I read the article by T.H. Richards on building a divided storm sash Oct 2006. The old sash are just shy of 5/4 thick and I’m having trouble finding clear material that thickness, but the mill does have 6/4 Basswood. Will this stand up to the weather if painted?
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Bad choice. Basswood is way too softto be considered. The joints would likely fail, befor e the weather could kill it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
What would be your first choice for a material? I'm used to being able to find fir, for example, in that thickness with no problem.
Depending on your design objectives, you could always use a thicker material, too, of course. A lot of the high-quality storm sash I see is 1-3/8" thick. All you need to do is rabbet it deeper to get it to fit into the screen rabbets of the window trim.
Depending on where you are, any of the following would be good choices-
pine, fir, cypress, mahogany, Spanish cedar, white cedar, redwood. If well painted, all should hold up.
1/4 sawn material would be ideal, but not necessary
in my experience, poplar or basswood are not a good exterior woods
I gotta argue the poplar. My Exterior trim is from way back like 1850 or so, and painted. Under that paint is poplar and it is just fine.
Now I know about the difference between "Old Growth" and fresher "new" wood available, so I am not espousing that any one can just go buy a hunk and have at it, but,,,properly seasoned and painted Poplar heartwood is not fodder for bugs or rot, if it is is kept up with paint and drainage.
BTW, the cornice repairs I have done recently, I have re-used some of that old poplar that I removed from some door jambs ( that I no longer have a door in) in my house. All heart wood, and sound as the day is long. More sound than the Cypress from 1915 that it replaced.
There, off my soap box.
Would I use poplar for new storm sash? Sure. I have. It is denser than basswood ( no offense Brian..LOL).
I'd not use redwood, it is also too weak (IMO) for solid joinery that will last. And Dinosaurs article is about cope and stick joints, which are largly a glue joint only...I'd rather see a tennon for my work, but to each his/her own.
Walnut is excellent density, and rot resistant, around here it is like a weed, so that would be a considered species as well.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I seem to remember discussions here years ago about whether poplar was OK to use outside. I think people were talking about two different kinds of wood referred to as poplar. Or maybe there was two types of poplar. Some people raved about it and others thought it was awful. In my experience poplar is the one of the worse woods to use outside.I haven't had much experience with Basswood, but I thought that's what duck decoys were mostly made from, because it's easy to carve.jocobe
True.
Yellow Poplar, Tulip Poplar are some.
And then the western Aspens are similar and useless for exterior work.
And Sapwood of ANY species is gonna be a problem.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I know we've been back and forth with the poplar before.
From my experience, poplar doesn't last around here. I don't care how well its painted.
I've replaced poplar that's been outside less than 5 years; and it was primed on all sides, and well painted.
I've replace windows sills, porch newels and spindles, and other poplar trim that others installed. None of it lasted more than 10-15 years.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic.
I'm more curious than anything. I just wonder what the difference(s) are ?
I do not recall seeing any back in PA, but down in NC mtns and here, it is everywhere on old homes.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I dunno.
You guys grow tougher poplar?
I'd guess there's something in the growing conditions. Maybe we could get some kind of grant ( no, not that one) to research it. LOL
BTW, if I were to use walnut on a storm sash, I'd be afraid of telling the customer how much the job would be. Around here, walnut goes for $5-6/bd ft and up.
Jersey prices, sheesh! Weed trees, thats all they are.
I gotta make a threshold tonite , 3/4 thick x 46" long. The best hunk of walnut I have is 2x10x10..I got it for free, the guy has a whole tobacco barn filled to the gills. Cut 20 yrs ago, ADried that long. I still have a funny feeling cutting up a plank that big for such a small pc., but then I remember, there's a LOT more..LOL
Too many yrs of woking with really exotic/expensive wood to lose that feeling.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
It almost sounds like it'd be worthwhile to drive down, get a truck load of walnut, and come back home to sell it.
I wonder how much is black market black walnut is worth?
The gas prices would probably wipe out most of any profits, tho.
I just got gas today at freaking 2.95 for 87 oct. Was 2.55 yesterday.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
2.49/ gal. here today for regular
I'm more curious than anything. I just wonder what the difference(s) are ?
What are the climate differences between where you and Shep live? That's got to play a role, too, of course.
I don't think there's a whole lot of climate difference between Ky and NJ.
