From:
Mr T
7:58 am
To:
ALL
(1 of 1)
1509.1
I am strarting this discussion as a place to list the concerns and suggestions of the Users of this site.
Please limit your responses to “constructive advice”
We Obviously need a dialog here about what every one likes and dislikes, and what if any thing the web-miesters are
planning or are capable of.
Joes Page is of great help
I would put a link to it but I am not to clear on HTML etc.
Let me start with some of my concerns..
1. frames make the page to cluttered and make navigation more difficult
2. Some posts come up wider than the rest and I need to scroll sideways…very hard to read this way
3. The title at the top is nice for the marketing folks but we know where we are and with the current format space is at a
premium.
4. a help page would be a BIG help
I love this place and would hate to see us lose good people for the sake of some bells and whistles
Mr T
Replies
OK, I'll go first
1. Threaded discussions was easier to navigate and read/reply to
2. Posting a message in a timely manner requires me to hit- post or preview.. then stop then post. Other wise I get "Tuanton.com contacted waiting for reply" for ten minutes
Mor to come
T
agree on the need to have one central place for constructive suggestions rather than scattered through a zillion threads.
and I just noticed the issue you point out in #2, where some posts have to be scrolled sideways to read - that needs to be fixed if at all possible.
also support the lessening of clutter - I read FHB because I find things there that reflect my appreciation for design that blends elegance & functionality. the appearance of this site does not seem to fit in that category - I will withhold judgment on the overall functionality til I get used to it, but there are obviously details that could stand tweaking.
Well, I right click and open a new window, so I don't have to deal with frames. But it would be nice if the new window gave me the name of the thread in the window bar. I suppose that isn't possible...my alternative is to repeat the name of the thread at the bottom of the thread.
I do kind of miss having the first post in a thread come up every time. Here, if you don't remember what the first post said, then you've got to click to get to it.
On similar lines, at the old site, when you opened a thread most of the time the last post you read was the first post you saw. Here, it simply starts with the first unread post. I liked the old way...let's me get my bearings.
I stopped reading the threaded messages a long time ago. I much prefer this way...it is a lot quicker. All one has to do is quote what is being replied to. Usually only a sentence needs to be quoted for the post to make sense (actually, most of the posts make sense with nothing quoted at all!).
If the change is made to threaded, I hope each individual can choose which way. I just don't have the time to read threaded.
FWIW, once I started viewing everything in a new window (no frames), the clutter issue makes no sense to me. It doesn't seem cluttered at all. And once I upped the font size to 12, it is all very easy to read.
At this point my biggest complaint is this clearly makes higher demands on my computer than the old site. There I could whip open twenty windows in no time at all. Here, once the third window is open, everything just s l o w s way down.
Rich Beckman
...Do in the options button...I scroll over it all the time...one of these times i'm going to accidently report myself!!!
...Change the general screen font to one with serifs, or can I allready do that?
...Newf
Carpenter, woodworker, gardener, fool...
Here's what I've been doing to get rid of the clutter-
After I log in, I hit the list of messages on the left with my right-click to open that frame in a new window. Then I go back to the first window and close it. Now I've got a plain Jane frame listing the messages. I choose each one I want to read in the same manner, openning a nerw window for each thread. Since this new format is loading so slow and posting is so tedious, this lets me work about three threads at one time under different windows without confusing my self too much. I also need to reload the messages list occasionally to keep my eye on new posts.
Learning new tricks keeps us alive!
Excellence is its own reward!
My suggestions (so
far)
I'm in total
agreement with Rich
Beckman-----"Well, I right click and open a new window, so I don't
have to deal with frames. But it would be nice if the new window gave me
the name of the thread in the window bar"Absolutely, plus that way
if we bookmark the particular discussion we can spot it in our bookmark lists
rather than seeing "Breaktime Messages". It would be REALLY GREAT
however if when the document title attribute was dynamically generated if
it gave the Breaktime discussions a prefix like "BT-Name of the Discussion"
and "CT..." for Cooks Talk discussions and "K-..." for
Knots and "OTF-..." for Over the fence etc.
Also I think
that when you click on the icon to open attachments would be much better if
it worked like this: Click
here. Otherwise you either have to Command Click the attachment button
or use you back button to get back to the text of the discussion you were
reading. Let clicking on the attachment icon open the attachment in a new
window.
