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Sparkys, What Wire Tracer?

PeterJ | Posted in General Discussion on January 7, 2005 03:37am

We’ve got a weird old switching system in our house. All wall switches are low voltage and control (via 22 ga. wire) remote relays installed in the service area. It’s a little quirky, but we’ve learned it’s personality.

I wanna clean up the rat’s nest of  wire at the relays and need to trace wires form switch to relay. I’m eyeballin’ the tracers that send a signal at one end and find it at the other via tone generator.

Does it sound like I’m barking up the right tree? Recomendations appreciated.  Besides the task at hand, I’m thinking I’ll find other uses for such a tool as I remodel the house.

 

PJ

Whatever you can do or dream you can,
Begin it
Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.                             Goethe

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Replies

  1. User avater
    BillHartmann | Jan 07, 2005 03:56am | #1

    Yes that is what you want.

    A Tone Tracer . Consists of a generator and receiver.

    Lowes and HD have them I have a Prograess /Ideeal , about $80-90.

  2. User avater
    Sphere | Jan 07, 2005 04:00am | #2

    Listen to Bill..we used them on pipeorgan circuts @ 12v.

     

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    I'll just do it>

     

     

  3. JohnSprung | Jan 07, 2005 04:20am | #3

    If this is a one-time do it yourself project, you can go a lot more low tech and low cost.  All you need is a clip lead and VOM. 

    Disconnect all the relays and switches. First, run thru all the pairs at the relay end checking for continuity with the VOM, to make sure there aren't any shorts in the system. One by one, use the clip lead to short the wires at a switch location, then go down to the relay location with the VOM and check pairs until you find the shorted one.  Label it and go on to the next.  Save the money you would have put into a tone tracer, you're sure to find some way to spend it on the house.  ;-)

     

    -- J.S.

     

    1. User avater
      PeterJ | Jan 07, 2005 04:52am | #4

      What I hope to do is migrate over to a cleaner install a little at a time. I also want to get the wiring off the underside of floor where it is now for eventual  hydronic heat tubing. I've got the VOM, but really want a new tool...perfect excuse.

      I'll need to get a new and bigger box for all the relays and mount it about five feet away from current conflageration.  Probably use the old one as a junction box for the ac lines, which will need to be extended to new box. I'm thinking punch down telephone terminal strips for the low voltage stuff which is hanging like a big gob of spaghetti now. I'm guessing there are about 50 pairs, give or take. Several lights are switched from three or four places. Probably the hot ticket when the house was built in '64... sparky's nightmare now. The house was owner built by a cabinet maker, has a load of character, which we like...er...ah...I convinced Pam we like.PJ

      Whatever you can do or dream you can, Begin it Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.                             Goethe

    2. DanH | Jan 07, 2005 05:09am | #6

      Rather than just doing one pair at a time with the short technique, get yourself a bunch of different-valued resistors (100 ohms, 220, 330, 470, etc) and throw one across each of several pairs. A lot less traipsing back and forth that way.

  4. DanH | Jan 07, 2005 05:06am | #5

    You need a low-voltage tone generator, similar to what telephone folks use. I haven't seen any advertised anywhere in quite awhile, though.

  5. rasconc | Jan 07, 2005 05:23am | #7

    My dad and I installed that in the house when I was about 10, back in the late 50's.  I wore out a couple of drills.  Light bulbs last forever!  Relays are $$$ now though.

    1. KQRenovation | Jan 07, 2005 03:13pm | #8

      I have been wondering how long it will be until we dont need to run wire to switches and outlets. Just a signal from the breaker to the outlet/switch.Sure would save alot of wire fishin on remodel jobs.

      1. junkhound | Jan 07, 2005 05:47pm | #10

        There are a lot of systems on the market NOW where you don't need to run any wires to the switches.

        IMHO, it will be after I'm long dead before wireless POWER transmission is invented, so wires to the outlets will be needed for a long time. There were Popular Science (or similar mag) blurbs in the 50's about miniature nuclear reactors the size of outlet boxes that you would put anywhere and would last 100 years-definetely one of those ideas that never came to pass .

        1. HammerHarry | Jan 07, 2005 05:53pm | #11

          I like the idea of a miniature nuclear power generator, but my physics is letting me down.  Did anyone ever suggest how to generate the electricity?  Existing nuclear plants generate heat, which is used to run steam tubines.  Same concept as coal or oil fired plants, except you are using a different method to generate the heat.

          Is there  a way to get electric power directly from nuclear decay?

          1. junkhound | Jan 07, 2005 06:08pm | #12

            Nearest thing today is SiC based Peltier effect devices - stilluses heat.

