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tile came up and cant figure why

BIGJIM05 | Posted in General Discussion on January 6, 2006 01:10am

I put down a ceramic tile floor in my kitchen and for some reason 2 of the tiles are loose and came up while the rest of the floor seems fine. Any ideas what went wrong?

The proper backerboard was used but the peel & stick tile that was on it was removed and I put the tiles over it.

Do I just remortar  the tiles and try again or your opinion on what I can do to that area so it doesnt happen again.

Thanks

 

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Replies

  1. User avater
    EricPaulson | Jan 06, 2006 01:19am | #1

    If you really want a good and accurate answer, we need more info.

    Floor joist size (2x10 etc) span and spacing, then, what is on top of the joists, all the way up through the tile and how is it fastened, ie subfloor, underlayment etc etc.

    Eric

    [email protected]

     

     

    It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

     

     

     

    1. BIGJIM05 | Jan 06, 2006 05:26am | #20

      Not sure of the spacing I know that the hardwood floor from 100 years ago is under a brown backerboard from old owners 30 years ago.  The backerboard is nailed into position and all are still secure and not backing out. Then they put peel & stick tile on the board which I removed and now some of my tiles are coming off.

      I have complete coverage on the back of the tiles when I toook them up it just didnt seem to adhere to the board.

      1. FastEddie | Jan 06, 2006 05:28am | #23

        it just didnt seem to adhere to the board

        That could be from the shine you are seeing.

          

        "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

      2. ph882 | Jan 06, 2006 06:25am | #32

        Not to insult anyones intelligence here but, did they even make backerboard 30 years ago? Could this just be luan?

  2. scribefit55 | Jan 06, 2006 01:55am | #2

    what size tile? "lugs" on the back? perhaps the cavities weren't filled, reducing surface contact area?

    1. BIGJIM05 | Jan 06, 2006 02:36am | #4

      The brown backerboard I was told was OK was from 30 years ago.

      The glue from the self stick tiles I thought was off but if I sand the surface and re-apply my tiles will that work?

      Or am I stuck throwing everything out and starting again?

      HELP

       

      1. calvin | Jan 06, 2006 03:26am | #5

        Jim, you said in a previous post you were using Hardibacker under that tile.  Did you do that?  I don't know that you said what was on that floor b/4.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

        Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

        Quittin' Time

         

      2. bbqjason | Jan 06, 2006 03:35am | #6

        Your problem could be that you forgot to trowel the thinset under the two tiles that came up.

        Really hard to tell what's going on there.

        What do you have for underlayment?  How long ago did you install this ceramic tile?  What did you use to set the tiles? 

        1. BIGJIM05 | Jan 06, 2006 03:40am | #7

          The tiles were installed over brown backerboard that was 30 years old but the tiles have only been on the floor 2 weeks

          Yes I did trowel under the tiles and when it came off you could see the lines of mortar on the back of the tile and the coverage was complete

          1. bbqjason | Jan 06, 2006 03:56am | #8

            so when the tile came up, the mortar was still on the tile, and not the floor?  If the mortar didn't stick to your backerboard I'd guess your backerboard was dirty.  Could've been those areas weren't cleaned properly- maybe it was the adhesive, dirt, grease.  From what you've said I wouldn't rip your floor up, just clean the dickens out of those two spots, prime them with a good latex primer just in case, then re-set your tiles. 

            Does the rest of your floor sound solid?  Go around your floor and tap on the tiles with the handle end of a screwdriver- if they sound hollow you're going to have problems. 

          2. BIGJIM05 | Jan 06, 2006 04:09am | #11

            You are great.

            What type of primer is recommended? But if there is something on the board now how does a primer allow the mortar to adhere?

            Thanks so much I really need towork this out so I can get this floor finished--properly

          3. bbqjason | Jan 06, 2006 04:29am | #12

            Kilz2 will suit you fine.  It is latex (water-base).  Do not use oil.

            Think of the primer as applying a new, clean surface.  The thinset will bond to it.  BUT- you must make sure your backer is clean and sound before you do anything.  If your backer is not clean and sound, primer won't fix your problem.  I'm only recommending the primer as a little help in allowing the thinset to grab your substrate.

