I know the right way and I’ll do it but darn it why?
I have cutouts in my SIP’s for electrical boxes but in using them they will leave the light slightly proud of the wall. It would be so much easier to make the connections and stuff them into the cutouts and then put the lights directly onto the wall. instead I’ll wind up having the lights eing slightly proud of the wall connected the correct way but taking a lot more time to do and slightly less secure mounting.. Is it ever ok to not use a box to make a connection?
It’s not like the boxes are fireproof (they’re plastic) or air tight (I can see plenty of air gaps in them) the hole they are going into is slightly larger than the boxes are so it’s not a matter of size..
Please give me a reason why?
Replies
In the future, it would be best not to use the term Sparkie if you are looking for anyone to read your thread. I would assume you didnt mean anything by it, but many of the electricians on the site feel it is derogatory.
Im not an electrician, but I believe the boxes are there for future access, and to contain an arc if one should occur. They also control the wire from being pulled further into the wall if used properly.
-zen
Zendo, why would anyone consider the term sparkie derogatory?
Your kidding right?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
blue,
It was new to me, but I heard it here a few weeks ago. Im just refering what I heard, because some of the more qualified electricians talked back and forth about how they wouldnt even open a thread if it spouted 'Sparkie' in the Title.
So I felt like I could honor that.
-zen
I think it was only Gunner who said that..but , I can see his point.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Every human choice bows like a slave in submission to the absolute creative will, yet this does not deprive us of freedom or fear of taking responsibility for what we choose
( Mansavi V,(3097-98_)))))>
I think boxes more than anything, provide a secure place to splice and make connections, and keep them safe from mechanical damage. Just my 2 cents...but then again, I'm not a 'sparky'. Ooooooops, I did it now! I said the 'S' word! My bad.
Peace
It was Gunner, myself, and a few others.
Maybe a regional thing, but "sparkie" around here is generally reserved for the rookie, apprentice, or just plane screw-up guy that always manages to let the smoke out of everything they work on. Kind of like calling the framer "wood butcher", and the trim guy "hatchet man".
I don't let it bother me any more. I have qualified for all those terms over the years :)
Dave
Sparkie is traditional. Doctors get 'Doc'. Plumber gets 'Pipes'. Duct man gets 'Tinman'.Shock jockey.
Wires.
Had one guy call me 'volts'.Generally electricians see sparks as a sign of something gone wrong. You see too many sparks associated with an electrician and you might think he or she doesn't know what is going on.I guess analogous to calling a plumber 'leaky'. Leaks generally being a bad thing for a plumber.On a personal basis I don't generally feel insulted, a lot of it depends on how it is said, when people call me 'sparks'. In a smiling and jovial tone it is a fair handle. I have seen electricians use the nickname with a sneering and insulting tone directed at another electrician. Presumably because of a perceived lack of talent. Hopefully a temporary punishment for a minor infraction.
analagous to " woodbutcher".....
i think my old boss would say
are you a "carpinctur or porcintur"...... which may,or may not, be portuguese slangMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
When I built Pipe Organs...oh..we WON't go there...[g]
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Every human choice bows like a slave in submission to the absolute creative will, yet this does not deprive us of freedom or fear of taking responsibility for what we choose
( Mansavi V,(3097-98_)))))>
Call 770-4-sparky. See what you get - an electrician firm in Etlanner, Jawja. They advertise on the radio all the time. All I can say to any electrician who gets whacked out of shape over it is "Get over it!"Don (former ammo humper, & proud of it!)The GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
heh, heh,heh... frenchy said "sparkie"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The box keeps any combustible materials in the walls away from from the terminals of the outlet/switch/electrical device, and help contain any possible arcing.
As far as the sparkie nickname goes, maybe it's a regional thing...I'm in Minnesota like Frenchy is, and it gets used here all the time. Heck, I'm an electrical engineer and people sometimes call me sparkie, too.
Now, plumbers...those guys get some nicknames that aren't nearly as nice. ;-)
I understand that it contains the possiblity of arching but tell me, then why are there air gaps in the boxes? if a spark could cause trouble shouldn't we have a sealed box?
