So, the wife and I have agreed that we need a pool. She’s tired of carting all 5 kids across town to go swimming. I don’t have concerns that it wouldn’t be used enough… they’ll be in it all day every day. And the season here (Austin TX) is long enough to warrant it. OK, so that was an easy decision… 😉
I’m considering acting as GC and possibly doing some rebar and plumbing on my own. So I’m looking for technical publications on the engineering and practical issues involved with pool construction. In any case, it can’t hurt to be knowledgeable about it, even if I do hire out the whole thing. Can someone at Breaktime recommend a source of information on the subject?
thanks
Replies
You're taking on the two least expensive tasks in building a pool. Unless it's something exotic, you can get the steel tied in a pool for only slightly more than the average Joe can buy the steel itself for. The plumbing is also pretty basic (at least under the pool), and again, the labor isn't too pricey. In both of those trades, especially in Texas and the southwest, most of the labor is done by our friends from south of the border- you're not gonna save much there.
The really costly parts of building a pool are the excavation (at least getting the hole dug to the right contours), the shotcrete or gunite shell, and the plastering. Aside from that, the other major expense is the equipment. Trust me- the big pool builders give the subs plenty of business (and therefore get discounted rates), and buy their equipment in volume. You may be thinking you're saving the pool company's OH and profit, but in the end, your savings will be very small, and you'll be left without a warranty when the shell starts to leak, the plaster discolors, or the deck heaves.
Bob
those are good points - I haven't looked into what the cost savings might be for any particular sub, and you're certainly right that you can't touch Mexican labor costs... so there may be no point in taking any tasks on, aside from skimming the leaves out of it.
That said, I'd still be interested to learn more about what's involved and to investigate into the cost as it really breaks down.
From what I've heard, pool guys around here tend to go out of business so frequently that their warranties aren't worth much.
thanks
-Gus
Gus-
I managed the construction department for a year for Sylvan Pools in Las Vegas, building over 800 pools per year. I agree that pool builders go out of business at about the same or greater rate than contractors in general. Stick with a local pro who's been around awhile, or a national company like Sylvan (now Anthony & Sylvan)- they've been buying up companies around the country in an effort to roll-up the industry, and may have an office near or in Austin.
Bob
Dumfouner,
I can't believe that gc ing you on pool could be accomplished at all, let alone cost effectively.
As to the rebar, I tied quite a bit, and having seen professional pool rebar installers, I can't believe you would consider that aspect of it. Those guys are truly specialists.
Either way, bob's right, who would want to follow behind you not to mention warranty it. Maybe you have better connections than me.
Tom
Hey dum, allow me to put this gently before the other guys tear you a new orifice.
And I'm really trying to be nice. Really.
Your question is disrespectful. And shows exceptional ignorance of the process of pool construction.
I had my pool rebuilt several years ago. Now I believe I've got my stuff together when it comes to cementitious things although I'm not in the construction business.
When it was all done, I had hired out everything but the new coping. I did that - and it took me a month to do so after work and working weekends. In total it took over six months, primarily because I held up the project with my involvement.
You ask about where to learn more about the process? My best suggestion would be to take a leave of absence from your real job and watch a friend or neighbor have their's done. You gotta watch it everyday all day long and talk with your buddy about the problems every step of the way.
My pool was only about 13,000 gallons in size, although it had three levels. No hole had to be dug and no gunite had to be shot. It did require all new equipment, wiring, gas lines, plaster, as well as consultants to provide that knowledge which you seek. It still cost me over $40 grand.
This is NOT a first time DIY job. And if you do decide to attempt it, be sure you have 2 or 3 times what you think it will cost sitting in the bank waiting to be paid out. Because even though I used these pro's, I was still surprised at the number of problems and mistakes that crept into the picture - even after a year following completion.
When I sold the house shortly after, the deal was held up due to code violations, improper wiring, fencing issues, etc. Even though I did my best to rebuild to levels exceeding expectations.
See, pools are considered extreme hazards by insurance companies, building inspectors, lenders, not to mention over 50% of the potential homebuying crowd. Accordingly, they are over-inspected and perhaps over regulated.
Currently, you have no idea of code requirements. Or insurance company requirements. Or the construction details that will make a great pool different from a POS. Maybe you have superb reading comprehensive skills as well as incredible working relationships with potential subs. But you still have no experience or idea of what you're doing.
