Replies

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Feb 01, 2004 09:48am | #1

   tom.. there is a link on the right to the toronto star article which gives a pretty good in-depth report...january '04

   sounds like it's good.. but you need the trained personnel to make it work

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   misfit | Feb 01, 2004 11:21am | #2

   interesting story, but a few questions come to mind...

   they claim they restore the R-value, yet no mention of how. Seal failure means loss of Argon doesn't it?

   "Hennessy stresses the warranty is on the process, not the window itself, because the failure could be elsewhere in the unit"

   then why bother with this type of repair? If you had one area fail, then it would seem likely that another would occur sooner or later. So if you had to pay for a few repairs that were not related to their micro filters/valves or installation of such, wouldn't it be more economical to just replace the window after the first failure? Maybe in the high rise condo's or mega window building it would make sense, but elsewhere? or is that their only market?

   it's offering a 30-year guarantee

   So what.....I'll build you a house and guarantee the framing for 100 yrs as long as no other component of that structure fails.

   As I see it, maybe its just another way to recycle and conserve....they mention keeping tons of glass out of the landfill a few times.

    

     A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work

1. 
   VaTom | Feb 01, 2004 04:43pm | #3

   they claim they restore the R-value, yet no mention of how. Seal failure means loss of Argon doesn't it?

   Argon isn't universal.  I looked at the cost for the extra maybe 15% performance and concluded the payback was never.  With better glass, the difference between air and argon went down to 12%.

   I too am skeptical, but I'd sure like to find a solution.  As someone who's taken a number of insulated units apart, it seems to always be only one place that leaked.  Not much chance of my investing in the system, but if somebody here did, I'd hire their services, even without a permanent guarantee. 

   Far as I can tell, time limitless guarantees are based on actuarial assumptions of ownership, rather than product quality.  You pay either way.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

1. 
   misfit | Feb 01, 2004 08:43pm | #4

   With better glass,

   Care to elaborate?? Like thickness? I thought glass was glass, except for tempered, etc. A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work

1. 
   kostello | Feb 01, 2004 08:57pm | #5

   you can get various coatings on glass that improve the insulation drastically.

   argon filling leaks out of the sealed unit over time aswell. they reckon about 1% per annum i think.

2. 
   misfit | Feb 01, 2004 09:05pm | #6

   coatings I knew about. I got the impression that there were different types of glass.   thanks

   ..Didn't know about the 1% per yr leakage...is that considered normal? A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work

3. 
   HeavyDuty | Feb 02, 2004 12:25am | #8

   >> argon filling leaks out of the sealed unit over time aswell. they reckon about 1% per annum i think.

   That's only if the seal is still intact. If the seal is compromised, it will be gone in no time.

   I was talking to my next door neighbour last summer and he mentioned to me about the process. He is in the water business and apparently these people approached him to get water for the washing part of the process.

   Argon filled units or not, what I see here is a broken seal and they are not addressing that problem at all. So if there is a broken seal how much of the insulting value would be lost?

   Also you are now talking about a dynamic process, water going in and hopefully the air circulation is adequate to get rid of it through the one way vent. How effective is the vent and what rate of air change are we talking about? If you are on one side of the equilibrium all the time then you should be fine but what if you are on the other side? You'll still get fogged units.

   Other problem I can see is if there is air constantly going in and out, dust will start to collect inside the unit.

   Does anybody have an estimate of what percentage of sealed units fails within 10-15-20 years? If it is indeed a workable idea, may be we should put the one way vent into new units when they are made (probably incorporate it in the spacer) so we would get at least 30 years out of them.

4. 
   kostello | Feb 02, 2004 12:41am | #9

   most of the reason that units fail in my experience is down to poor installation. generally the use of the incorrect materials (sealants etc..) and poor workmanship. i see work done by professional glaziers that is not done according to the best practise guidelines. and when they are questioned about it they have no idea about what they are doing

   incorrectly.

   the main reason for unit failure in my experience is water getting to the perimeter seal and sitting there. the 2 enemies of the perimeter seal are water and UV light as this tends to degrade the sealants used in most units.

   the best method for glazing sealed units into frames is generally agreed to be a drained and vented rebate whereby any water that gets into the rebate is drained out of the bottom.

5. 
   VaTom | Feb 02, 2004 12:10am | #7

   Care to elaborate?? Like thickness? I thought glass was glass, except for tempered, etc.

   Yes, coatings for a start.  Low e for heating climates and additional bronzing for cooling ones.  There's also thickness of the glass, both vapor space and pane thickness.  Also multiple glazing.  Filled with air, argon, krypton, aerogels, EPS beads. 

   My glass supplier listed 44 varieties.  All have different U values, light transmissions, and summer shading coefficients.  I'm pretty sure there are now more choices as I'm not current.

   I used 3/16" low e with 1/2" airspace.  Majority are now leaking.  Possibly I bought an inferior sealed product, don't know.  Set in concrete walls, they haven't done a lot of flexing.  The idea of replacing all these panels (300 sq ft) every 10 yrs is unacceptable.  I'd sure like to try a "stop leak".  Worked great for a cracked Ford engine block.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

6. 
   misfit | Feb 02, 2004 01:36am | #10

    Coatings like low E Argon, bronze, & tint I knew about, but thickness and airspace I didn't give too much thought about...wish I had. At least the Marvin Integrity's that I'm installing are performing as I expected.