Just whining now since I've got half of the boxes done already and the others won't take very long..
Yeh I've never seen a sparkie take offence, well maybe Mike Smith <G>
That's a good question, and I don't know the answer. I guess it's one of those things I've always just accepted (that boxes are required) but never thought much about. Now, if you're doing low voltage stuff, I think you probably don't need a box- the requirements are a lot looser. All the code says is to install in a "neat and workmanlike manner."
I'm a little curious about why your boxes won't fit all the way into the knockouts in the SIPs...can't you just carve out a little bit more of the foam behind the box so it goes all the way into the wall?
I hole sawed the panels to take the boxes and I selected a size too small.. little work with an air file corrected thatbut I just had to whine.. darn snow!
Across the pond carpenters are "chippies".....
.........did somebody need some junction boxes buried????
Be right over, heh, heh.............
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Why are your boxes proud of your wall? what type of box are you using? nail-on? maybe you should switch to another type of box.Contact your SIP manufacturer,they've probably seen this before.Please do not skip the boxes.they do a good job of protecting connections.Boxes are important in fire rated walls, I think even the cheap plastic boxes are rated fire resistive for 1 hour.
Todd
Leaks generally being a bad thing for a plumber.
Lead in yur boot would be a bad thing for a plumber too.
I call the plumber poop juice.
No the boxes I'm using are what's recommended by the SIP manufactorer*. I could solve the problem by cutting the sheetrock around the box, recessing the box further into the wall and then appling a mud base to building everything back up.. I may do that but for last night I left things about a 1/16th proud of the wall. once I get the wallpaper on I'll see how things look and take my action then.
* they're the type used in remodeling work with "wings" that come out after they are put in the hole.. remember These are SIP's with no studs to nail anything to..
Can you mill that 1/16 off the face of the boxes with affecting the installation technique as you'd be able to do sawing the standard plastic boxes used during normal renovations?
No, the lip is needed to hold the box into the SIP (remember no studs! )
Could it be time for Gorilla Glue? <G>
Your joke may not be entirely without merit.I have used another form of Gorilla Glue, Great Stuff foam, mount electrical boxes in walls too tender for normal old-work, drywall or other sheet goods, mounting.I would think that a mounting in a SIP could be effected in similar fashion. The drill would go something like this:Remove the troublesome boxes. Rework or create the hole in the normal way for an old-work box. Remove the foam core of the SIP as needed. Mount the box in the normal manner with the cables pulled in. Foam around and behind the box. A misting of water increases the rate the foam hardens and may increase the bonding. The wafer board exterior of the SIPs, in this case, should provide a sound enough structural mounting, unless the hole was oversized. The foam would recreate the foam removed to install the box. If the old-work box lacks a regular mount a couple of pieces of lath or other material could be employed across the face of the box, held in place with drywall screws into the surrounding wall, to hold the box in place as the foam is applied and hardens.I have used a similar time with old, moisture softened drywall seen in some bathrooms and similar. Too tender to allow use of a receptacle the old-work box hangs off this material just well enough for the foam to fill the wall cavity. Typically I use most of a tall can of foam on a box. The wall is filled for some distance around the box and this greatly reinforces the structure.A lot less foam would be needed with the box mount in the SIPs but the principle holds.
With the tighter tolerances around the box in the SIP, it's starting to sound like a liquidnail type tube adhesive could work as well.
You are saying the boxes are mounted to the SIP and then sheetrock is hung over the SIP?
Trying to picture how the box could be proud of the wall surface if this the case.
Maybe a bad day for mental images here. Can you explain for this simple mind?
Dave
Plastic boxes.
Slightly proud of the wall.
Dozuki razor pull saw.
Lay flat on wall.
Surgery on the box.
Then apply the light.
Presto.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
It isn't that simple. I would have to recess the mounting points too and then I'd well, the boxes are poorly designed for the application. You'd never see them in a ceiling but on a wall it's a differant perspective..