On the whole however
I think the changes here a really great and everyone will eventually see the
tremendous benefit of this new system. I think a lot of people need to grow
up step-out-of-the-boxes that they are living in. They need to realize that
this wasn't just change just for the sake of change it was change for the sake
of improvement and if the would open up their eyes and stop living in the last
century we can get on to really sharing some ideas concepts and information.
I've seen three
of the major building & remodeling sites have make changes in the last year
and I personally grade their parts according to the following criteria.
The Quality of
the Site Content (exclusive of the forums)
The Quantity of the Site Content
The Look or Appearance of the Site
The Functionality and Usability of their Forums
The Quality of the Forum Content
The Quantity of the Site Content
The
Site
The
Forums
Quality
Quantity
Look
Function
Quality
Quantity
FHB
, FWW
A
B-
A
B+
A
A
JLC
OnLine
A
A
C-
C
A-
B
Remodeling
Online
F
F
C
F
F
F
With the possible
exception of JLC Hanley-Wood management has each year shown us that just when
we thought they couldn't screw it up their sites (Remodeling & Builder)
anymore that they still had plans to make things worse.
To all the complainers
here who are saying that they'll go elsewhere I want to know just where do you
think you'll go? Aside from the fact that the changes here are improvements
this is still the best set of building & remodeling forums on the net. Period.
In another discussion her Cutting
your nose to spite your face I made mention that:
Our industry and
trades are so slow and resistant to change that maybe it's no wonder the youth
of today is ignoring this path and going elsewhere. At times I really feel like
I'm surrounded by dinosaurs.
"None of
us is as smart as all of us."- Warren
Bennis
Piffin!
That's about the best hint I've read so far! Milkbones, lots of them.
If, instead of talking to your plants, you yelled at them, would they still grow, only to be troubled and insecure?
Newf, I agree with you about the serifs. They seem easier to read and somehow... friendlier... ? Which font and size are you using? I don't think I've found it yet.
> Newf, I agree with you about the serifs.
Not moi. I use a really small font size--8--and serifs make that much harder to read. Actually what's hard to read is everyone changing font face and size every other post be/c their changes override my prefs (apparently doesn't happen on some other browser/computer combos). As if the screen isn't busy enough, all this rediscovery of fonts and colors makes this forum look like a bad high school science fair project.
Hey, Cloud, Cynthia, and Newf,
On fonts. I've always understood that there is a distinction between legible and readable fonts. I frequently came across that distinction in Robin William's (not that one) books on typography. The idea was that for long stretches of reading, a serif font flowed more smoothly. But as Cloud points out, little changes in formatting, like font size, make a difference. I've had the messages set on 9, so I took it down to eight, but I didn't see much difference in readability, for me, in the serif fonts.
So I just went hunting for William's stuff on the Web and found that she does a series of column for EyeWire, two of which I've linked to here on readability. And gasp, she points out the sans serif may be more "readable" online than serif, and sans serif is used in the body of the text of her columns.
http://www.eyewire.com/magazine/columns/robin/readability/
http://www.eyewire.com/magazine/columns/robin/readability/read2.html
Cloud makes a good point. When we all choose what font we post with, it creates more visual chaos, which is something Williams and others warn about. On the other hand, right now, I am finding the different choices to be helpful in remembering personalities. At this point in time, the default font annoys me way more than the variety of fonts, although that balance may change in the future.
Does anyone know what the default font actually is? I've been assuming Ariel, but I don't think it is. I set a paragraph in Ariel and it's not the same. Maybe it is my astigmatism, but I find the default to be uncomfortable to read. So as long as I have a choice, I posting in a serif font.
If, instead of talking to your plants, you yelled at them, would they still grow, only to be troubled and insecure?
Theo,
Thanks for the trip down memory lane--I've had her book "The Mac is not a Typewriter", PeachPit Press, since it came out in 1990. Learned a lot from it. Sounds like she hasn't lost her touch for clarity.
Yeah, I've learned a lot of stuff from her that I wished I knew long, long ago, like not putting apostrophes in decades like 80s and 90s and m and n dashes, and all kinds of mistakes I was making, to my own mortification.
If, instead of talking to your plants, you yelled at them, would they still grow, only to be troubled and insecure?
O.K....Here's my theory: your eyes get use to what they see the most, i.e. Newspapers,books,etc. These are almost always in a serif font, like Times Roman, something like it. Whatever font Webx used seemed easy on the eyes, I read it hours per day, I know, I should get a real life!