      2. DanH | Jan 07, 2005 08:28pm | #14

        I think something along the lines of an X10 scheme will come along eventually, where you just wire everything to a "bus" (or maybe 2 busses, one for switches and one for loads), and then program which switches control which fixtures.Can't be too soon, from my point of view -- the existing scheme belongs with buggy whips.

  6. junkhound | Jan 07, 2005 05:40pm | #9

    I'm assuming from the original post that you just want to know which switch goes to which relay?   From your description, I Assume you have the GE RR3/RR7 type system.

    In my house or most commercial usages of the system, the non directly wired into (inductive) tone generators would be useless as there are up to 50 pairs of low voltage wires in single bundles, so nearly every wire would pickup the tone.

    I've nearly a hundred relays and a couple hundred swithces in my own house using RR#/RR7 type relays.   Alos have about 400 diodes inthe system for simple control logic. Most lights are controlled by 4 or more switches, with master switches by function, floor, inside, outside, etc.  These systems are still used commercially, and there are computer interfaces now available for control. Relays are about $25 each nowadays.

    If you  do just want to know which switch to which relay, just listen/feel  to the relay click when the switch is touched. The relays have 2 internal windings that toggle the seitch contacts between on and off.

    1. User avater
      PeterJ | Jan 07, 2005 06:35pm | #13

       I went under the house to check it out again. It's a Touch-Plate System. Wires aren't bundled. Interesting that similar systems are still being used, I can see where it would solve some problems and add flexibility. Did you install the system in your house?

      The more I think about it, I can see all sorts of advantages. Do you suppose install cost is the reason it's not used more in residential? Seems like the "home run"  nature and ease of running switch wiring would make it a viable option.

      JH, you seem to have a widely varied wealth of knowledge...if I may ask, what do you do for a living? Also, did you get a Christmas box from me? I hope my peculiar sense of humor didn't offend. PJ

      Whatever you can do or dream you can, Begin it Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.                             Goethe

      1. DanH | Jan 07, 2005 08:41pm | #15

        The two main reasons why these systems aren't used are cost and the fact that the typical sparky or HO doesn't understand them. Add to that the problem with finding spare parts after 20-30 years.The need to home-run everything is also a problem. If you want a new light somewhere you have to install a new romex back to the relay panel. It would be much better if the relay could be with the fixture/outlet a la X10. Then tapping off an existing circuit for a new fixture would be simple.Like I said, a better scheme would be more of a bus structure: Perhaps one low-voltage bus running to all the switches, and then regular AC circuits (your high-voltage "busses") running directly to outlets and fixtures, bypassing the switches. A gizmo in the breaker panel would intercept signals from the low-voltage bus and redistribute them to the AC circuits somehow (perhaps via special breakers).Of course, to be successful any scheme would have to be an "industry standard", vs just one company's wild idea. Otherwise people are going to be reluctant to buy into it, given the great expense of reverting to standard wiring if the one company drops the product.

        1. JohnSprung | Jan 07, 2005 11:37pm | #16

          > If you want a new light somewhere you have to install a new romex back to the relay panel.

          That's the beauty of EMT.  Whatever they invent, whenever they invent it, you can just pull it in.

           

          -- J.S.

           

          1. DanH | Jan 07, 2005 11:54pm | #17

            ... if there's already a conduit in place.

      2. junkhound | Jan 08, 2005 03:10am | #18

        You have a different system than I have, I think yours uses stepper relays (can't recall the name of the system) , and beleive it is obsolete. 

        In my house, I put the relays in the light fixture boxes and outlet boxes for the switched receptacles.

        I really enjoyed the 'electric hammer'. Actually so much so (I got your box before I sent mine off) that I was going to pass it on for laughs, but it helped run the shipping bill itself to over $20 so I took it back out and still have it.

        The attachment is a GE set of switches in a switchplate, some Bryant switches, a RR(generic) bryant relay, and a GE RR8 (with remote light extra terminal).  I built my house in 71-74, and my old engineering lead on the 707 program had put this system in his house and the versatility impressed me.  

        Since you asked, I'm an EE for the biggest aerospace company in the country, and day job is design and troubleshooting of power systems on aircraft, missiles, and spacecraft company wide.

        1. JohnSprung | Jan 08, 2005 04:58am | #19

          Those relays look like the ones my father used on the first house we built, in 1956. 

           

          -- J.S.

           

  7. pye | Jan 08, 2005 05:52am | #20

    Get yourself a greenlee 2011, use it a couple of times, then e-mail me, I'll make you a good offer.

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