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I’ve only been coming here for six months. If you judge the internet by the crap that goes on here you are going to have a very warped perception!
This place used to be an informative forum, now it’s just a gab session for a handfull of regulars. What used to be a new topic is now just an oppurtunity for a bunch of jackals to argue over a new bone.
Out of 50 posts to a topic only a few contain any real information, the rest are you guys puffing out your chests and blabbing about something other than the topic.
I posted a simple question and apparently you could’nt find any good points to argue with each other over, I got only a couple responses and a few follow-up questions that no one here bothered to answer.
If I saw you clowns on a construction site I would’nt come over and ask a question, you’d be too busy punching each others arms and bickering over what beer is the best.
No, the internet is much more than this place has become of late, you’re losing regulars like me because of the contention, the arguing and downright nastiness of this place. I don’t want to wade through 48 posts of bickering to find one or two gems of information. It ain’t worth it!
I came in under a different name because I have to deal with a few of you and as vindictive as some of you have become I chose not to reveal my name.
This issue is an issue! Deal with it and get back to deseminating information rather than acting like a bunch of hyenas fighting over a bone!
Your beloved Headmaster.
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I've only been coming here for six months. If you judge the internet by the crap that goes on here you are going to have a very warped perception!
This place used to be an informative forum, now it's just a gab session for a handfull of regulars. What used to be a new topic is now just an oppurtunity for a bunch of jackals to argue over a new bone.
Out of 50 posts to a topic only a few contain any real information, the rest are you guys puffing out your chests and blabbing about something other than the topic.
I posted a simple question and apparently you could'nt find any good points to argue with each other over, I got only a couple responses and a few follow-up questions that no one here bothered to answer.
If I saw you clowns on a construction site I would'nt come over and ask a question, you'd be too busy punching each others arms and bickering over what beer is the best.
No, the internet is much more than this place has become of late, you're losing regulars like me because of the contention, the arguing and downright nastiness of this place. I don't want to wade through 48 posts of bickering to find one or two gems of information. It ain't worth it!
I came in under a different name because I have to deal with a few of you and as vindictive as some of you have become I chose not to reveal my name.
This issue is an issue! Deal with it and get back to deseminating information rather than acting like a bunch of hyenas fighting over a bone!
Your beloved Headmaster.
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Hey Headmaster,
It's free advice..beggars can't be choosers. What makes you think that we all have nothing better to do than think business only for 24/7? I enjoy it here as do most of the others. We're a bunch of guys .... and gals coming here to shoot the breeze on whatever floats our boats for the time being. If all you want is advice then buy a book, you cheapskate. We are nice enough to give advice for free, spending our time doling it out to those who need it. In reality we shouldn't be giving advice to anyone. We are giving up our trade secrets and knowledge for free and reducing the marketplace for our services by doing so. There is a pretty good group of guys here from where I am sitting. If you don't like it here why are you still here? You must be one of those who takes the advice but can't give any.
I think we just had a discussion here about people like you with no balls to use your real name. I always figured if I have something to say, i'm gonna stand behind it. So be accountable.
Pete Draganic
*Headmaster,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*There is a lot of crap here but that will always be the case anywhere there is a basically anonymous and uncensored discussion. I believe that the good here outweighs the bad and I have learned quite a bit here. One thing that I believe would improve this board greatly would be more participation from those that I am sure are out there but just never get involved. Of course no one has to get involved or answer questions if they dont want to but I believe that you will get more out of a situation if you put more into it. As far as the rest of the internet I have found many products that I didnt even know existed just by searching the internet. It has made my job easier and given me more quality materials to work with.
*This site has been a great help to me over the past year or so. Most educational experiences seem to contain a great deal of wasted time and effort; but, on the whole are very worthwhile. How many times have you bought a book for one idea? I have piles of them in my offices, and even in WI which is not finished yet. If you watch long enough, you even notice that we are becoming more civilized (though I hope that does't get carried to exteremes) as some of us, myself being one, find that maybe some of the ideas we were so sure of need a bit of work. More pictures would be nice - and I intend to post mine not as an example of great work, but of a work in progress. As an aside, it is interesting to note that many of us seem to be artists at heart and sometimes musicians. As such, we are not always the easiest to be around, but at least we are not boring.Dennis
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Well, First of all, I've shared a great deal of advise and information here. I'm not just a taker as Pete suggests. The concept of trade secrets is abhorrent to me and one who won't share info freely is scared of others doing it better.