You've got kids. Is it worth risking overlooking an apparently minor detail (like the bottom drain mechanics) to say you did the job, only to find one of your children caught in that bottom drain suction, unable to break free and over their head?
Not quite so extreme but yet possible, what if your son while fooling around, got his hose stuck in one of the side suction holes and ruined his johnson for life?
Side suction holes? Swimming pool hydraulics have evolved recently to ensure the best circulation and temperature distribution. Professionals understand these conditions and how to plumb for the best. Their education and experience becomes invaluable.
Sizing of equipment for optimal performance and efficiency practically requires and HVAC expect to properly calculate.
Overflows, automatic refillers, sanitation mechanics, backflushing, filter types and operations, electrical loads, gas line construction, not to mention simply ensuring the pool is level are critical issues.
Please. Consider the value of a professional for this. His fee/profit will probably be more than covered by his purchasing power and contacts within the pool subcontractor crowd.
From experience, I honestly cannot see any value to be found in G.C.'ing this yourself.
But if you must, at least start with your local building department to find out what their expectations are.
Back to one of my first comments. "Disrespectful" is used in context of not respecting the complexities involved in such a potentially hazardous undertaking.
If you need to be involved, do the landscaping or pavers around the pool after it is completed.
whoa there stone... come up for air. just looking for information.
disrespectful? I was attempting to combat the very ignorance I readily admit to and that you pointed out. I'm in no way ruling out a professional doing the whole thing or claiming it's an easy process.
how about I just throw money at the first pool guy I see, or better yet (heh heh), get bids from every pool guy in the state so I can soak up information that way?
seriously, I think you're reading a little too much into my post. And how bout we leave orifices and johnsons out of the discussion... :-)
I'm in no way ruling out a professional doing the whole thing or claiming it's an easy process.
So..., you still have not ruled out GC'ing it yourself either.
how about I just throw money at the first pool guy I see, or better yet (heh heh), get bids from every pool guy in the state so I can soak up information that way?
You asked and you got a serious, thought out and respectful response. so why don't you just go and throw some money at the first pool guy you see.
SamT
Here you go... a different perspective. I know nothing about the Texas pool business but the numbers mentioned are similar here.
A few years ago I was hired to determine the source of problems with a very large pool on a local estate. I knew nothing about pools but the client believed I'd be thorough. Seemed great to me to get paid getting an education. We ended up draining an 80k gallon pool, fortunately had a pond available. After closer inspection and considering options the owners decided to simply refill, but with treated water from a known source. We eliminated the hardness and the copper that both had been problems. I learned a whole lot about water treatment.
I fired the pool maintenance co. and found a new one. He and I were talking about the situation one day and I asked what the material would run for a vinyl pool, very common here, and if it was complicated to put in. Now, this guy only does maintenance, no installation, but has been around for a long time. His estimate was $1500 material for the 2 lane lap pool I had in mind. I was incredulous and asked why pools cost so much. He started in on excavation, dirt removal, etc. All the stuff I do routinely.
The final decision, under construction, was not vinyl, but concrete that I'm very familiar with, covered by tile. When I first mentioned tile he was horrified and mentioned the high cost. Then I pointed out that if you're not particular about color there's a world of obsolete tile cluttering a lot of storage rooms. I've been paying .25-.50/ft for the closeouts. Last purchase was 1500 ft.
My out-of-pocket costs for the 50', 2 lane pool won't exceed $2500 including skimmers, lights, pump, filter and plumbing. And I'll have a $50k pool. Mine's indoors as we live in a forest and want year 'round use. The cost of the room was quite a bit more. I wouldn't have done this without the advice from the pool guy, but it's not complicated.
Two prospects waiting to see how it turns out. I'll have to think some about pricing. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Do I understand correctly? You ended up spending only $2500 on pool equipment / materials, and did everything yourself. Formed walls, instead of shot, i suppose? tiled inside, with surplus tile? hard to believe it was that cheap, especially for that perimeter length. lap pool -> 4' deep?
One variable here that probably differs from your equation is the excavating - it's solid rock all the way. I don't know quantitatively what the cost premium is for that yet.
interesting data point - thanks
Rock charges are exceptionally brutal. We used to charge $125/Hr for hammer time. That was for a 3,000# hammer on a hydraulic excavator. The charge covered the excavator's time, as well as the wear and tear on the machine- the hammering destroys the pins in the excavator arm, not to mention the operator himself. I saw pools dug in stratified granite that took over 100 hours to break out.
