Just got back from a job gone bad. Lady of the house orders cabinets…we get twelve of 24 installed…hubbie comes home and flips out. He is paying for custom cabinets and won’t accept PB boxes as a premium product. I’m thinkin’–“Oh, great will I get paid for this mess.”
The cabinets are good, made to fit (no fillers), single face-frame per run, good hinges & guides, flush (door-in-frame), 5/8″ PB boxes, etc. No reasoning with this guy though.
There was a measurment problem that resulted in sinkbase 1-1/2″ off center of 36″ window (I didn’t do the measuring). I could correct the problem, with a little extra work, but that is a moot point now.
Just venting.
Replies
He sounds like a d!ck. Who ordered the cabs he or wife?
Mike
She did place the order, BUT He is a dweeb for sure (don't think he wanted her to spend money on a new kitchen). The whole thing is being handled horribly.The cabinet supplier/designer guy stands to loose the most here. I could be out a couple days labor. Don't know if it is worth fighting them over it...just bites.
sure it's worth fighting over, it's not your fault
BUT
I'd really try to work this out, Meet both of them either yourself or more likely the cab supplier needs to do this, hopefully the cabinet supplier had it spec'd to use PB for the boxes in his contract, and hopefully he/you can find a way to explain to this guy that it's all going to be ok.
As soon as I found out things were at a hault, I worked up an invoice for the "Project Manager" on this. I wanted for him to see what I had in it.This was one of the first flush door cabinet orders for the cabinet co. I had to plow mortises for 16 hinges, because the hinges were designed to fit behind the faceframe and some of the cabinet sides were flush with the frames. These are component cabinets. The manufacturer ships the faceframes, doors, box parts and hardware. The final assembly happens here in a local shop (we helped with assembly, then delivered and did 1/2 of the install).Here are a few pics:
I was under the impression they were custom made cab's by a local shop.
They look kind of like the crappy knock down cab's HD and Lowes sell.
No matter, I bet it all breaks down to how well the job was spec'd from the get go, hopefully there is a reasonable solution for all
I take PB to mean particle board.
"I went to Dunkin Donuts for breakfast, and no one there was mad at me." DustinF 06'
http://www.hay98.com/
A+
I take PB to mean particle board.
I thot it was pine boxes, or paste board, or Pitts Burg (made in china). NO wonder he was mad.
The boxes look like they are melamine. I have built commercial cabs ( mostly for hospitals) for years They can be cleaned easier than wood veneer cabs. The Melamine is a more stable and consistent product. The home owners should have done some research on the specs before ordering. Could you have used a thinner base plate for the hinges? They are sized from 3mm to 15mm.You should get paid for your work and let the HOS fight it out.Chucklive, work, build, ...better with wood
You are correct, the boxes are actually 5/8" melamine. The faceframes
are poplar with two coats of sanding primer and 3 coats of white
laquer finish.As far as the hinges are concerned--the cabinets all have
faceframes, but some of the sides of the boxes are not centered
behind the frames. They all should be centered with
1/2" of frame overhanging each side of the junction
with the cabinet side. The sides that are off-center
and flush with the frame required the mortises. Those
hinges have to fit and mount behind the frame.
Euro-hinges for frameless cabinets probably would not
work, as none of these doors overlay the boxes, they
are all inset doors bounded by the faceframes.Of 80 hinges, I had to mortise 16...using a trimming router...freehand.
Mortises turned out fine (just looked rough before I cleaned them up &
put the hinges in...just a complication on a job the DH did
not want to have done.I'll get a better idea how this will go on Monday.
I think there are two other threads going at the moment relating to problems with homeowner expectations. This one is especially troubling because it appears a deal was made with the wife and the husband was not a party to it.
By a show of hands, how many of you actually know who owns the property and sign a contract with that party before doing work? Here (and in many other places) it is incredibly easy to find out who the legal owner(s) of a property are, by looking online. I always do it and it's surprising what you find. My last client was a LLC, not the two nice folks who lived in the house. My current client is a woman and her daughter, and the daughter does not live anywhere near here. She still had to sign the contract.
In many cases, one half of a married couple can legally bind the marital community. Meaning Basswood, if he signed a contract with the woman, may have the man as part of it automatically. Depends on what state you are in.
I am emphatic that I want both parties present but it does not always happen. Of course, sometimes I meet neither of them and act through a property manager who is professional and haas authority.But about 80% of the time that I deal only with one of the couple, they turn out to be problem customers.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A buddy of mine a long way away from here was considering having siding done by a big outfit, maybe it was Sears. They would not set an appointment unless he and his wife would both be present.