          4. User avater
            EricPaulson | Jan 06, 2006 05:00am | #13

            That should help a lot if he's putting tile on 2x6 joist spaced 24"oc spanning 14ft.

            A little Kilz'll solve that problem. Ok!

            Jeff, are you listening to this??

            Everyone go back and read the second post.

            Scheeesh![email protected]

             

             

            It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

             

             

             

          5. FastEddie | Jan 06, 2006 05:05am | #14

            Everyone go back and read the second post.

            Why?  What makes you think you're the only expert on the forum?

              

            "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

          6. User avater
            EricPaulson | Jan 06, 2006 05:54am | #26

            Relax. Are you?

            It was only meant to draw attention to the fact that much was being ignored.

            Now if you think that a little Kilz is gonna solve this guys trouble.................

            Sorry I stole you MO; joist depth, span and spacing.

            Try not to step on your toes next time.[email protected]

             

             

            It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

             

             

             

          7. User avater
            EricPaulson | Jan 06, 2006 05:56am | #27

            Actually a better question would be what makes you think I think I am?

            I am what I am toot toot.

            Popeye![email protected]

             

             

            It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

             

             

             

          8. User avater
            EricPaulson | Jan 06, 2006 05:59am | #30

            Masonite is not an approved substrate for ceramic tile install.

            No matter what the joist depth, spacing, span.

            Oye vay![email protected]

             

             

            It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

             

             

             

          9. User avater
            james | Jan 06, 2006 07:40am | #35

            Masonite is not an approved substrate for ceramic tile install.

            No matter what the joist depth, spacing, span.

            Oye vay!

             

            30 year underlayment under peel and stick tiles is more likely 3/8 particle board.... I bet the "Pro" just forgot to tell the guy to put down some mortar board ( hardi or durarock ) thinking that he would KNOW not to lay a masonry floor on particle board.

             

            james

          10. bbqjason | Jan 06, 2006 05:19am | #17

             

             -That should help a lot if he's putting tile on 2x6 joist spaced 24"oc spanning 14ft.

            It should?  I've never heard of that, but OK. 

             -A little Kilz'll solve that problem. Ok!

            There you go again.

             -Jeff, are you listening to this??

            I think he basically had the same inquiries as mine.  Since this fellow hasn't said much about what he's got, I read what he said.  Did you?

             -Everyone go back and read the second post.

            Good questions there.  I was wondering why he didn't answer them. 

             

            -Scheeesh!

            Yeah, sheesh.  Nobody said nuthin but you can read minds. 

          11. User avater
            EricPaulson | Jan 06, 2006 05:57am | #28

            huh?[email protected]

             

             

            It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

             

             

             

          12. bbqjason | Jan 06, 2006 06:44am | #33

            not claiming to be half as smart as you

            I know I'm not, I'm barely half your age I bet

            love to learn, thats why I read these boards everyday

             i gotta wonder why the chip on your shoulder though

            no skin off my back, this is a discussion forum after all

            a tool for learning, unfortunately it's also an easy place to find yourself in the middle of a bitch session

            people just need to chill

            it's not like your getting paid to be here

            I like to learn- sure learned alot about EricPaulson tonight

          13. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jan 06, 2006 05:58am | #29

            Jeff, are you listening to this??

             

            Not any more! I'm getting dizzy by all this circular reasoning.

            as with most tile Q's these days ...

             

            I'll stay out while all the other resident experts find the easiest way to semi-patch a bad install.

            Hell ... at this point ... I recommend PL Premium.

             

            I read down farther ... a guy not intending to do the install said it'll all be just fine.

            thinking the story starts right around that point in time ....

             

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

          14. User avater
            EricPaulson | Jan 06, 2006 06:04am | #31

            Yeah, well I'm just a juvenile attituded expert, why the hell should anyone believe me?

            HA![email protected]

             

             

            It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been

             

             

             

          15. FastEddie | Jan 06, 2006 05:09am | #15

            bb ... I'm not sure the primer will help that much.  I think you're right that there was some kind of dirt preventing proper adhesion.  If BigJim cleans and vacuums the area well, and wipes it with a damp sponge, it shgould work ok.

            BigJim ... heed the advice to get on your hands & knees, and tap on the tiles with the butt of a screwdriver.  They should sound solid.  If you hear one that sounds hollow, it's loose too.  Rememebr in Little League baseball when you tapped the handle of the bat on home plate, and if it was cracked it sounded different?  That's the same idea with the tile.  Just don't use the wife's home plates, or she'll use the bat on your head.

