well for sound insulation. Wouldn't last as long as steel channel in a fire, though.
Ron
But who wants to hear all that screaming and hollerin' anyway
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If you built a cavity wall and filled it solid up with books like that it would be both soundproof and highly fire resistant. How about laying up books on building and parging both sides with mortar?
Ron
Looking at the problem from a different angle, consider some measures outside the home too. Could get very pricey, but a 12 - 15 foot high berm between you and the tracks would be ideal. Another idea that would be less $ but likewise less effective would be some heavy vegetation between you and the tracks. Not sure if Leland cyprus grow where you live, but they are cheap and fast growing.
Well, well.
I sure did come to the right place. What a list of insightful answers. I have enough to chew on for quite a while.
I am reassured to hear from those-in-the-know that if nothing else, I will get used to the sound.
I will look into the "Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) the right to determine if an rail road crossing needs to have a whistle blown" issue, too.
As is to be expected, I learned a lot, and will be coming back and re-reading this thread several times, to be sure.
I have to say that idea of the books is, er, intriguing! I also like the idea of stryofoam cups!
When I was a young one, I took a job in a restaurant. Not too interesting, BUT, they have these square pressed paper thingies that the eggs came in. I'm guessin' there must have been about a gross in each tray. So, I saved 'em up and took 'em home to my dad, who had a woodshop out in the garage. When there got to be enough, one day, we stapled 'em up all around the wall. Sure made a big difference in sound and heat. Hmm. I'd forgotten all about that.
Off to the internet to look further into details that you all brought up (like, what is Homosote (ha -- already looked that one up!!), etc.
"I'm on my way,
I don't know where I'm goin',
I'm on my way,
I'm takin' my time, but I don't know where. "
-- Paul Simon
Doug
Thirty eggs to the 'flat'
I used to work in an egg factory in Cucamonga, Calif, tailing the line
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Building materials (loosely woven fiberglass, wood, etc) are not acoustically designed. Anything you find in a building supply place is likely second best (for sound insulation). I bought materials from Acoustical Solutions to cover pipes, and insulate walls. They work great.
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/
Woodside.
I've done retrofitting of houses near airports, and my office building sits right nest to a train track and a fire station, so I feel your pain. You have some really good suggestions above with the insulation and weather stripping. Look into special sound attenuation windows. They have three layers of glass. They are way more effective if you vary the thickness and type of glass, and the air space in between. If you don't want to spend that money, you can use a plain old insulated glass window with a separate storm panel. For example, even if you are going to use a regular insulated double glazed window, and then a storm panel, make the thicknesses of the glass vary, then use plexiglas for the storm panel. You will be totally suprised at the difference it makes.
Also, trees are great for breaking up sound, especially dense evergreens. I have successfully used landscaped earth mounds four to six feet tall, with plantings above them. They actually look nicer in the landscape than flat plantings too. The earth mounds help break up sound, especially if the noise is at the same level as the living spaces.
Also use resilient channels on the drywall. They break up the low frequency vibration very well. In the houses near airports, we are also adding air conditioning so they don't ahve to to open those nice new windows.
Caulking every gap is essential too.
Get your kid to learn to play the drums or the trumpet as a last resort. The train won't sound so bad.
Good luck
Hasbeen!
Borrow some.
I like your house by the way. It's kinda simialr to one I'll be starting as soon as we can see some ground again.
Ron
That was a place where you could drive for a mile and a half with nothing but cow stanchions lining the road the whole way. Bovines coupled with tubes that brought them water and sucked them free of their milk, while one cart brought them feed and another rinsed down the automatic gutters.
It defied the immagination. I think I'm still suffering from the sight.
Orwellian
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Hasbeen,
I'm building in Nova Scotia, just outside Halifax. Mine'll be ICF construction. ICF houses are as sound resistant as the windows are.