Bob
You got it, $2500. Pools are sized by gallons. Lap pools are therefore small, if requiring a large room. Actually, I didn't pay anywhere near that much but would have if I hadn't traded a pool fill-in for the removeable hardware. If you peruse the Grainger catalog you'll find all the hardware. I bought my equipment from the pool maintenance guy, cheaper than Grainger. There's a surprisingly small amount of money involved.
My maintenance guy thought he could get me the phone number for the out-of-town shotcrete crew that does all the pools here. Didn't happen. We brain-stormed as I didn't really want a vinyl pool. My current house is 120 yds of concrete so concrete wall construction is no big deal. This guy grew up in the tile business and pointed out that only the most expensive pools are tiled. But what's that got to do with me? Laying tile, especially large expanses isn't particularly difficult. My pool, like my house, is curved.
This is a mountaintop. There's a reason the mountain is here. That's a rock down there, mostly schist with veins of quartz. One end of the pool is only 3' deep due to a harder patch of rock. My crew at the time convinced me to rent a compressor and jackhammer. That wasn't the answer. In siting the house and excavating I ran into a large hard place that caused me to move one corner 3 times one afternoon. Then I had a meeting with the head inspector about how to deal with a footing over the rock. Conclusion was to use it as a footing. Working with what you have...
Rock can be interesting, but until you know what it is you don't really have any idea how much of a challenge it is. I've got a smallish Cat loader that doesn't even have rock teeth. There are a LOT of machines out there that would do a much better job battling rock. I can't imagine anybody giving you a set price for your excavation with "solid rock". However, the hardness of it will determine your cost. Might be catastrophic, might be no big deal, but the best way to find out is to get a machine in there, start digging and see what happens. Either you get a hole or you get a small bill.
There was a thread here recently about DIY. This large cost difference is why I always DIY. Rarely come in on schedule (takes time to learn), but always with no debt. And I'm clearly getting VERY well paid (after tax) for my time. I've already been invited to bid on a monster indoor pool, declined. I don't yet feel completely comfortable in what I'm doing to take on that risk, but it is interesting.
Good luck with yours. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
that's pretty dam impressive... formed, poured, and tiled the whole thing.
For the most part, the limestone here isn't particularly high quality - you can make headway with a pick and enough beers to keep it interesting - but there's no end to it and I do think there are strata down a few feet that are harder. an excavator with a hammer on it is the way to go I think.
that's pretty dam impressive... formed, poured, and tiled the whole thing.
Thanks, but that's what you do if you don't want to go into debt and don't have the cash: figure out what will work for your particular circumstance. Shotcrete was out of my capability. I looked into it and even found a great rig in a distress sale- left it there.
I also originally had no intention of learning how to form and pour concrete. My vocation is furniture design and construction. Then I wanted a concrete house when pretty much all foundations here were block. It was only in frustration that I bought a book on formwork, a pile of plywood, hired two helpers (who knew less than me), and had at it. Wasn't fast but we got it done with my curves and arches, nobody hurt, and on budget. There wasn't any other affordable option. Pool was the same. Well was the same. Road was the same. I ended up with a substantial amount of machinery, all paid for with my initial use by not hiring the work out. Now some of it gets used occasionally to generate income. And yesterday I had 3 broken tractors. It's not always a bowl of cherries... One got repaired, one more today, and I'm tired of being greasy.
Not suggesting this is appropriate for anybody else, just worked well for me. Apparently a minority attitude.
I'd try a backhoe, with rock teeth, on your limestone first. Then maybe bring in the bigger guns. By the way, my pool excavation (for somebody else) would have cost under $500 plus hauling off of the debris.
Good luck.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
dum
Don't turn your pool into a hole to throw money into which is what you'll be doing if you try to get involved. Let the pros build it for you.
I bought a circa:1680 house here on Long Island and there was a 20x50 gunite pool out back that you couldn't even see cause there were so many weeds groing around it....no kidding and the pool was left uncovered and unused for about five years. I was told I should fill it in but I needed to see what was shakin' so I pulled out all the weeds and hired a company to clean it all out and check out all out. Cost me about a grand to have that done.
I needed new lines because the pressure was bad so "I" dug around three sides and had "them" do new lines for me and it worked fantastic.
I found a filter on line for five hundred bucks vs the nine hundred they wanted but they were cool with that.
