Tiling a bathroom, and other sundries
Yes, I’ve read back posts on “bathroom tile” in the archives… I’d like to outline what I think I figured out from it and see if you all think I’m on the right track.
I’m about to redo our bathroom. The floor (linoleum over ply over 1″ plank) has gotten soft in some areas, the 50’s plastic tiles have mostly fallen off the lath/plaster walls, the lighting “blows” and speaking of blowing, there is no vent for this bathroom, located in the center of the house, which makes one think of the Amazon rain forest after someone takes a shower. It is time.
The plan is to demo the walls and ceiling to the studs, and peel up the plywood. The tub is resting on the subfloor and the ply is butted up to the tub. The subfloor seems to be ok. Mostly.
I will repair the subfloor where needed, lay new 1/2″ ply over it and a vent pipe to the soffit via the attic crawl. A sparky will update the lighting and outlets and put a fan in the ceiling.
I will put up a 6mil plastic vapor barrier over the studs and sheetrock with durock (cement backer board). I mud the joints with mortar and mesh tape and tile in a bed of thinset not mastic (1/4″ notch trowel).
The ceiling, walls get tiled and grouted. The floor gets more backerboard (set on thinset?) and then tiled and grouted.
Things I’m not certain on:
What sort of mesh tape and what sort of mortar? Same type of backer board for the floor? Any VB under the floor backer board? How do the tiles stick to the ceiling while the (thinset?) sets? Will my wife still be speaking with me 3/4’s through this project?
Travertine(?) 4″ tiles for the walls, 12″ tiles for the floor and ?” for the ceiling? And some sort of mosaic bands and inlays here and there. What sizes tend to work best for floor, walls and ceiling?
Replies
you will need to build a grid suport and shim to install the celing tiles or they will fall off before setting .This is alot of work good luck
>you will need to build a grid suport and shim to install the celing tiles or
>they will fall off before setting .This is alot of work good luck
Maybe tiling the ceiling isn't my brightest idea? I'm thinking of longevity and ease of maintenance. And because of the current lack of ventilation I might be overly worried about moisture problems. If I sheetrock the ceiling, can I use standard sheetrock or am I better off getting some greenboard?
You know, I had the money to, I'd have this done *for* me in a heartbeat. But I don't, and it has to be done...
Tape is fiberglass mesh, mortar is thinset.
Same type of backerboard on the floor - except you can use the thinner 1/4" version (adds no structural strength), and yes - set in/on thinset and well fastened.
Trowel notch size varies somewhat with the size of the tile - check the thinset bag and use whatever the manufacturer recommends for your tile size.
VB under floor backer board on floor - yes, I use 30# felt.
Tiles sticking to ceiling - unknown cosmic forces - I've never tiled on a ceiling, but I suspect it is just the thinset, gets pretty tough to move a tile after pressing in and waiting a few seconds on a floor or wall. Edit: see ejfbuilder post ...2 above.
Wife still speaking - 'pends on her temperment!
Too many taste variables on tile recommendations - find a look you like.
The longevity of a floor tile installation is directly related to the stiffness of the floor structure. I think the readers need to know a little more about that - 1/2" ply over 1" plank floor sounds OK if well glued and screwed, but what is underneath the plank floor for framing? Floor flex is always bad.
Others will chime in soon.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 12/13/2005 3:55 pm ET by JTC1
What is the point of using thinset under backer board on the floor if you`ve got a vapor barrier between it and the subflooring?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Fills any voids under the backer board.
Thinset, set the board, screw board down @ 6" oc, go away until the thinset cures. Solid all over.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
So I'm clear on this, you're suggesting 30# felt over the plywood, stapled down, I suppose, then thinset trowled onto the felt, then backerboard, and finally thinset/tile?
The bathroom is on the second floor, is roughly 7' x 8'. in the direction of the joist run, one end is at the house centerline load bearing wall and the other straddles a load bearing wall on the first floor. Once the crappy plywood is ripped up and the bad planks replaced, this should be about the most solid floor in the house... Ok - I just wasted 1/2 hour trying to ascii art this. I'll attach a small jpg showing the basic layout.
Would I be a smart guy to use a thicker plywood (and a higher floor level) , or even two layers of the 1/2"? The ceilings are 8 1/2', I can afford to lose a little height.
The vb behind the walls - yes, this is completely interior - I thought I needed to protect the surrounding space from the moisture? Is this plastic/felt not necessary?
If the wife speaking with me depends on temperment, I'm a goner.
Thanks for the drawing. I've read the posts which came in last evening, and will add my .02 worth. To the other posters - I have shamelessly incorporated some suggestions - you will recognize them.
Smart to use thicker plywood? yes, but I would tend to use 1 layer of 3/4" rather than 2 - 1/2". Not all plywood is created equal - you should use only a plywood which is APA rated "Sturd-I-Floor" - this rating will appear in the APA stamp on every sheet (regardless of where you buy it). I extend the plywood and felt all the way under the tub.
