Think you’re having a bad day?
GreatWhiteNorthGuy
| Posted in General Discussion on
This is one incredibly expensive disaster. After a brutally cold winter and guys sloggin’ thru ice and snow, an ongoing construction project in our city is going to have be completely demolished. It’s enough to make a contractor go bankrupt. At the very least, an ulcer and many sleepless nights are sure to be coming this guy’s way!
ICF (insulated concrete forms) probably should be restricted to below grade applications anyway – window and door openings look extremely challenging on this project.
Anyway, concrete didn’t appear to have been vibrated when it was poured and other areas simply froze. What a b*gger to build in the cold! Too bad. Such a waste.
Kevin
They don’t build ‘em like they used to. And as my Dad would say, “Thank God!â€
Replies
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I've built with ICFs, and it's not that hard.
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
ICF (insulated concrete forms) probably should be restricted to below grade applications anyway
GWNG,
Why do you think that?
SamT
Well, I'm no expert but when you look at using ICFs on interior walls - which will have to be strapped anyway to allow for electrical and plumbing installs - it seems kind of redundant. Why not build with block or wood? At least you'd have a cavity for mechanical installations. As far as exterior walls are concerned...you still have to apply a weather-proof finish to the foam, be it brick ties, vinyl siding. Causes a lot of damage to the foam. The interior still needs to furred-out (no chases in walls for electrical on this site) for application of drywall, etc. You could build with conventional block or wood, build an interior wall, install all the mechanical required, spray all with urethane foam or install batt insul, etc., apply drywall and you're done. These ICFs still need additional reinforcement (to carry a couple of storeys of Coreslab) and I don't see where re-bar could be installed to meet the engineering requirements.
Anyway, the point of this post was just to show that all the good intentions in the world are no match for winter building conditions and improperly poured concrete. Looking forward to Spring...
KevinThey don’t build ‘em like they used to. And as my Dad would say, “Thank God!”
why do you say that the interior has to be furred out? we build tons of icf down here with the same system as in these pics{www.arxxbuild.com}. the drywall and siding screws to those black plastic ribs and we run an electric chainsaw with a depth wheel to make a perfect little notch for romex.the Arxx walls are just about the best around and we've never had any trouble, except with the concrete plant. icf is great in the cold and Arxx is based in Canada.it doesn't take a genius to build you just have to make sure you brace it good and take your time when you pour filling up the walls about a foot and a half all the way around and then going back over in circles again like that.using plenty of steel makes for great 16' headers that can support many more floors above.
RTC
Thanks for the info on the electrical rough-in. I visited the website you mentioned and it suggested: chainsaw, hot knife or angle grinder. That's pretty cool. I appreciate the info. I watched this site as it progressed (at a snail's pace) and it sometimes took days to a window opening formed and fitted. Such a difficult thing to estimate.
Anyway, I think you missed the main point of the post. As the newspaper article says and the photos obviously show, the entire job has to be taken down to the ground level and started over. Somebody is going be held responsible for this fiasco.
So, like I said, if you think you're having a bad day...
KevinThey don’t build ‘em like they used to. And as my Dad would say, “Thank God!”
It's like old Soviet construction where they placed concrete in the cold. Only they accepted the results.
-- J.S.
I saw a movie where the Soviets were building in Siberia--they mixed boiling water with the concrete and mortar!
Those pictures don't look THAT bad. Maybe they could slap on some adobe colored paint and call it a new-old architectural style-- "Post-Battle Alamo." That might sell in the West.
Russ
how do ya tear down the first floor and not affect the budget?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I suspect that it's because 1.) someone's insurance is going to have to pick up the tab, and2.) they don't really have to tear down the entire first floor, just those poured segments...
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
Poor (or complete lack of) vibration, and a way-too-low slump.
I'd have had it torn down too.
Question is, what clued them in that there were structural problems? I have no way of knowing if there's voids or honeycombing in my ICF basement walls, unless I tear off pieces of the ICF and look.
Hi Jon! Just a guess, but I'll bet that someone rapped the wall with a hammer and heard "bong" instead of "whump", as in a void in the system. Or else a trade start routing holes to install electrical or other utility and found a void behind the foam. The entire site is scaped away in places and virtually everywhere you look you see honeycomb or no concrete at all. Unreal. Imagine if they started putting the next floors on top of those walls and and it all collapsed. Wow!
KevinThey don’t build ‘em like they used to. And as my Dad would say, “Thank God!”
Having done a couple of ICF jobs, pumped and right out of the chute, I'm quite sure there's no excuse for honeycombing. You just have to look, and vibrate, and use a plasticizer. And I'd have no qualms about pouring ICFs with the temperature down in the teens. Throw some insulation on top when you're done, and the concrete's exothermic set up will keep the water from freezing.
In fact, because the foam keeps the concrete damp for longer, ICF walls are far more likely to test at the design strength of the concrete than are traditionally formed walls. When you strip concrete forms, how many of you keep the walls wet for 28 days? That's what's needed for concrete to reach its design strength.
Sorry for the rant, but I don't think the fault here is with the ICFs. I think it's with the workmanship, and poor workmanship can screw up any building system.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Oh, I agree 100%. The problem shouldn't be with the ICF's at all. When I did my basement, I used a small stone mix at 3500 psi and a 6" slump. It was like dealing with stone soup. I can't imagine I have any voids or honeycombing. We went around with a chunk of plywood and a mallet and rapped the forms every foot or so, to act as vibration. I pumped mine, so we were always looking down in the forms to make sure that we got it placed everywhere.
I waited three months before backfilling any of it, and the section that has a full height backfill, has 5/8" rebar at 12" centers, both ways. I was not concerned in the least about system failure.
I have also placed ICF's, 3/8 bar snapped into the web holders on every course horizontal, 16" o/c on vertical, rod the verticals as you place the concrete, makes a great wall, scree to the webs to fasten finishes, stuco wire outside ect. Knife, cut, grind for elec. or whatever. There are complete houses , all but rafters, being done 'UP' here in REALLY COLD weather. -25F , just keep the top of forms insulated. (ARXX / AAB was what I used. ) I didn't have to buy rent forms for the few jobs i had & it is very fast & can use smaller people for laborers!
IF IT WAS EASY, EVERYONE COULD DO IT!