Replies

1. 
   Scooter1 | Jul 28, 2005 08:38pm | #1

   Any exterior tile job in a freeze thaw state should be spec'ed as follows:

   Substrate, sloped mortar bed, membrane (like PVC), drainage mat like Troba, setting bed of mortar, then tile. Porceline are best because they don't absorb water. Mexican Salitos are the worst, because they are very porous.

   Regards,
   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

1. 
   mcdermotts | Jul 28, 2005 09:03pm | #3

   Thanks for the details. I would have just used the thinset and left it at that. Prep. you suggest must be to keep moisture from being trapped and freezing also to allow expansion etc. Important stuff. Any finishes necessary over tile or grout?

1. 
   FastEddie1 | Jul 28, 2005 09:10pm | #4

   The tile won't need any finish, because it won't be porous anyway.  The grout will need a good sealer to keep moisture from soaking into it.

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

2. 
   Scooter1 | Jul 29, 2005 01:33am | #9

   The tile work, in my opinion, is either exterior, in which case, I do all exterior work the same (as described) or interior. If the area gets any moisture, I treat it as exterior.No need to treat the tiles. Treating (sealing) the grout is optional, but probably a good investment. Expensive, though.Regards,
   Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

1. 
   mcdermotts | Jul 29, 2005 01:57am | #10

   Thanks and I agree. So for a 5' deep entry way that is dry, whats the minimum slope I can get away with and still have the Troba do its job?

1. 
   Scooter1 | Jul 29, 2005 02:27am | #11

   Quarter inch per foot is the magic number. Three eights would be better in a high moisture area.Regards,
   Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

2. 
   mcdermotts | Jul 29, 2005 05:13am | #12

   Thanks. Maybe Ill just go with astroturf. Kidding. Know a whole lot I didnt before and thank you and Ed for your time. Dan

3. 
   CAGIV | Jul 29, 2005 05:50am | #13

   What about using epoxy grout on an exterior?

    

4. 
   Scooter1 | Jul 29, 2005 06:00am | #14

   Certainly better than sanded grout. However, some moisture may still penetrate the seams of the epoxy. If it does, and freezes, well, you know the rest. In addition, all the epoxy in the world won't work worth a d a m n if the tiles aren't impervious to moisture. If you have epoxy grout and a porceline tile, well, that pretty safe.My point is that moisture and tile, especially exterior tile in a freeze thaw area is a disaster. One needs to spec out a system which allows the tiles to drain (a drainage mat), collect on a membraned surface, and slope it away from the area so it doesn't lift and destroy the tile. Epoxy simply allows the exterior tile to collect water and puddle. Will it go into the setting bed? Maybe not. I don't water puddling on the surfacte however.Regards,
   Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

5. 
   Scooter1 | Jul 29, 2005 06:02am | #15

   Oh, I did 2 years at KU in the 60's--I remember Vern Miller, the Red Dog Inn, the bars off of Ohio Street, and the Flippers, a KU party band. Probably showing my age at this point. What a great school. It was an 18 state, with 3.2 beer and I wasn't sober for the better part of 2 years.Regards,
   Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

2. 
   FastEddie1 | Jul 28, 2005 08:44pm | #2

   Boris know a little about tile, so he is a good resource.

   True saltillo tile would be a disaster, because they are soft and porous.  You can get ceramic saltillo ... I think DalTile has them.  Read the mfgr specs for the tile, or ask the tile store ... anything that is frostproof would work.  In general any porcelain would work, and most ceramic will work.

   If the tile will be open to any kind of weather, be sure to get one that will not be slippery when wet.

   You could just sand the paint rather thanuse muriatic.  Use a coarse grit like 60-80.  If the paint sticks well and is hard to remove, then you don't need to take it all off.

    

   I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/28/2005 2:00 pm ET by Ed Hilton

1. 
   mcdermotts | Jul 28, 2005 09:15pm | #5

   Thanks Ed- Since the entry doesnt get rained on, does Boris'suggestion of a sloped mortar bed still apply or can I start with the membrane over the existing,cleaned slab?

3. 
   Wango1 | Jul 28, 2005 09:30pm | #6

   after sanding, try flooding the area with water and see if it soaks in or it it beads up. If it beads, you still have sanding to do -- the mortar needs to 'soak' in too.

   I agree with boris and dan, and would encourage you to look for a tile that gets a coefficient of friction (C.O.F.) of .6 or higher when wet. ADA compliance for tile says they should be .6 dry so thats a good number to shoot for except yours will get wet. All the packages of tile at HD should have a label telling you these spec's.  Ina ddition, shoot for a tile that is vitreous or even better impervious. These absorb less water than others. See page 8 in HD's book Tiling 1-2-3 for more on spec's.

1. 
   mcdermotts | Jul 28, 2005 10:06pm | #7

   Thanks Wango1- Im confused now about the membrane mentioned by Boris. If that goes on top of the sanded slab, how does the mortar adhere to the slab? Is the membrane porous? Do I need a membrane between the slab and my thinset? Thanks

1. 
   FastEddie1 | Jul 29, 2005 12:32am | #8

   Most membranes, like Ditra, are thinsetted (?) to the slab or subfloor, then the tile is thinsetted to the membrane.