1/4" backer board on the floor - Durock, HardiBacker, etc. all make a thinner version. !/2" merely raises the floor elevation - insignificant structural value. The backer board on a floor functions as a bonding agent. Flooring order: well fastened plank floor, 3/4" plywood, 30# felt, thinset, 1/4" backer board, thinset, tile & grout.
VB on walls - yes, and the ceiling too - I use 6 mil poly. Like someone said - last line of defense for the framing. BTW, I tape the seams in the poly and felt with Tyvek tape; anal, I know, but the customers love it when the kids decide to have a water fight and flood the floor.
Any wall or ceiling surface which is not tiled gets greenboard, i.e, MR drywall. 1/2" on walls, 5/8" on ceilings.
Heavily insulate the ceiling - the more the merrier - 50, 60. I always insulate the walls around the tub also, and set the tub in plaster of paris or mortar - does wonders for the flex of a fiberglass tub, not needed if cast iron. Be nice to the next guy and cover the top of the mortar pile with a layer of poly so the tub isn't bonded in place.
Fans - a must, don't even think about omitting, required by our code; timer is a great add on. Remote units are very nice but a little pricey. There are some pretty quiet direct mount units (especially if you are half-deaf like me).
Skylight - would be a great addition, huge wow factor. Very popular with my customers. If installed, the fan / intake needs go as high as possible in the skylight shaft to extract the warmest / moistest air from the bath. I like Velux, either opening or fixed. The light shaft needs the same VB and heavy insulation as the ceiling.
Even though it is a relatively small bathroom, pay attention to planning your lighting - makes a big difference, especially in an interior bathroom.
Tip for the DW - if you can get her directly involved in the actual construction project, she will better understand the progress you are making. Dissapear into the demo'd bathroom and refasten the plank flooring, you make noise for an hour or so - she pokes her head in and all you have to show for your time and noise is some naileads in the floor - generally women don't care about the work that does not show. If she is in there banging nails with you, she knows what was going on, and during that time you will be able to explain the next noisy / dirty / smelly step in the process. It will be tougher if you cannot engage her in the process. Most women assume that when the fixtures are delivered the bath will be done tomorrow.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Sounds like a pretty good summary - I'll wind up making a couple of practical changes - like the tub set - if I don't HAVE to take it up to repair the subfloor, the ply/tile would still butt up to it. It is cast iron, although it is a fairly timeless design - looks like many modern tubs.
I'd love to do a skylight, but I think all I could get away with would be a light tube - and the area I could reach is always shaded. Not worth the expense.
Well I know I'll mess something up, but hopefully with all the advice gathered here, not too badly :)
(btw my wife would be afraid she'd break a nail - she won't be helping... ;)
.....wife would break a nail...... in that case you need to hustle!
How to drown out whining, 4" or larger grinder is usually pretty good, Craftsman shop vac is the best.......
Good luck with the remodel.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
My wife's done about 90% of the interior painting in our house, 75% of the papering, and tiled the kitchen backsplash and upstairs bath walls herself. (I did the bath floor, and most of the downstairs bath, with her help.)She draws the line at plumbing, though.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Many moons ago, when cement backer came into being as a floor tile substrate, I was taught that installation required permitting the wood subfloor to move independently of the cement board. Affix the board....but don`t "over" do it. Theory being that the wood framing was going to react to seasonal changes in humidity greater than that of the backer board.
The vapor barrier would help achieve this.
Ya got me thinkin`.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Since this is (I gather) all interior walls, why do you want a vapor barrier?
happy?
here's my advice ,
bag the tiled ceiling thing, your asking for trouble there, and your wife will definately kill you, because you broke so many tiles, and one probably fell on her head!
bag your plank floor and lay some 3/4 down, if you don't wanna do that you may be able to stabilize those planks with some 1/4 luon. its a sheet material thats great for that kind of stuff. this would go down under your durock. this kinda depends on your toilet flange ( how high it is), and where your walls fall on the existing subfloor.
green board all the walls except the shower.
run durock around the tub about six feet high (two sheets high, its 3x5) as well as on the floor. tape and set the stuff as described above. you can't "set" it on the wall studs so you just hang it every 6". use the proper durock screws for this, anything else will eventually rust.
your tile sizes are a mattar of aestetics, talk to a tile salesperson.
if the 2nd floor is the top floor, go ahead and run an exhaust fan through the attic. it's the best possible answer. if you wrap that room in vapor barrior (plastic) your gonna have a bad mildew problem, you will have a bathroom in a bubble. moisture as well as smells will linger........gross.
moisture resistant (green) drywall is the answer it will allow exchange of air, without being compromised by some moisture.
if your not big into drywall work, i would sub out the tape and finish. you will easily find people to do this, and the prevented aggravation is literally money in the bank. scores points with the wife as well.
use a acrylic modified thinset on the shower walls, and caulk instead of grout the corners in the shower, this way the tiles on the walls will move togather, and the caulked corners will be flexible enough to withstand the expanding and contracting of a house. you can find color matched caulk to whatever grout you choose.
i know its a lot of advice at once so feel free to ask for a clarification.