My experience is similar... it is generally futile to give a proposal to half of a couple. Judging by some of the posts here, it's possible to get the job by dealing with one half, but it gets hard to collect once the other half shows up.
In the Sears case they wanted both parties present so they could play them against each other. Plus they know if they only sell to one party they likely can't get a signature that night and there's too much chance of the customers talking to someone else before signing time and discovering what a ripoff Sears is.
(They play husband/wife against each other by having wife pick out styles/colors before price is discussed, and by intimidating hubby with techno-babble that he's afraid to admit he doesn't understand.)
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
You could be entirely right about that, but if it's that sinister why wouldn't they just sign with Mrs.?
Because the Mrs will rarely sign immediately for a big job unless hubby is there too -- she'll say she needs to talks it over. They'll use a tactic to convince each that the other is ready to go, so neither will object as they're led down the garden path.You know the pitch -- they keep working on you -- what color do you want, etc -- and get it all worked out like they're believing you've already agreed to buy. So you're ashamed to say no when it comes time to sign.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
You've persuaded me to never call Sears for siding. Apparently they sell a vacuum cleaner + tool switch there, so I do need to make a trip.
You know the pitch -- they keep working on you -
Our parents had warned us of this. So, just after we were married and bought our first house (mid '60s), we got a ton of solicitations on the phone and in the mail.
Made a deliberate decision to learn all the tactics for defense. Musta had 5 siding, 10 roofing, 25 vacuum cleaner salesmen, 3 HVAC companies, etc. contact us to give 'free' estimates.
We agreed beforehand with each other we would buy nothing, and for a few months had 1 or 2 sales pitches in the house every week for all the above and then some. Learned quite a few things and saw some 'high pressure' tactics that after the first few we had to supress out giggles and guffaffs.
Highlight was I'd bought (for 85 cents!) a small vacuum cleaner at a thrift store and after repairing it was surprised how good it worked. A few weeks later, one of the scheduled "training" sales calls tried to sell us the same vac for $185 (1966 remember)!!! One of the pitch queries was 'do you have a vac, how many, which type, etc.' Poor guy had to call his office to not finish the entire pitch when he saw we already had one. Never did tell him how much I'd paid, let him think another salesman had found a 'fish' before he did/
Became dedicated DIY after those sales calls.
When we "inspected" our house prior to closing, there was 1 pc of furniture in the entire house, near the front door, on the off white carpeting. After closing the furniture pc was gone leaving a black foot print. About 1 month later Kirby salesman stopped by and the kids worked on that footprint for 2 hours and got it GONE! Momma says thank you very much, it is time to put the kids to bed, good night salesman and showed them out the door.Alls well that ends well.
"They play husband/wife against each other by having wife pick out styles/colors before price is discussed, and by intimidating hubby with techno-babble that he's afraid to admit he doesn't understand.)"I've actually met a lot of customers who go through this experience with many remodelers/builders. It enhances my ability to sell myself as the honest, down to earth person. If only the a#*$&*holes knew how easy they make my work!
Yeah, that "honest, down-to-earth person" approach is the sneakiest one of all. ;)(Actually, it's something that most of the low-lifes aspire to, but only a few can pull it off. My no-good younger brother shoulda been a siding salesman -- he's great at that.)
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I read that in my post when I hit 'post'. I was being honest as that's how I am, which isn't always the best thing.My ex-husband did much better, he played the role while stealing everyone blind. He came off warm but was as cold as a stone.My problem is I get all personally wrapped up in people and have to work at not getting taken by the customer, which has happened more than once and probably will again.
"My problem is I get all personally wrapped up in people and have to work at not getting taken by the customer, which has happened more than once and probably will again."
That was my dad. A lawyer no less. But it was amazing how many "just folks" showed up for his funeral, saying he'd helped them when they were in a tight spot.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Edited 9/13/2006 6:08 am by DanH
But about 80% of the time that I deal only with one of the couple, they turn out to be problem customers.
This doesn't just apply to the building trade...in my field (real estate) I find that if someone wants an appointment for a market analysis, but only one of them is going to be there, it's generally not worth my time to do it.
Either both members of the couple aren't on the same page (like you've encountered, and they're gonna be a PITA), or they're using me for market data they're too lazy to compile themselves.
Jason
80% of your customers are problem customers???
And you don't drink???
Man you ARE a saint...
must be the Moxie..."The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character."
read some of his posts later in the evening on fridays.
piffin drinks ;)
I quit entirely for about three weeks, then had three at the fest, and one since I've been home.New meds - they don't mix well with it, and I realy don't have any desirte anymore.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was just screwing with you.