I don't like the default font, so if everybody wants to vote on a new default serif font, I pick mine!!!...<G>...
I think the default font is Papyrus Newf
Carpenter, woodworker, gardener, fool...
>I don't like the default font, so if everybody wants to vote on a new default serif font, I pick mine!!!
In all seriousness (toward Prospero, not you), it's a flawed system if I can't pick my own and you can't pick your own. In this age of customization, the thought that we'd all have to settle on the same font, fer chrissakes, is absurd. I should be able to set a pref for face, size, whatever that applies to all I see but doesn't affect your ability to see your screen your way. Unless I'm missing something, things like this are regression, not progress.
Theodora,
Thanks for the articles. What she says about readability does make sense.
I think preference in type style might be linked to personality. I saw the Extreme Homes program about Cloud's absolutely beautiful home, and I can see how he might prefer a spare typeface with no "froufrous". He would probably find my small English style cottage with its shabby-chic decor way too cluttered.
I tend to use sans serif fonts like this when I'm doing business correspondence and something more like this for personal correspondence, which would be very annoying to most readers here.
I guess this is why I find the default font annoying...although it is legible, it seems too formal and therefore, for me, is less readable. I thought it was Ariel too.
Geneva
Arial
Verdana
Times
Courier
Comic
is how my choices display.
Providing one can adjust the size, I don't have a strong online pref, but love the Book Antigua and just may switch. I can definitely identify w/clutter, unfortunately. But the serifs do, to me, soften this unthreadedness.
I read somewhere one can turn off folks' sig lines, maybe in Prefs? So much visual distration, even when in full window mode.
kai
Hi... Don't you have the"custom" button?Newf
Carpenter, woodworker, gardener, fool...
Yes, Neuf but I have to remember to use it. Maybe I can set in prefs.
Agree w/Cloud again--what I see s/b user-configurable and not affect other users.
kai / CH(Jim)
I agree with you and CH(Jim)...We should be able to set this in Prefs..... but we can't as far as I could see...
We want change!!!...And we want it NOW!!!LOL....
...<G>...Newf
Carpenter, woodworker, gardener, fool...
>He would probably find my small English style cottage with its shabby-chic decor way too cluttered.
Post a picture an' I'll let ya know!!! :) Probably wouldn't find it too anything. I love all types of houses as long as they are quality construction. What's most important about any house is that it fits the person who lives there.
Yesterday, DW, DD and I went to help a friend moving with her dau into a house pending a divorce. We helped her paint. The floor had a probably 2" roll from the middle high point to the walls, it bounced like a trampoline, the springs in the double-hungs' rattled when the washer was on. The...oh, never mind. What mattered was that she was beaming about the gurgling river, and the rhodedendron (sp), and the colors of paint she had chosen without the help of her philandering ex, and the furniture that fit her tastes, etc. That makes it a great house.
Cloud, I'm going to try to attach a photo of my little English cottage. It's well built with all brick and a slate roof, and it suits me. I'll also attach (I'll try anyway) a photo of the front garden looking from the front door to the street. The garden is really why I like this house.
Your front garden is just charming! And the scent...I can smell it all the way from California.
"A completed home is a listed home."
Cynthia,
That's storybook perfect. Absolutely charming! Looks like you're doing a good job keeping it in good shape.
Jim
Cloud, Thanks! I was just showing a friend of mine your website and the photos of your house. She was very impressed.
...Way Cool!!!...Newf
Carpenter, woodworker, gardener, fool...
Cynthia,
It's just perfect. The garden suits the house very well. Didn't you post a pic of your backyard last fall? Didn't you have some work done there on a slope, or am I remembering something different?
If, instead of talking to your plants, you yelled at them, would they still grow, only to be troubled and insecure?
Yes, I posted photos of my rock garden over on the site formerly known as "Sprout Off".
Cynthia
Hi...The font is Book Antiqua, under custom, size 3, which is too big, but 2 seems too small. But CH (Jim) doesn't like it, so I guess I'll change....Comic, in red, size7...LOL...
PeaceNewf
Carpenter, woodworker, gardener, fool...
Don't change for me Argentina! What would I whine about then? Really, newf, we loved ya just the font ya were.
Jim
...Cool!!!...Newf
Carpenter, woodworker, gardener, fool...