Joe, thanks for acknowleging a problem.
Perhaps a solution would be to have a place for casual gabbing. I'm not talking about the discussions relevant to the topic as the problem here. C'mon, wer'e all skinning cats here and discussions can be productive. I'd just like to see more tolerance and far less nastiness.
Fred, as far as my post, yes, the opportunity is gone, I did not get the info I was seeking and it was not in the way it was phrased, I've done this before and I know how it's done.
Let's just put out the flames and share information and have a good time doing it.
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Headmaster,
Joseph Fusco
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*jjmcgough,I really don't think that the internet is hype. I've found a ton of great information here that I would never have access to right here in my own home. I don't think that "breaktime" was ever meant to change the face of the construction industy, but we can all throw our two cents in for whatever that's worth.Headmaster,I am new to breaktime and to the internet. I have only been "online" for about two months now. I have no idea how it "was", and I don't really care. Things change. I haven't been around to see how this place changed, but as it changes, I hope I change too. I don't want things to stay the same. It's called evolution. It's a good thing.One day I too may find some other way to help out other than this forum. When that day comes I will sign off and have positive memories of what transpired here. When that day comes, I won't be shy, and I won't bitch about the way things have become, I will just say my goodbyes and go. No regrets. But I'll quote youngbob again that "you can learn more from someone you disagree with....."My spelling and syntac may not be the best in the world, but I mean well. If you must go, go. Just don't waste my time telling me about it.God, I hope this ain't another shagging on the Headmaster....what do you think Pete?If they suck me in again, I'm gonna be pissed.Ed. WilliamsGreat American Carpentry Co.Dallas, Texas
*Well. I don't really see the need to answer this query, but i think I will anyways.First, like a good american, I'll answer with a question.If you don't want to visit a site that invloves people discussing things, why are you tapping in and reading?Just use your ultimate censoring tool, and shut your monitor off!I for one, am very happy to learn the things that I learn, from reading other's posts. I already know a great deal about framing houses, but don't know diddly squat about a thousand other topics in the building trades. I'm eternally thankful that I can peruse through a true tradesman's head, and glean tidbits.I don't kid myself about finding a gem in every topic, and understand that disagreements abound. That is the nature of discussions!I have only been tuned into this site for the past half year, and don't actually know who is fighting whom! I know that several have different opinions, and some have radical ideas, but so what?! Would you rather have a box of crayons that were all white, or the normal box of 24 colors?I'll take the 24 colors, and pick and choose the ones that I like.You actually sound like a teenager, complaining that your question wasn't answered. Stop your temper tantrum, and post it again, in a different way! Word it different, or ask why it wan't answered. Be persistent. Act like a tradesman!I'm all for the useless banter. It basically ends the topic, and the topic is usually already hashed over pretty good. Everything can't be so serious, especially in a cyber forum, that there is no time for a little foolishness. Now take a pill, and lighten up Jack! (ED NOTE: how did blue know it was AJ?)Did your stream dry up in the heat of the summer?blue
*I came here to follow the questions and responses related to homebuilding.Before long, I presented a problem to the forum, and was richly rewarded with meaningful advice which led to a successful project and a satisfied client.Soon, I offered some advice and/or encouragement to others, and felt I had been of service to them.Eventually, I posted a couple of humorous but benign comments.When I encountered flaming flare-ups, I stood clear, observing without comment the merits of each party's position. A lot of this incendiary activity had nothing to do with construction.These days, I find myself wishing we had separate folder for "non-construction matters". (Sean, are you reading this?) I'll confess I find myself drawn to postings and replies which deal with such matters, but sometimes end up spending lots of time viewing pictures of kids (no offense, Pete ... if I knew how, I'd post some photos of my Grandchildren, and hopefully you'll recall my compliments on your offspring), following arguments not related to building, and savoring beetroot and onion sandwiches. With a separate folder I (you, we) could stick to construction, or browse through non-related matters in a separate location where personnal issues could be aired.