Meds for the Lyme?
and other associated symptomsEver hear of Irritable Bowel Syndrome?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
TMI...
TMI...
TMI!!!"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character."
"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character."
heard of it, know someone that had it, definetly don't want it.
Man you're having some #### luck lately.
get well soon
U gotta work on your reading skills.80% of the ones where I can't get both together for an appointment turn out bad
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey I know what you typed!!!
Lay off the Moxie and 151 !!!
"Honestly honey they started selling Moxie in hip flasks"
"no you can't have a taste"
:)"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character."
There's a sign I saw in a tile store that says:
"We will not sell tile to any husband without his wife's permission." ;-)
-- J.S.
Our paint store has a similiar sign
"No man can pick a color with out a signed note from his wife"
Local paint store says "We will not mix custom colors without a note from your wife."
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
"By a show of hands, how many of you actually know who owns the property and sign a contract with that party before doing work? Here (and in many other places) it is incredibly easy to find out who the legal owner(s) of a property are, by looking online."Not exactly. But in most cases it is a reasonable approximation.You really need to have a title search done to actually find who owns the property.
I can seen the home owner side. with everything going to china and the walmart particle board furniture that falls apart when get wet. he might just not be educated in the new stuff. I myself is not educated and that why I have no kitcern cabinet. If you going pay the big price you want the good stuff. Like Lowes and HD. a typical kitcern is 5k - 10k and its particle board.
brownbag, "I can seen the home owner side"Why did the HO aprove of the cabs without checking the specs? If a designer was involved, the designer should have provided the HO with all of the information needed to make a decision.I think BASSWOOD is trying to get paid for his work.Chucklive, work, build, ...better with wood
I can check the county's property record online, which lists the legal owners and also gives me access to .pdf versions of all documents recorded since about 1997... deeds, quitclaims, liens, etc.
> I can check the county's property record online, ....
Same here, only last time I checked, they were over 13 months behind in entering sales data.
-- J.S.
Hmmmm... here it seems to be almost immediate. They record the deed, it shows online.
My contract, excerpted from and developed using one from the JLC "Contractors Legal Kit" as a template, has a clause in which the owners agree that either, acting separately from the other, has full authorization for signoffs and approvals of things such as change orders, product selections, and submittals.
I'll bet that Mr. Mad in this case has no idea whatsoever how much particleboard exists in his life today.
That's an appropriate clause, as long as you have both parties sign the document in the first place. In a community property state it may not be necessary if they are husband and wife. What we hear about on BT quite often is a deal made with one spouse that the other either isn't aware of, or doesn't agree with.
The biggest job I ever ran was with for a man and his new wife. He controlled the money, and it was his house for 30 years before she came along. However, she was the one running the remodel. Many nasty meetings on that one, her crying, him saying no more $$, etc.
It depends on how you word your contract. If in fact, you include language meaning that the signor is the payor and responsible party, then that's that. Either way, you gotta go to court on an issue like this and I don't think a lot of judges would be too sympathetic with someone who was using a marital contract issue to dodge paying for work or product received and agreed to.I just talked to electrician about this very thing recently, who told me he did a lot of work for an elderly couple, the man signed the contract. During the course of the work, I guess he got sick, payment late, then he finally died. When elect. went to get paid, woman said, "Sorry, husband's dead, i don't owe you anything." Took her to court. She got the house and is enjoying electrician's service, she had to pay up.
I can't help you with the legalities because there's too much we don't know but I can assure you that there exists a combination of hinges and faceplates that would have eliminated the need to mortise in those hinges. What a nightmare.
When I give customers a proposal for cabinets I always spell out the material used for exteriors, interiors, drawboxes, hardware, and finishes. When I can I show them a working kitchen with the parts I intend to use. I don't want any surprises like what's happening to you. Hopefully the cabinet company, or someone, did that.
Another bit of advice: don't refer to melamine cabinets as particle board (p.b.). You even had us confused. Particle board cores are getting more common as the quality of core veneers drops. I recommend melamine kitchen and bathroom cabinets to all my customers for the reasons given by another poster, and I use p.b. core plywood more often than not because the veneers are smooth, high quality, and void free, and the sheets stay flat. Many people still have a prejudice against particle board, some of it deserved, but those cabinets you were installing are as sound as any made of plywood.
Good luck with the current situation. Even though you appear to have done nothing wrong you may lose some money, just the same. Sometimes that happens.
no PB is Peanut butter...
he's makin a Sammich...
while the smoke clears..."The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character."