If anything, its probably soil conditions
Plus growing up around rednecks has gotta make ya tougher <G>
I don't think there's a whole lot of climate difference between Ky and NJ...
I wouldn't think so either, but I don't live anywhere near there, so I don't have a clue. I know here in Western WA state, we have predictable weather patterns, and statistics like rainfall and temperature can vary extremely from one zip code to the next.
Anyway, just trying to figure out why you guys have such markedly different experiences with poplar.
--"It is denser than basswood ( no offense Brian..LOL)."Now-wait-a-minute!I'm sure some people consider me rather dense. ;o)I would like to try Catalpa for storm windows. Nice to work and rot resistant...if you can find it.
How does walnut paint up?
Being diffuse porus like poplar, it paints the same.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
But what about all the oil in the walnut? I'm concerned that it will leach out and compromise the paint.
there really isn't a lot of oil in walnut lumber; it's mostly in the nuts
I just think it'd be a shame to paint up some nice walnut. But if it's plentiful and cheap, I might break down and do that.
edit to include: there is a chemical in walnut that makes it toxic to many things. I know walnut sawdust and shavings in their stalls can kill a horse, as well as plants. Never use walnut dust in compost, or as mulch. I forget what the chemical is called.
Edited 9/6/2007 1:16 pm ET by Shep
Juglans Ni-ger is the name of B.Walnut ( might be off a little, my Latin is rusty, and prospero won't allow the last part)..and I THINK the Juglans part is the chemical, it is a central nervouse system depressant in humans, you get kinda mellow or sleepy working with it.
While it will retard growth of under brush and what not, and CAN kill a horse. It is highly unlikely, it does affect the horse in other ways ( loss of appetite, lethargy, etc.) so it is avoided in stalls.
Now for a tidbit of info on Cherry. Cherry has hydrocyanic acid in it's foliage and lesser amounts in the woody cells, around here in MAJOR Horse Country, any pasture Cherry trees are either destroyed, or given a wide fence around them. A caterpiller that eats the leaves ( unaffected) poops the droppings in the grass below, horse eats grass and aborts foals prematurely, also milk is then tainted and foals suffer. So, Cherry is also not a good choice in a horse stall, the shaveings can reach toxicity when mixed with ####.
Any questions? (G)
EDIT: Some body is crazy at the helm, I cannot call PEE, U-r-i-n-e? Man, what a bunch of prudes..........
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Edited 9/6/2007 6:57 pm ET by Sphere
didn't know that about cherry
that's a wood I'd be tempted to make a road trip for
but I'd first have to figure out where to store it
There is quite a bit of Cherry here, but not near as good quality as the northern tier of Co.s in Pa, I think there and mich? or Minnesota are the leading areas for the GOOD stuff, cherry needs the colder winters, it is too mild here and south of here.
I love it too..one of my all time faves. Very versatile.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
No oil to speak of. Well DRIED walnut of course, never green. If the walnut LOOKS green ( the color), it is not dry enough.
I know some one will pipe up and contest that, but what I mean is that when you fell a walnut tree, the wood is green, and wet. It gets brown when dried.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Hey TH!!!!!
Some one has a question fer ya!!!!
Sorry I missed this thread earlier; thanks go to Jet for lighting me up.
As Sphere and Shep have mentioned, basswood isn't a good choice. The sashes you saw me making in the photos are white pine; this is very common around here for sashwork although red cedar was also common 40+ years ago before it priced itself into the luxury market.
Another good choice would be red pine; this is one of the hardest of the softwoods and is commonly cut for 2x roof decking and t&g v-joint paneling. It machines to a very nice finish but you do have to clean sanding belts often and hit your cutters with oven cleaner afterwards as red pine has a lot of resin in it.
The stock doesn't absolutely have to be clear; I used to make sashes out of #1&2 but quit that practise when I had one warp out at a knot. Now I will use select if I can't get clear and just take care to choose the boards carefully.
The sashes I made for the article were dressed to 7/8" thickness, but all the pieces were taken out of 1" rough stock, not 5/4. I just picked the fattest ones in the bin and stood there with the millhand making sure he didn't get carried away at the planer .