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

4. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 29, 2005 09:37am | #16

   Have you thought about boxing the edges of that slab and setting real pavers in a rock-dust bed? Then just grout it with more rock dust. Do it that way and you eliminate any need to worry about any water/freeze/cracking problems.

   If you're worried about the rock dust grout getting into the house on people's shoes, there is an epoxy-dosed exterior cement grout that is meant for this type of application, but it's somewhat costly.

    

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   

   But it is not this day.

1. 
   mcdermotts | Jul 29, 2005 05:23pm | #17

   Thanks Dinosaur. What I'm looking at here is a covered concrete entry 12' wide and 5' deep. Its surrounded on 3 sides with walls, front door,etc.
   there's a 4' wide by 18" deep step leading up to it (also concrete ) the step will need to be covered (top and sides)with whatever goes on the entry slab. The slab overhangs the step and is about 4" thick and that 12' wide edge needs to be tiled as well. Maybe this is a job for a contracter. Now thatI can ask some questions about how they are going to do it and what materials they would use.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 29, 2005 05:56pm | #18

   Sounds like it's already boxed in by sidewalls and the front of the house. What I'd do is treat it like a landscaping project instead of a tile job.

   1. Bust out that concrete step. Have some fun with a rented jackhammer. Real macho stuff, LOL.

   2.Dump a load of rockdust into the entryway. Rake and level it so it's about 4-5" deep.

   3. Lay 'cultured' stone pavers of the colour, shape, and texture that you prefer into the rock dust. Fair and level it.

   4. Vibrate the whole thing with a padded plate vibrator.

   5. Dump some more rock dust on top and broom it into the grout lines.

   6. Water it with a mist until the grout settles. Refill as needed and re-water.

   7. Let it dry, then blow it off with a leaf blower.

   8. Build a new step out of pavers. You can either dry-set them or mortar them, according to your taste and abilities.

    

   Dinosaur

   A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...

   But it is not this day.

2. 
   FastEddie1 | Jul 29, 2005 07:33pm | #19

   Maybe this is a job for a contracter.

   Maybe not.  It's only 60 sf and outdoors, so if you make a mess DW won't go ballistic.  Do you homework and get on with it ... it's probably well within your capabilities, and a good place to learn.

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

1. 
   mcdermotts | Jul 29, 2005 07:52pm | #20

   In tiling the edge of the slab as well as the front and side edges of the step ,do I need to do anything other to than clean the conrete and
   brace the tiles in place till the thin-set hardens. Or is there a mastic I can use on the edges that would set up faster? In that case is there an exterior mastic I can use for the whole job and forget the mortar altogether?

1. 
   FastEddie1 | Jul 30, 2005 12:17am | #21

   Don't use a mastic.  They have their place in the tile world, but wet areas is not one of those places, and being outside you need to expect it to get wet.

   You can buy quick set thinset ... I think mapei calls it type RS ... for Rapid Set.  But properly mixed thinset is quite sticky (relatively speaking) and all you need to do is temportiraly support the vertical tiles for several hours.  Masking tape over the edge to the horizontal tiles works, or shims of some kind ... folded scraps of cardboard ... busted tiles ... lego blocks ... whatever is handy and the right thickness.

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

2. 
   mcdermotts | Jul 30, 2005 01:35am | #22

   Thanks again- This is what Ive got so far. Clean the slab- apply a base of thinset,slope it 1/4" to a foot away from the house to the front step
   (5') apply a layer of Ditra, then a layer of Troba, then a layer of thinset and lay the tiles. Same for the top of the step I guess. What kind of stages can this be done in? Does the Ditra go onto wet mortar?
   I went to the website but they didnt say. thanks

3. 
   FastEddie1 | Jul 30, 2005 02:21am | #23

   I'm not familiar with the troba stuff, but here's the skinny on the ditra ... trowel on a layer of thinset with a small noitched trowel just like you were going to lay tile, spread out the ditra, smooth it out with the flat edge of the trowel, spread more thinset and lay the tile.

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

4. 
   mcdermotts | Jul 30, 2005 06:42am | #24

   Thanks Ed, I'll figure out how to put up a pic of the finished job. Dan

5. 
   JeffBuck | Jul 30, 2005 06:46am | #25

   I'm in Pittsburgh. We have 100 deg summers and -10 deg winters ...

   I'm a remodeling contractor that installs my own tile and I also sub tile installs ...

   I will not install tile outside ... unless I get a signed waiver.

   Seen one too many tile installs ... residential and commercial ... where the tiles "popped".

   If I can't guarantee it ... I don't do it.

   and I can't guarantee exterior tile.

    

   that said ... I believe the TCA(tile council of america) has "standards" in their handbook ... which used to be right here?  ... anyways ... might have it posted on their website ... but ... I'll bet it's exactly what Boris has quoted!

   freeze/thaw ... avoid that salt in the winter too.

   Jeff

       Buck Construction

    Artistry In Carpentry

        Pittsburgh Pa

1. 
   mcdermotts | Jul 30, 2005 02:11pm | #26

   Thank you Jeff. It looks like this entryway slab and step were once painted or stained. (house built in '72) It has a greenish cast to it.
   If I didnt go with tile,is there a good product to use to dress it up? The cement has got some pits but otherwise is in good shape.