*jjmcgough: Does the internet affect how the average house is built? Not much at all. Not in the way the internet has affected professionals who can now work at home, airline reservations, book selling, and mail order. But then unionization, de-unionization, mass production, assembly lines, gender integration, and electronics have not affected residential construction as much as other areas of life nor as much as it could. Buckminister Fuller tried to create modular bathrooms to reduce housing expenses in the most $/ft2 part of the house, but the tradesmen wouldn't connect them. Can you imagine ordering a car and having a bunch of guys show up in your driveway with lathes, anvils, forges, and presses and construct you a new Camry from sheet metal, bar stock and copper wire?So a few of us get information and laughs, order books and a few tools over the internet but houses are being built in the same way they've always been built. Mostly because it is all done on such a small scale. If Gabe and Fred worked at Ford, their arguments would get put through the wringer first. And then the promising ideas would get built in prototype and tested. In the wind tunnel. On the track. With crash-test dummies inside. Some ideas would be proven. Others would be disproved. And then and only then, would millions of cars get built incorporating the new ideas. A few bad ideas would get through, but only a few and they wouldn't kill too many people.Even when someone does a prototype house and has proven something, builders don't hold themselves to the standards that they would like their doctors, lawyers, and engineers to maintain. (e.g. stay abreast of developments in your field, be objective, act in the best interest of your client, and (especially) know your limits and stay within your field of expertise). I know I read more to keep up on engineering than most builders do to keep up with building. I'm glad my doctor does more reading and conferences than I do.Talking Head: You're complaining about people going off-topic when the topic was whether the internet is hype or not, as it relates to the construction industry. The topic was not whether you got your last question answered, for free, to your satisfaction. Go over to http://www.plbg.com. Horribly inefficient BBS set-up, but straight forward questions get straight forward answers. There is a very high content/fluff ratio, not many arguments, but no sense of community. You also have to undo your belt two notches so you'll fit in :). Continuing off-topic about going off-topic. I actually got flamed by email by Donald J. Lee, cabinetmaker, at [email protected]. And I quote, "What does ER got to do with building shows. The latter is suppose to be teach a craft to everyone. ER is entertainment. Plus we all know that no doctor will help anyone unless they have insurance. So what was you point?" As if his post ("Do how-to shows make remodeling/building look to easy?") wasn't pretty fluffy to begin with. Donald: There are 26 doctors in my area. Only 2 refuse Medicare patients. About 30% of my wife's patients don't have insurance although most try to pay their bills. About 10% of her bills never get paid. And she doesn't stop seeing people when they can't pay. If you did two cabinet jobs for a customer who hadn't paid and was unlikely to ever pay, would you do a few more cabinet jobs for him? Cause he needed you to? Then shut up about whether doctors do enough pro-bono work. Or go to medical school and YOU work for free. I've got friends in Zimbabwe doctoring for $500/month because it's where they feel their skills are most needed. Maybe you could go build them some cabinets.Non-anonymously, David Thomas
*First Honorable Mention "Woodshed Award" to Mr. Thomas. I could hear the whack over "Dateline"!Trois un Coup!
*This forum has been great for me. It is an opportunity to ask a question of people who've been there -- and they only have to answer if they have the time. The debates about the issues often bring out a bit more. And i don't mind the chatter -- it's usually obvious when a thread has died out, or is silly altogether, so you can choose whether to follow.This is one of the first valuable things I've found on the Internet that's not posted by some company. Information is worthless without real content. Generally the companies are the only ones with enough money to provide content -- and self-serving content at that.But fora like this -- when they manage to attract and retain people who have important things to say -- provide an alternative. Maybe when the next EIFS disaster rolls around a forum like this will cut it short as people around the country (world) compare notes. I am impressed by how smart and committed the core participants are, not just to their craft but to the board as well. The nuisances, and in 9 mos. I've seen quite a few, tend to die away for lack of fuel. It's boring to fight without an opponent.Yeah, the media is driven by hype (and increasingly by commercialism), always needing an "angle" for there to be a story, and I hate the metaphor "information superhighway." Their fault in this case is the prematurity of the cheerleading. I wonder how many of these journalists could find their way as far as Yahoo! Yet folks sense that this is something important without knowing its scope -- look at the stock market -- and I believe history will view the Internet as revolutionary. For the first time in history, the individual has independence from the corporations and government: he or she can find out things in their unvarnished essence from wherever they are.In time, more and more quality sources of information will coalesce. Patience.
