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HELP! My father is planning on remodeling his 1930’s era cabin in Wisconsin. He is proposing to drastically alter the roof structure. He feels the need to ignore building codes, and shun any professional help. I’m looking for information on: what might happen if he does this, what are safe alternative framing options, and/or what texts might explain (to a non-carpenter) safe alternative framing options.
The details: The structure is simple, ~20’wide at the gable ends, and ~28′ long. The roof pitch is 8/12, with 2×4 rafters and joists 24″ o.c. The trusses holding up the roof are stick framed, with 2×4 (king?) posts running from the 1×4 ridge board to the center of the joists, and 1×6 (webs?) running from near either side of the king post joist intersection, to about midway on the rafters. There is one of these trusses on every other joist, i.e. the trusses are 48″ o.c.
His proposed modifications: remove the ceiling in the center 1/3 of the building, opening the room to the roof deck. REMOVE ALL THE JOISTS FROM THE CENTER 1/3. REMOVE MOST, OR ALL, OF THE TRUSSES. To compensate for this all he proposes to do is sister a second 2×4 rafter to each existing rafter.
I understand the basics of what the existing structure is doing (the joists keep the bearing walls from spreading, etc…). I’m obviously very worried about snow load, wind… Hell the weight of the roof alone could collapse it. What is the simplest safe way to open up a room, to what is now the attic, without seriously weakening the structure? Does anyone know of any pertinent literature that would be comprehensible to a non-professional?
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Bri,
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"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it."
Aristotle
*Do like Joe suggests, and if he is still not listening and wants to do it his way show him this picture and suggest he sharpen his carpentry skills by building one of these first. Its harsh, but maybe he needs the jolt.
*Whose cabin is it?
*He sounds like an adventurous type, probably pretty tough from past situations of avoiding advice.Too bad the thing is underbuilt to begin with. The only thing keeping it together right now is the truss system. Your concerns are justified if he starts removing them.MD
*he cud accomplish more of what he is trying to do if he installs a structural ridge,, like say one center post and the gable end posts supporting the appropraite sized LVL beam...the lumber yards will size it for him... he'll get more use, and it will be less work and money...good luck managing the generations....
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It is his (and my mothers of course). He got it from his parents, and I was kind of hoping it would be around long enough to pass to the next generation (my siblings and me). The infuriating part of it is that I'd enjoy nothing more than to help him remodel it... but only if we do it right! The suggestion about the LVL ridge is very helpful/promising.
*Excellent suggestion, thanks. Given his present plans we could support the beam at the 1/3 and 2/3 points, so presumably it could be smaller, and more managable, than one sized for just a center support. I've decided to hire an architect/engineer/builder (which would be appropriate?) on my own, to plan the structure right. The tricky part will be spoon feeding it to dad.
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Bri, if he's going to remove the ceiling joists then - as you know - he has to stop the roof load from spreading apart the walls. Whether you use collar ties and beefier rafters or support the ridge with a structural beam, it can be done. It sounds like he only wants to open up ~10 feet of the cabin? In the middle? He has to fill in the sides of his new opening and insulate everything. A lot of work for 10 feet of ceiling. If wants a cathedral ceiling he should open up the whole space - or most of it - with a properly supported ridge beam and new rafters/roof.
It sounds like a great project to do (correctly) with your Dad.
IMHO, jim
*Well, after he puts in the structural ridge which you and he design and size, then you can put in a cathedral ceiling at 6 on 12 pitch which will give room for insulation.. the ceiling can hang fro the structural ridge also..where does the cabin exist.... what part of the country?this is not a difficult one.. see if you have alumber yard with design services.. in exchange for a small fee and selling you the materials , a lot of good yards have this service..
*Bri,If he's dead set on a remodel, why not tear off the entire roof structure and start over. It sounds woefully underframed anyway. If you start over and rebuild the right way you'd end up with the open space he wants and possibly two sleeping lofts in either end that you didn't have before. (Hint; Tell him the lofts are needed so the grandkids have a place to stay. Even the crustiest old fart can resist something for the grandkids.) If that doesn't work, burn it down before he hurts himself.Eric
*Eric... i like that one.... still like to know where the cabin is.. terms of insulation ,, etc.. heating provisions...
*Mike, he said it was a 1930's cabin in Wisconsin....jim
*thanks jim, duh, missed that 'un..hmmm, wisconsin, uh....hmmmso , i like reinforcing the existing rafters ,, , the structural ridge,,, the loft (s),, and the lowered cathedral ceiling to provide the extra space for insulation.......i wud probly leave the roof in place and sister or other wise reinforce.. since this is a DIY project , it wud keep the contents semi-protected..8/12 pitch..... 10 ft run.... means the center is 6.67 ft higher than the plates..not a lot.. but u cud still work about a 14 inch space between the roof sheathing and the ceiling..and have two lofts.... (and that's ALL they'd be)..sounds cozy....i've always wanted to see wisconsin...
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Mike, you've summed it up well. The plan is to have the whole attic space opened, with lofts over the existing rooms in the front and rear. It's OK if there isn't a lot of head room in the lofts. They would just be for sleeping or storage. A whole roof tear off is just too major to consider. You are right about keeping the contents protected. It is currently just a summer place, no insulation, but I suppose now is the time to think about upgrading it.
Now I have to start thinking about transfering the load from the ridge correctly (there are windows and doors in each gable, under the ridge)so headers and posts are required to span these openings.
Thanks everyone for all your input. I already feel much better about this. If you have more time I have more questions:
with four posts (both gables and 1/3 and 2/3 point) I have three spans. Can I use three separate LVLs (to keep them managable) or does this call for a single beam?
How much would these LVLs weigh? Is it crane time, or can two or three guys handle it.
Anybody got any recommendations for books and/or articles that might spell out details on retrofitting a structural ridge?
Thanks again!
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HELP! My father is planning on remodeling his 1930's era cabin in Wisconsin. He is proposing to drastically alter the roof structure. He feels the need to ignore building codes, and shun any professional help. I'm looking for information on: what might happen if he does this, what are safe alternative framing options, and/or what texts might explain (to a non-carpenter) safe alternative framing options.
The details: The structure is simple, ~20'wide at the gable ends, and ~28' long. The roof pitch is 8/12, with 2x4 rafters and joists 24" o.c. The trusses holding up the roof are stick framed, with 2x4 (king?) posts running from the 1x4 ridge board to the center of the joists, and 1x6 (webs?) running from near either side of the king post joist intersection, to about midway on the rafters. There is one of these trusses on every other joist, i.e. the trusses are 48" o.c.
His proposed modifications: remove the ceiling in the center 1/3 of the building, opening the room to the roof deck. REMOVE ALL THE JOISTS FROM THE CENTER 1/3. REMOVE MOST, OR ALL, OF THE TRUSSES. To compensate for this all he proposes to do is sister a second 2x4 rafter to each existing rafter.
I understand the basics of what the existing structure is doing (the joists keep the bearing walls from spreading, etc...). I'm obviously very worried about snow load, wind... Hell the weight of the roof alone could collapse it. What is the simplest safe way to open up a room, to what is now the attic, without seriously weakening the structure? Does anyone know of any pertinent literature that would be comprehensible to a non-professional?
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yeah that... the ridge post thing