    I can understand why you would look into some "stop leak"...300sf & majority are leaking....would be tough for me to swallow. Sounds like they fail after the warranty expires. Any luck with the warranty route?...I know I would be on there case if I was in that situation. If not, maybe that 'fix' might be your answer, but wonder if it would give you another 10 yrs?

    re: stop leak...Pretty sad that a lot of product manufacturers try to use 'Band-Aid's to correct design flaws. GM advises stop leak tablets to correct coolant leaks and even put a 'sanitary napkin'(that's being polite for what we call them<g>) under the water pump weep hole on the Quad 4 to correct leakage/seepage.

      A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work

7. 
   HeavyDuty | Feb 02, 2004 01:56am | #11

   Coatings like low E Argon, bronze, & tint I knew about, but thickness and airspace I didn't give too much thought about...wish I had.

   Bob, since glass is a much better conductor compared to air, the thickness of the glass doesn't really matter much. There is an optimal airspace though, less than that you have less air so the R-value goes down and greater than that a convection loop is set up within the space and that decreases the R-value as well.

8. 
   misfit | Feb 02, 2004 02:06am | #12

   I'm sure many factors are involved, but what is an ideal air space for northern climate homes? A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work

9. 
   junkhound | Feb 02, 2004 02:24am | #14

   If you have fisheye or pebbly looking fogging, there is no fix short of total glass removal and polishing as the 'fogging" is actually etched into the glass by a combination of chemical and moisture driven enzymes.

   Take a fogged window apart and try to clean it to verify this for yourself.

10. 
    HeavyDuty | Feb 02, 2004 02:56am | #15

    Can't remember exactly, somewhere around 1/2".

11. 
    geob21 | Feb 02, 2004 06:02am | #16

    I just don't see it working. Replaced too many units where one pane was totally loose from the spacer bar.

    And as said before the absorbent used causes acid etching of the glass once water starts to form. Condensation is the precurser to the milkey white film that is impossible to remove.

    I might be wrong... but I doubt it.

12. 
    HeavyDuty | Feb 02, 2004 06:55am | #17

    And as said before the absorbent used causes acid etching of the glass once water starts to form. Condensation is the precurser to the milkey white film that is impossible to remove.

    Read the Toronto Star article. They mentioned if the glass is etched then the unit would have to be replaced. I guess they do it before the etching takes place.

13. 
    MikeR | Feb 02, 2004 03:24pm | #20

    Yeah, I've got a couple of skylights in my shop that are almost pure white from the moisture getting in and then drying out.  I'd like to see them get those clear!  ;)

    Mike

14. 
    HeavyDuty | Feb 04, 2004 06:06am | #21

    You can use them over bathrooms. :)

15. 
    misfit | Feb 02, 2004 03:12pm | #19

    somewhere around 1/2".

    thanks

     A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work

16. 
    VaTom | Feb 02, 2004 02:21am | #13

    Coatings like low E Argon, bronze, & tint I knew about, but thickness and airspace I didn't give too much thought about...wish I had. At least the Marvin Integrity's that I'm installing are performing as I expected.

    When you're buying windows, you won't have all the options of buying glass.  I'm out of warranty.  One was replaced during.  Bearing in mind it's my labor no matter which.  If a patch got me another 10 years I'd be a happy camper.  I'd love a solution, but I don't see one.

    Regarding Tom's suggestion about glass thickness, going from 1/8" to 3/16" will change the U value .35 to .45 for the whole glass unit, depending on the unit.  .30 to .38 for argon filled.  Looks significant to me.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

17. 
    misfit | Feb 02, 2004 03:09pm | #18

    Regarding Tom's suggestion about glass thickness, going from 1/8" to 3/16" will change the U value .35 to .45 for the whole glass unit, depending on the unit.  .30 to .38 for argon filled.  Looks significant to me.

    interesting facts...thanks A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work

18. 
    HeavyDuty | Feb 04, 2004 06:12am | #22

    Regarding Tom's suggestion about glass thickness, going from 1/8" to 3/16" will change the U value .35 to .45 for the whole glass unit, depending on the unit.  .30 to .38 for argon filled.  Looks significant to me.

    What's the relationship between R and U values? And how are they defined? Just trying to make some sense about the effect on insulating value from different glass thickness. Thanks.

19. 
    xMikeSmith | Feb 04, 2004 07:04am | #23

    u and r are reciprocals... u = 1/r       r = 1/uMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

20. 
    HeavyDuty | Feb 04, 2004 07:21am | #24

    So he had those numbers reversed?

21. 
    VaTom | Feb 04, 2004 04:36pm | #25

    So he had those numbers reversed?

    No, and thank you for pointing out my error.  I read the wrong line and compared ¼" and ½" airspace.   

    With ½" airspace, the U value goes from .35 to .35 (as you correctly suggested).  I suppose somebody would want a ¼" airspace, but I don't know who.

    When I bought my glass, and before I ever saw a chart, I got differing U values quoted along with differing glass thicknesses, all for the same requested airspace, low e.  Unless there was a seal difference, that was also wrong. 

    My apologies.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!