Ron
First, I have to give my humorous reply. To wit, you may be getting less sleep but more nookie in the hew house:
http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/babtrain.htm
Now for my serious reply. I concur strongly with the thoughts about offset studs, resilent channel, tight doors and windows, trees, double windows/storms, earth berms, and spray-in-place foam (I, thermally and acoustically, live in a big styrofoam cup). I also agree with double sheetrock, not as much as the above, but it is way cheap and only another 5/8".
And now, a new idea: I got a 300-foot, 10-foot-tall berm for nothing when the neighbor was clearing his lot. I offered to take the stumps and brown dirt (saved them hauling to the dump) if they layed them down in a berm. I did it for visual reasons (crappy little houses 700 feet away), but it is also has great acoustical benefits. In a place that actually charges dump fees, you may well be able to get someone to dump clean fill or stumps for free if you ask around. Then cover with a bit of top soil, plant grass seed and alders/popular/something fast growing on top.
I notice sound (and smell) transmission much greater during an inversion in the winter. The sound stays between the ground the inversion layer 10-20 feet up and maintains its strength much better than when it dissipates in 3 dimensions. A berm would help a lot on those days. Good luck.
Of course, you should be aware that buried stumps can really attract termites and other nasties in some parts of the country.
Good point, for those of you with Canadians to your north instead of to your south where they belong.
No termites up here (nor fleas nor posionous snakes).
And our noise problem ain't the RR - that's 50 miles away. It's those nat'l guard C-130s practicing at the local airport. I'm glad for my sprayed-in-place urethane foam each time they go over.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Yeah, I spent some time in Fairborn, Ohio, near the Wright-Pat SAC base. When they scrambled at 3 AM just the engines warming up would wake you out of a sound sleep, even though they were probably 3 miles away.
The worst things were those KC135s.
Hector, you have a multitude of answers already, so what's one more.
Integrity Construction Gaskets makes a stick to the stud face foam tape that isolates the sheetrock from becoming a sounding board.It also helps break the thermal bridge. It is reasonably priced. You can look them up at http://www.IntergityGasket.com or call them at 1-800-494-4148, ask for Dean. He is very helpful. PaulEnergy Consultant and author of Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
Re spelling correction..www.IntegrityGasket.com paul
Edited 3/3/2004 9:11:30 PM ET by Paul Hayden
Now that sounds like another good idea worth marking down.
Which I'll have to do since the link didn't work.
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Piffin, thanks, I re read the web site and found my spelling error. Try http://www.IntegrityGasket.com. Green tape is 1/8" thick, adhesive backed, thermal K val of .28, thin enough so that sheet rock doesn't "hang" on it.
Supposed to reduce human voice transmission quite well. Should be a winner for steel studs for thermal break as well. PaulEnergy Consultant and author of Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
??????????
That one denied me access too so I just Googled and found,
http://www.integritygasket.com/
which worked fine.
I'm interested
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I couldn't get it to go through either from just hitting the site here on the chat room, but entering it into the web window worked fine. I have found a lot of sites posted in forums won't connect, but must be re entered. PaulEnergy Consultant and author of Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
Very timley thread for me as I'm about to sound proof my house !
I have a question about doing the offset studs on existing 2X4 walls.
You are talking about putting down a new plate, and framing a new wall off of that, seperated from the existing. Unless you use 2X2s as the new studs, you're loosing quite a bit of room space.
I guess my question is, is it worth it to open up the walls, and just frame a new wall off of the existing plate (new studs between each of the existing studs), with the new studs offset say 1 1/2" into the room ? Then SRock and homosote the new.
You've created a new wall which is still connected to the old at the plate.
Generally a sound wall ort party wall is coinstructed with a 2x6 plate and 2x4 studs, one row facing out and one row facing in with no direct connection between the two. pretty close to what you describe.
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[QUOTE]
I have a question about doing the offset studs on existing 2X4 walls.
You are talking about putting down a new plate, and framing a new wall off of that, seperated from the existing. Unless you use 2X2s as the new studs, you're loosing quite a bit of room space.
Common practice is to use 2x6 plates and stagger the studs. With existing construction you could scab a 2x2 to the existing plate and still stagger 2x4 studs.