I liked the old way better
I just don't have the time to read threaded.
Interesting. I certainly never read all the msgs in some threads, but I could see the first line and the poster's name in the old look, and scroll past those until I saw an interesting first line/poster name. Now I have to scroll through all posts in their entirety, then click a number to see what the person said that they are talking to, unless they extract a quote, which may or may not have taken a sidetrack to the orig post.
Still, I hope they make the threaded outline view an option for those like you who don't like it. Personally, that's what I miss the most, and the chatty, interactive nature it fostered.
One of the things that I really miss is having the posters name attached to the messages list links. There are certain people whose every thread I like to read. There are others who I generally ignore. The title link is now less likely to indicate to me whether I will be wasting my time following it.
Thanks for the milkbones, My dog ate them before I could get to them though.
Excellence is its own reward!
One of the things that I really miss is having the posters name attached to the messages list links
Dead on Piffin. I opened this thread in order to say that. And thanks for your tips above. Excellent suggestions.
Piffen regarding:
"One of the things that I really miss is having the
posters name attached to the messages list links. There are certain people whose
every thread I like to read. There are others who I generally ignore. The title
link is now less likely to indicate to me whether I will be wasting my time
following it."
I just real somewhere else on the site BillP mentioning:
"If you run yer mouse over the name of the thread, the name of the poster
will appear on the bottom of the frame."
Forum hint:
Shift Click on Discussions to Open Them in
a New Window!
(It make them really easy to read just like the
old days)
"None of us
is as smart as all of us."- Warren
Bennis
I read that too but I guess it only works with MSIE. My Netscape doesn't do it
Thanks anyway...
Excellence is its own reward!
Yup I just checked it with Netcape and noticed the same thing ( or lack there of). Hey aren't you a Macintosh user?Forum hint:
Shift Click on Discussions to Open Them in
a New Window!
(It make them really easy to read just like the
old days)
"None of us
is as smart as all of us."- Warren
Bennis
I don't understand........which is not unusual......
Netscape or IE or Opera or whatever gets us here. Once here, what difference does it make as to whether or not we can use the custom font thing? I can't even find it. Right now I'm on IE4.
I'm reading this stuff..........change that to "squinting" at this stuff on a 13" screen. I'm 48 years old next week, and my eyes ain't that good to begin with.
How can I set the font size once and for all so that I don't have to customize the screen (even if I could) every time I log on?
And another thing........
Why does the opening page have to be split? Why can't it just be all the thread options listed at once? We could then go to whatever section we want to and click back to the main menu of threads when done with that section. Oh yeah, that's the way it USED to be. Forget that......it's just too easy. (I still have my caplock......they can't take that away from me.) To hell with the fancy fonts. I can get used to each posting being in it's own little frame (how cute), but this split opening page thing as default has got to go. Sure, right click, open a new page, maximize, will get you there, but what a pain to have to do it EVERY time!
Why can't they use this new technology but make it resemble the old site? If the new software is THAT advanced, it should be a piece of cake. Making it look like the old site should be easy if this software is so freaking smart.
I guess it's like a pimp. You got serviced, so forget you. Thanks Prospero.......your money is on the dresser.
Oh yeah, and all the Tauton stuff at the top? I agree. I already KNOW where I am........I made an effort to GET here didn't I? What a waste of space.
Ed.
I agree with all the responses. MY screen name used to be cutawooda but I inadvertantly did the set up wrong...now I no longer have the ambition to find out ho w to re-do it.
WHY ? WHY? WHY?????? It was so much easier before! I would scroll down the list, double click one of interest and respond. Mostly I came for information...somtimes, I provided the information. This site was meant for that purpose. It was, in a word, easy. Now it is not. It is the difference in driving a country road or downtown Houston. And using that same comparison..I avoid downtown traffic. If the purpose of this site was to become congested and to have subscribers avoid it; MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! I can only hope that whoever decided to change this for whatever reason,..will realize that there was never a need for such a drastic change. We liked it the way it was. Another metaphor. It would be like a new mayor coming to town and deciding that all the street names should be changed in a numerical manner accompanied by a letter designating that street by its location from west working east and north working south. Effecient? yes! But the result would be shear chaos.
Such is the case.
Hey cutawood, click on your own name in this post. Then click on the "My Preferences" thingy. Then change your name back to something we all recognize. For all the stuff that's awkward to do, at least that one's simple.