              

            "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

          16. BIGJIM05 | Jan 06, 2006 05:20am | #18

            You are all terrific but just a another quick question

            The board has a shine to it from old adhesive but no lumps so should I sand it and then clean well and use Killz?  If I sand it -it will open the pores in a way -will that help and then I clean?

          17. FastEddie | Jan 06, 2006 05:23am | #19

            You should probably sand lightly to remove the shine.  be sure to clean out all the sanding dust.

              

            "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

          18. bbqjason | Jan 06, 2006 05:28am | #22

            FastEddie, you are probably correct about the primer, but not knowing what this mysterious brown board is it might not be a bad idea.

          19. BIGJIM05 | Jan 06, 2006 05:36am | #25

            I need your expert advise if you know of the way to get the mortar off the back of tiles that came off without breaking the tiles. At $6.00 a piece I'd like to try to save them. Should I try a wire brush or something like it to try to clean the mortar off or am I just going to lose the tiles and need to buy new?

          20. FastEddie | Jan 06, 2006 07:56am | #36

            Try using a chisel to pop the thinset off the back of the tiles.  Sometimes it works well.  Sometimes it doesn't work at all.  Unfortunately, a wood chisel works best because it's usually sharper and can more easily wedge between the tile and mortar.

              

            "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

          21. BillBrennen | Jan 06, 2006 12:07pm | #37

            Jim,If the "backerboard" is 30 years old and previously was covered with peel and stick vinyl tiles, then you almost certainly have a substrate unsuitable for setting ceramic tile. Whether it is Masonite, particle board, or lauan underlayment, it is wrong, and will fail early. Figuring out what this stuff is, and telling us, is the best way to get actual usable information that will help you to do a good job on your floor. Help the pros who want to help you for free online.Bill

          22. User avater
            SamT | Jan 06, 2006 05:20pm | #38

            Bill,

            I ast him duh same Q away back in post #4.

            Jest used a more incredulous style.

            Many other posters have asked for that information or deduced that this brown, shiney, stick-on-vinyl underlayment was TOTALY UNSUITABLE for ceramic use.

            It has the appearance of him wanting to hear that his impossible situation is actually . . . . . . . . . ok

            I'm with Jeff.

            PL Premium.

            SamT

          23. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jan 06, 2006 03:58am | #9

            what is "brown backerboard" ...

            and who told U it was OK to tile over it?

             

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

          24. BIGJIM05 | Jan 06, 2006 05:28am | #21

            A local installer saw the board and said it was in sound condition and able to have ceramic installed over it.

          25. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jan 06, 2006 04:00am | #10

            "Yes I did trowel under the tiles and when it came off you could see the lines of mortar on the back of the tile and the coverage was complete"

             

            where were the "lines" and where was the thinset?

            did the thinset stick to the floor or to the tile?

             

            where ever it didn't stick ... that's where we start.

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

  3. User avater
    SamT | Jan 06, 2006 02:00am | #3

    The proper backerboard was used but the peel & stick tile that was on it was removed and I put the tiles over it.

    Hunh?!?

    What chew talkin' 'bout?

  4. rasconc | Jan 06, 2006 05:15am | #16

    In addition to the good questions Eric asked, what trowel and did you "beat in" the tiles?  Usually a tile would not have lines when removing if properly installed.  I too question the "backerboard", not sure what would have been put down 30 yrs ago. 

    I cracked a tile the other day while installing and had one heck of a time getting it out just from the surface tension of the thinset which had 100% coverage after putting it down with 1/4x 1/4 x3/8 trowel specified.  That was 5 min after putting it down.

    1. BIGJIM05 | Jan 06, 2006 05:30am | #24

      I also could not pick up the tiles after a few minutes but it seems that when a few dried they didn't stick to the board

  5. Wango1 | Jan 06, 2006 07:14am | #34

    I would like to know if the tiles that came up are at the end of the job. Could it be that the mortar was at the end of its pot life and never had a chance to 'grab'.

    Were they in the sun? Near a door or where someone could walk on them? Are they next to each other? Over a joint?

    MORE INFO!

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