They are a nice product. I've worked with plenty of Mills Pride and their ilk. I also installed dozens of Kraftmaid, Merrilat, American Woodmark, Thomasville, and on and on...these are much nicer than any of those.As I said each run had a single, custom face-frame--no fillers--made to fit. If you look at the assembly pic, what appear to be cabinets ganged together are single, huge, units.Final assembly, and staining and finishing are local.Here is another kitchen from this company I worked on with cherry cabs
What's the name of the company that makes them?
Good luck with the situation, If I were you, I'd make damn sure I was paid though.
You might actually want to try this company sometime:http://www.cabinetcomponents.com/I e-mailed my invoice for the job this afternoon. I do want the money!
I think the only door shown looks like shid .
cabflushdoors.jpg
I dont blame him over the cabinets either .
But the door , if the rest are like that one? Gttum the F outta my house . Thats disgusting.
Tim Memphest 2006
November 18th
You should see the doors after the painter put two coats of sanding primer and 3 coats of white lacquer finish on them...very nice. I'll post a pic of the finished product if I get a chance...not sure if I'll be back in there.
Ahh , so thats not the finished cabs . Im sure they do look nice.
Tim Memphest 2006
November 18th
any updates?
Cabinet designer/supplier had his lawyer review the contract as it relates to this botched job and is confident that he would win in small claims court, if it were to come to that. He is offering to remove them, but no refund, other than what they can be resold for (25% of retail maybe). He has good documentation and showed the customers another kitchen with out countertops on yet, where the construction and materials used in these cabinets was clearly shown.I stopped in the cabinet designers office and got 1/2 of the money for this job this morning. I am sure I will get the rest now (it helps that I just sold another kitchen for him yesterday). I won't place that order until I get the rest of the money for this one. You gotta have leverage.Thanks for asking.I've been slow getting back to post here.All's well that ends with a paycheck.
Sounds like it will work out well on your end.
Let us know it all finally plays out.
good luck
I've been back installing the rest of the cabinets. Here is a pic of what appears to be eight cabinets, but is one unit...that was a heavy mutha.Will go back on Monday to install solid surface tops (Visioneer) and crown and toekick.Owners seem to have mellowed out. Still an awkward job (will be glad to finish).
That does look like one heavy mother.
Nice to meet you & Corey last month at the show; give me a call if ya get over to the west a bit.
Mike
BW, it looks like it will work out for you, and personally I am very glad for that. Monday I wrote a check for $2800.00. I went to small claims court and lost...I got to speak all of five minutes before the judge said "Sit down". I was dumb enough to think I had won.
I really am not in the mood to discuss what went wrong, trying to convince myself it was just "tution", not sure I have yet.
Bottom line: stay out of JP courts in Texas. I was not even allowed to enter my material costs.
john
Were you the plaintiff or defendant? SCC usually favors the plaintiff.
What happened?
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
IT really won't help anyone to hear about it and I'm still really...shall we just say steamed. Maybe at a later date if I can see someone else benefitting. I had some signals that the client was very difficult to please and should have walked away early.
A lot of hours, material costs and the judgement. And I get to pay court costs...got that bill today.
Sure did need to buy a new SCMS.
john
PS: I was the defendant.
Ouch.
Gotta be better tomorrow View Image
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin Laminate is just a picture of hardwood printed on countertop for your floor.We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
All's well that ends...in a paycheck.
CAGIV and ALL,Took some pics today of the finally, almost completed job...the only loose ends are due to HO last minute decisions (missing doors are at the glass shop & I made a valence that will go over the sink--but the painter has it).I ended up being paid in full, for my work on the cabinets. The HOs even hired me directly to install the solid surface counters (which was just fine with the GC). I was a bit wary of doing the countertops...but they had no lingering problem with me (they still aren't real happy with the GC & cab co...oh well).My countertop quote was sorta high, but they went with it and paid immediately. To say I am glad to have this one behind me is...rather understated!
I'd say it looks like a nice kitchen, I like the detail of the cab's going to the ceiling with smaller cabs above the larger.
Personally I think I would have carried that through over the refer.
All's well that end's well.
We are still waiting for our meeting with the plumbing board to get a variance on our screw up....send some of that good luck this way would Cya?
I followed your "Stats thread"...funny one. I musta missed your mention of the plumbing mistake. What happened there?BTW, I wonder about the refer wall cabs on that kitchen too...glad you like the overall result. Nice when a PITA job at least ends well.
well I'm back live in class tonight!
the toilet problem was not having 24" per code in front of the stool. It was missed until final inspect so we're trying to get a variance....
there is a thread in the general thread somewhere but that's the gist.