Yes, you could make the sashes 1³/8" thick...but you'd need a shaper instead of a router, running full-size door cutters to do the cope and stick cuts on stock that thick. Cabinet-door bit sets for routers won't work on stock over 7/8"; in fact I've never seen any router bit sets that will do cope & stick cuts on 6/4 stock.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
in fact I've never seen any router bit sets that will do cope & stick cuts on 6/4 stock.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Window-Sash-Glass-Door-RAIL-STILE-Router-Bit-Set_W0QQitemZ320154606443QQihZ011QQcategoryZ50383QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
Window Sash & Glass Door RAIL & STILE Router Bit Set
Works with stock from 7/8" to 1-1/2" thick.
View Image
Edited 9/7/2007 12:13 am ET by Ragnar17
Ha! I have that set. I was gonna go look and see the part # and post it to T.H., Thanks for saving me a trip to the router drawer.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Thanks for all the discussion on this, I'll pass on the Basswood and find a different mill.
My CMT cutters, similar to those you pictured, will do 1 3/8" as well.
I think there are several companies that make router bits that will do a 1 3/8" sash.
Contrary to what Dino says and with no dissrespect to his article in FHB I dont make any sashes for outdoor use with a cope and stick, has to be through tennon for me.
Doug
Edited 9/9/2007 11:31 am ET by DougU
Doug,
That reminds me -- I was asking you a while back about the check rails and you were going to try to dig up a photo. How did you manage to cut the joinery on the check rails without having to glue on a weatherstop afterward? (I hope my nomenclature is clear).
I never got a chance to read the article -- did Dino use dowels to secure the cope and stick?
I'm with you, though -- I think a mortise and tenon joint is well worth the effort for something that sees as much weather as a storm sash.
I sort-of remember the check rail thing, have to see if I can find a pic. Or, I can snap a pic as soon as I'm near one, which shouldnt be to difficult.
did Dino use dowels to secure the cope and stick?
If I recall correctly I dont believe anything except the stick and cope. I'd want to make sure before I went and quoted Dino but thats how I remember. I dont like that method but if it works for him thats cool, we dont have to do everything the same.
If I'm going to the trouble to make sashes or windows I'm going to make them to withstand the elements that I think they will be subject to.
Doug
I just LOVE it (insert sarcasm smiley) when a true thru M&T is also wedged in a tapered mortice, man getting them apart for repairs is a pain in the arse.
Almost as bad as a Fox wedged tennon ( which I included in a few early pcs. I made, just to drive somebody crazy if they try to get it apart (evil Grin)).
I agree anything that can rack or is subjected to wind loads, needs a good joint and good glue.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I'm in the process of rebuilding a slew of DH sash. The meeting rail is just fatter than the stiles on the Upper of the Lower sash ( fat ness to the OUTside) and rabbetd to pass the parting bead.
On these I am on, the sash is 1.25" and the parting is about 7/16" The fat rail is 1.5" .
The Upper sash has a fatness on the INside face , the same. Where the clearance is factored in, a weather strip of silcone bulb and flange closes the gap, but a fiber bristle or bronze spring could also work, Ive seen all 3 types used.
Almost all of these are really shot, condensation has killed them, I save the stiles and one of the rails( the sill rails are shot, and the meeting rail of the upper is shot) and replace the muntins and mullions. Fiddly work getting it all to actually fit cleanly and itty bitty tennons on the muntins where they intersect with the Mullions, and coped to fit..arrgghhhh.
Lucky the style is bevel edge, vs an Ogee, I can "cope" the munts with a radial arm saw and sweeten the fit with a pull saw.
Ogees almost require a cope cutter in a router or shaper, but I can do a few with a gouge if needed. More than 4 or 6, and out comes the cutters.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Edited 9/9/2007 8:19 pm ET by Sphere
Unfortunately, I'm not sophisticated enough yet in my machinery to have cope cutters! The approach I'm trying is to use a mortise and tenon, and then use a simple jack miter for the (integral) sticking.This approach works fine for casement sash, but the double-hungs give me trouble at the check rails. The reason is that I can't figure out an easy way to cut the tenon on the check rail without the end of the weatherstop getting in the way of the operation. The ends of the check rails are sort of a double-tenon, if that helps with the visualization.Any pointers?I've recently been looking at the Leigh FMT jig and wondering if it (or some other router set up) would get me through this operation.
Edited 9/10/2007 12:48 am ET by Ragnar17
Sounds like you need an offset tennon, or a loose tennon. I don't get the double tennon you spoke of, but I need coffee, and then will ponder it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"