*The internet is what you make of it. There's such an amazing amount of info out there, all you need is a few decent search engines to cull through the fodder to get the info you are looking for. While there are gigabites of garbage, there are so many decent places to go as well. I'd be hard pressed to not be able to answer a question doing reseach on the net. In my town's smallish library, I wouldn't have half a chance as the majority of the books there are a bit out of date.For Headmaster:I take this place for what it's worth...on occasion I glean some great tips, on occasion I come up dry, on occasion I ditch the board and don't log on for several days, on occasion I log on several times per day.Honsetly, and with rare exception, the only questions that don't seem to get much feedback are questions that are quite vague, too general in nature, or so poorly worded that it's tough to understand what specifically is being asked. On occasion some posts may not have much to do with FHB and may get a better response on "Knots." As far as anonymity, it's unfortunate you feel threatened by the personalities on this board. If you can't face an occasional unruly person on the other end of a computer, how can you do it in real life? Not a slam, just encouragement to not be shy. I'd recommend you go back, review your original question and try reposting it. There's too much talent here to give up so easily.Good luck.
*Mongo, try TERAbytes of junk.The Internet is being created with asignificant part of the productivity gains that have permitted the unprecedented low unemployment, high growth, low inflation economy of the last few years:[Commerce Dept] Study Lauds Technology's BenefitsWhen the next recession hits, the wheat will be culled from the chaff PDQ. Just hope we don't get stuck with the chaff (e.g., Microsoft). That is, there are factors in business success besides efficiency. The Internet will be a strong force for generic shared standards that prevent concentrations of power in proprietary systems. Kinda like one size fits all, but can be tailored.
*I would like to see a site where posters don't use ANY names. That way, the idea(s) presented would have to stand on their own merit, without regard for who said them. - jb
*Yes,but at least you use your real name Joe.Often amused,Stephen
*If you ever bother to read the message from Sean when you log on here,he pretty clearly spells out that this forum is meant to be an cyberspace version of a construction lunch break.(For those of you who still have time for lunches).Now when you eat lunch on the job with the guys (or gals) What do you talk about?I will bet dollars to donuts that your conversation is not strictly limited to work related topics.In fact probably the majority of conversations revolve around sports,cars,sex,kids,sports,practical jokes,tools,what a putz the boss is(orthe customer),sports,beer,t.v. etc.So I would say that this forum lives up to it's stated purpose pretty damn good.You have to take this for what it is and what it was meant to be and not get hormonal cause it ain't what YOU want it to be.I suspect that right now most of us are to busy to deal with a lot of in-depth topics right now.I also suspect that once winter comes again a lot of guys will have plenty of time on their hands for informative,detailed construction related topics.( Remember the Milkbone framing challenges)As far as posters using their own names,I am all for it.It is however a pretty trivial issue though when I think about it.How many guys do you see on job after job after job that you have no idea what their full name is?Or know just by their nickname?Doesn't make their opinions or info any less interestingI have got plenty of info here,but I could of easily got most of it out of a book also.To me the b.S. and bickering is more valuable just as entertainment.Good Luck,and keep slapping each other,Stephen
*Right. That would be like buying beer with no label.
*How do you know that, "steve"?
*Mr. Thomas cracks the whip on another stereotype!You generously overestimate the willingness of the big operations like Ford to change. Gabe and Fred would be cordially shown the door. Change costs money -- I forget the figure but to set up for a new model of automobile costs hundreds of millions. The auto industry has often fought change bitterly in areas such as pollution and safety. But it is getting better... Housing is hobbled even worse, though the scarcity of plain old quality wood is driving some big changes quick. And I bet the profit margin on cellulose is cr*p compared to that pink stuff!Do you know anyone who's done a Doctors Without Borders stint? Still wearing scrubs a friend gave me... great in hot weather.
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well, there's only so much internet porn one can look at.....
*Plus, where else can we carpenters exercise our pure animal cunning and napier wit?
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Whoa there, my learned friend,
The only reason Ford would show me the door would be for an estimate.
Besides I'm a GM man and FredL isn't smart enough to bid against me.
Gabe
*andrew d,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*R-A-P-I-E-R
*Joe, whatever your difficulty is with me I don't think you need to waste space on the board playing it out. In fact, doing so violates the Content Policy.All in favor say "AYE."
*"Napier" Andrew. The "er" of Nappy. Example: "Which roller cover do you want, this one?" "No, I'll take the napier one on your left." Didn't they teach you anything worthwhile at Hahvahd? Sheesh.
*N-A-P-P-I-E-R
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Err, excuse me. Rapier, n. [Fr. rapiere; prob. from raspiere, a name given in contempt, meaning a rasper or poker.] 1. originally, a slender, two-edged sword with a large cusp hilt, used chiefly for thrusting. 2. later, a light, sharp-pointed sword used only for thrusting. WEBSTERS unabridged, circa 1979.