--"well I'm back live in class tonight!"What's the chance of that? ; )
pretty good on a monday night!
unless the batteries die again
Nice job. Will you restate the name of the suppliers for the carcases, faceframes, and doors and drawerfronts?
Also, please describe the functions of the two little skinny doors near the corners, to the L and R of the sink run.
One more. Is that a Fisher and Paykel dishdrawer unit I am seeing?
Gene,Here is the supplier:http://www.cabinetcomponents.com/I know they ship throughout Minnesota...I do not know if they ship to NE (I would hope so).Edit to add this from their website: "we offer delivery on our trucks in specific areas of Minnesota and can arrange delivery to any other parts of the country via common carrier." Some upscale cabinet companies here order this stuff, assemble it, and rebrand it as their own.The skinny doors are for cookie sheets, etc. The really skinny one is hard to open (not enough leverage...so not the best idea (need weaker hinges).I'll check on the dishdrawer unit next week (I all but ignored the appliances).
Edited 10/23/2006 8:12 pm ET by basswood
(not enough leverage...so not the best idea (need weaker hinges).
Pop one of the springs on the euro hinge(if thats what you have) or replace one of the hinges with a free swing hinge.
BTW, nice job, I like the whole look!
Doug
Thanks for the tip.The style does fit the vintage of the home IMO. Glad you like it.
Good Job Basswood. I know this project had some testing moments.Good pics too.Chuck S.live, work, build, ...better with wood
Thanks. It was a wild ride.BTW you & Glenaspen were correct about different baseplates for the hinges eliminating the need for the mortising...too bad I didn't know about that before (good to know for the future though). Good to get advice and input here.
I got the hinges without springs and put them in this week...nice.Also, the drawer fronts only have a 1/16" clearance all the way around...with a drawer full of silverware, they started rubbing the bottom of the opening and had to be adjusted up.I noticed that the house is drafty and the furnace runs hard to keep up...hot at the ceiling and cold at the floor. Now I'm wondering how much things will move this heating season. Not much tolerance for wood changing shape and size with these...I bet we will be back to adjust things again.
Anyways, I put in the valance I custom made for the job (fashioned on-site with a jigsaw, belt & orbital sanders). The pendant acorn thingies were salvaged off an old valance and reused.The doors for the cabinets on the sides of the valance were back from the glass shop, so I hung & adjusted those doors...so the job is now finished...again. <g>
Looks good but why only the 1/16th revel, we always go with 3/32, which I thought was the norm for flush mount door/drawers.
1/16th seams like it will always give you fits but...........
Doug
Man, I'm with you. Were it up to me, there would be an 1/8" all the way around. I like some slop when it comes to such things.
Who hired you to do the install? Since you didn't take measurements, or order the cabinets, you shouldn't have to eat anything. This fight is between the hubby and his wife and/or the designer, cabinet company,...........whomever. Whoever hired you to do the installation owes you for what you've done - and maybe a few more hours to remove what you've installed - if they really gotta go.
Go pick up your tools and tell them to call you when the smoke clears - lol.
I've got to agree with the hubby that from here at least, they don't look like especially great cabinets, but you are totally right that basswood should back out and let the sales/designer deal with that problem.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I had a job like that happen two years ago. A woman has me out to price the job. I deliver the quote and she accepts. We begin work. We are twwo days into our four day job. She is out and this guy drives in and says our price is too high and he is not paying it. Thats excellent I say and you are who?
Turns out it was the husband. He wanted to do the work himself and he was not happy. Things got heated and we left.
Had to lein the property.This guy was not even going to pay for the time and materials we had used.
We got 75% of the total quote in the end. Wish I could have saved the time and aggravation.
My old motto..at least to others in the business is :
Business would be simple without customers!
Jon
I'm a little confused. Is it the Particle board he didn't like? You say the cabinets are made to fit. Isn't that the same as custom?
"I went to Dunkin Donuts for breakfast, and no one there was mad at me." DustinF 06'
http://www.hay98.com/
Custom cabinets, made to order--in exact dimensions, but shipped flat...final assembly and stain/finish done locally. Kinda cool really.
Edited 9/9/2006 8:36 pm ET by basswood
From what you've told us, it doesn't sound like you're in the wrong at all, so therefore you should be paid for your time. And then paid again to remove the ones they don't like and paid again to put in the ones dh likes.
jt8
"Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success." --Albert Schweitzer