The plumbing was NOT really the same as house plumbing and the techniques are very different for everything.
My pool is almost 20 years old and works like a trooper in spite of the neglect. I account that to knowledgable pool builders. Point being.....let them do it.
I so love my pool : )
Be wet (heh heh) andy
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Oh so well said!!!!untill the circumstances change, my answer will remain the same...
Texas is home to some of the country's finest pool builders. Do your homework, Anthony & Sylvan do a nice job, look into any pool builders in the Master Pool Builders Guild; look for builders tat design and build to Genisis Design specs. There is really no "rocket science" to this trade, more craft and art, much like any trade.
Look into your local NSPI (Natl. Pool & Spa Institute) for both referrals and as a source of both local and trade standards. There are often other local pool industry groups, you may even want to check with some local pool industry supply houses for quality builders; I know South Central Pool Supply is in TX.
You may well be able to a superb job GC'ing in your own trade, but if you don't really know the subs, you WILL get what you paid for... Also, DIY'ing a portion sounds good on the surface, but most quality pool builders carefully plan the dates/times of various subs to keep the process going smoothly for you, and if you hold them up becaues you were as little as a couple hours late getting your portion done, you may go back to the bottom of the que and your 1/2 day behind could put your job WEEKS behind.
The main key in the process is how the builder manages his subs and crews. How much spare time do you have? Who will warranty your work?
DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!!
untill the circumstances change, my answer will remain the same...
Not much to offer on pool building. Most are not concrete (shotcrete)(sp?) around here. Vinyl liner pools are much more popular.
The thing I did want to share with all is a infamous quote:
"Oh, maintaining the pool is not much work for my husband at all..."!!!!!!!!
BTW: get an automatic pool cleaner.
Matt
That's the information I was looking for. Checked out the NSPI website and intend to order the ANSI residential pool spec and workmanship standards. thanks
I hear you on the GC related concerns... no arguments here. Certainly something to be done with eyes wide open.
Rock upcharge can be BRUTAL...
Any good builder will be happy to show you pools they just built, built 5, 10 15 or 20 years ago. That's the outfit you want, and remember you are putting a major construction job in your established backyard; there will be headaches...
Luck...
untill the circumstances change, my answer will remain the same...
Maybe the new pools are different, but I grew up with a pool and I don't think it's rocket science.
It was an old pool to start with and we had problems with it until my brother put two pumps back to back in it, much larger filtration(the bigger the filter the longer the interval to backwash), and had two laborers tile the whole thing so we didn't have to plaster again.
It's not perfect, but it's still my favorite pool in the whole world.
We heard from neighbors that it was hand dug.
If only my parents would throw on the heater more often.
A year ago I moved from Az to Vermont. Just as in Texas a swimming pool in Az is almost a standard amenity.
Before I built mine I did a lot of research online and in the library. I spoke with a lot of people, homeowners and builders. I have friends who GC'd their own house and then also their pool. Not one one of them came away problem free or on time. A common thread was the plumber blaming the pool pump and filtration system company for problems and vice-versa. I'd seen enough to know that I didn't want to mess with it.
I found a licensed/bonded pool contractor who had his own business for 30 years. His price was good, cheaper than the big builders and his personalized service (service is the key) was great. I contracted this pool on May 21 right in the middle of the first heat wave and was skeptical of his 21 days to build it. It was right on time.
Here's some things that I specifically wanted.
1. Paper filter cartridge. There is no backwashing , only a once a week (in the height of the season rinse)
2. I'd heard of too many problems with in ground floor filter systems. The pop heads break off, get stuck and the springs wear out. I went with a small vac that was connected on a side port with hose. It was in the pool all the time and never in the way.
3. Aerators are the key to keeping the water cool and not getting like a bath tub.
4. The GC I used pumped shotcrete for the cement but would only apply the plaster by hand. His thinking was that too many additives had to be used to make it flow thought the pump/hose and then hardeners had to be added.
5. If you're considering a spa, through it in now. The cost is minimal compared to down the road when you try to get everyone back.
Good Luck
I din't read this whole thread so maybe someone already mentioned it. If not go to http://www.poolforum.com... this site is to pools what breaktime is to construction. Put in a pool last year and didn't know squat about how to maintain, repair, etc. Someone clued me into this site. If your question hasn't already been addressed in a previous post there are people there that will be more than willing to help you.
Goodluck,
Dan019