*Let me add to this: 1. Insomnia's a bitch, especially with an unfinished thought. 2.I think this whole discussion ties into Pete Draganic's SHAGGED thing as well as the THIS PLACE IS BRUTAL by joe a week or so ago. We're dealing with a forum/ mode of communication that is only about three or four years old, right? There is no established etiquette as to how one should conduct oneself in an online conversation: it has all the immediacy of a phone call, but none of the intimate nuance of talking to another voice, and it has all the formal qualities of snail-mail without the second thought before you put the thing in the box. You can pretty much do and say anything you want unless you start into kiddie porn, and I guess the feds got the cyber-feelers out for that. So, anything goes right? Well, you have somebody posing as Pete D. and everything's in an uproar as well as some anti-p.c. prankster throwing things out as THE DICKEY to stir things up as well. As far as I can tell, most of the people involved in this group are like most carpenters I know in that they suffer from the gloriously opinonated BIG MOUTH, of which I too am guilty (I mean, I'll never meet you guys, unless it's at Jacks' hoe-down and God help us all at that point). Perhaps this is what makes up a good carpenter-blunt and to the point. In terms of Pete D. somebody posed as him and etc. etc..and though no harm was done, that person is a scapegoat--case in point: A good friend of mine took a swing at me in the street about two weeks ago after I had hacked into his e-mail and wrote him messages from "himself". It could have been the first internet related call on the show "COPS" had I not got back in my truck and drove off. Granted it was an asshole thing to do, but I thought I would be recieved as a prank, Ha Ha, hee hee. There was no maliciousness involved on my part, just four beers and a lack of good judgement, but I can no longer count that man as my friend. SO, my point is, even though THIS PLACE might be a complete snake pit, or completely unrelated to construction in general, and we might have people (like myself) pixieing through giving smart alec remarks, WE, MY BROTHERS are on the forefront of trying to flesh out what is acceptable in, or even what makes up a "healthy" chat group. Besides, what I said before, it beats all the porn out there.
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andrew d,
Joseph Fusco
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Sigh........
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Yeh, I guess that's as good an analogy as any. You'd have to "taste"(think about) the beer (idea) to decide how good it is, not just assume it's good because of the label (poster).
One thing I have noticed through the years is that someone who is not an "expert" in any given field often has a fresh perspective and is not carrying the weight of convention in their head. I often have people with little or no experience in my craft ask me some of the most provocative questions.
That is one of the best things about the mix of folks on this site. There are many levels of expertise, many levels of conventional thought, therefore many different perspectives. All valid. - jb
*Adrian Wilson,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*True. I think accountability will increase ... if a politician is accused of waffling, well you can get an exact transcript of what he said. News services should be expected to indicate where they got their information (a lot of lazy reporters who just crib official news releases are going to be flushed out!). Upstarts have a chance to be heard around the world in their own words without hijacking a plane or mailing bombs or raising $25b million from lobbyists. If you want the full story pro and con on breast implants or asbestos or EIFS you can get it. I'm very pleased to see the gov't putting more and more raw data online.A lot of computer folk are kind of libertarian -- as a friend explained, they are you to creating their own little worlds without interference -- and many predicted that the Internet would spell the death of traditional news sources. It has actually made them more important -- I do give CNN or the New York Times the benefit of the doubt -- but also lets their critics be heard. So maybe you still buy the same great beer but get a sampler set of microbrews when you feel like it. (OK, enough with that analogy!)
*Stephen,You've said exactly what I wish I had.Pete
*Hi Guys:Wow, I don't get in here nearly as often as I'd like, but I DO like having access to Breaktime as much for the opportunity to 'hang' with guys that do the kind of work I do (i.e., building/remodeling) as for the information that can be obtained/retrieved. I work alone mostly, and look forward to give and take with other independant, sometimes stubborn, experienced trades types. We couldn't even argue this issue without the internet. Caio.Hammer
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I have been coming to Breaktime for almost 2 years now. It simply amazes me just how much the power of the internet is stressed in the Media but in reality just how little it means to such a powerful economic industry as defined by "Construction".
Is it that the Construction Industry is not up to par with cyberville or is it that media has overestimated the power of cyberspace.
Just look at the activity here on Breaktime and ask yourself honestly........
Is all the hype just that?.....hype?