I can see not tiling the ceiling if it preserves martial, er, marital bliss.
I'm stuck with the plank subfloor because the tub is set in place on top of it and I really really really don't want to reinstall the tub. The existing plywood is over the plank subfloor and butts up to the tub (the tub was installed before the plywood). I plan to replace what I have to in the subfloor and replace the plywood with new. I expect to have 1" plank, 1/2" ply, 1/2" backer, 1/4" or so tile. If I can get the flange removed, I'll reinstall it over the tile layer. If the plank floor IS so damaged I must replace it too, I'll lay down 3/4" ply
I sort of already bought the durock and plywood, with the intent of rocking all the surfaces with the durock. Since the stuff is so heavy, I'm far more inclined to proceed with the durock walls and floor than try to trade it for greenboard.
The attic is easy to access from the room so installing the fan should be easy. I figured this would handle the moisture/odor issue. What if I used the plastic behind the backer board just in the shower/tub area?
JTCI seems to have the gist of it. The layer of thinset under the floor backer board should be a little thiiner/runnier than normal ... you want it to be easily squeezed into all the voids and low spots as the CB is screwed in place.
Tiles on the ceiling is easy. Bigger tiles are a bit of a trick, but still not hard. 6" tiles would be easy to do. You would be surprised at the holding power of properly mixed thinset. One way to temporarily support the tiles would be to use drywall screws with fender washers, and run them throiugh the joint lines into the ceiling. Even the sheetrock will provide enough grip to hold the tiles until the thinset hardens The absolute hardest part about tiling the ceiling is grouting. Keep your mouth closed when you do it. Personal experience.
Zalldust didn't mention a vapor barrier on his walls. It is absolutely needed. Even though they are inteerior walls, the vapor barrier is the last line of defense for moisture that seeps through the tiles and grout. 6 mil poly or 30# felt are both good choices. So is a priduct by Noble, I thinks its Nobelseal. It's a heavy non-woven rubberized material that is sold as a waterproof membrane. I buy my tiles at DalTile, and they stock it.
The cement board on the floor is really only to provide a good bonding surface for the tiles. 1/4" hardiebacker is a good choice. It's al;so available in 1/2" but there's no reason to use the thicker styuff unless you need to raise the tiles another 1/4". If you have the headroom, don't skip the cb on the floor.
You said that you are semi-committed to the durock. It's a very good product, but heavy and nasty to work with. If you can "trade" it for hardiebacker, that would be easier to use. There's nothing wrong with greenboard, but it still needs a vapor barrier.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 12/13/2005 10:13 pm ET by FastEddie
I'll agree for the most part with the general consensus and just add a few details that will change the feel of the space.
In luxury homes we very often use 5/8" rock for ceiling and walls for a more solid feel. It deadens sound a bit more, but mostly provides stiffness.
We also insulate all interior walls and floors with unfaced bats. This cuts down on bathroom noises, but also provides a more cozy space that warms up faster and is more comfortable if you are a bath fan. Bathrooms have such small square footage that insulation is quite inexpensive. The difference is often quite dramatic and this would be on my "must have" list.
Speaking of the bathtub, we'll also insulate that, although we're usually talking about a current model fiberglass tub.
Living in a moderately cold climate insulating the attic space above the bathroom to R50 to R60 makes for a cozy space with little condensation on the ceiling since it stays warmer. This sounds like a lot, but with such a small footprint, it is pretty cheap.
Skylights are a fantastic addition to land locked bathrooms with no hope for a window. It makes the space appear larger, provides much needed natural light and is simply neat. Even a small skylight with a splayed light shaft will get a lot of wows. The cost for a skylight is relatively cheap since you're doing the work.
Over normal tubs I'll always try to include a gentle arch to frame the space and take away some of the boxiness. This also provides a great place to break the tile.
Think about a light over the tub when you're upgrading the other lights.
If you are a fan of shower curtains a curved curtain rod is a great addition.
For an exhaust fan it's hard to describe how nice a totally quiet fan is. By using a fan with a remote motor/fan it cuts down on the noise a great deal. Upgrading the fan to one that pulls a lot of air clears out the moisture quickly and makes the space much more comfortable. We always use a timer since they are quick and easy to use and they turn off when not needed.
A bathroom remodel also benefits a great deal from a well made solid core door. It's often the most used door in the house and an upgraded feel to the door is money well spent.
To sum up all the changes I've listed is difficult since the surfaces are more solid, the space has more warmth, the noises are less, the light is better, and overall you have a feeling of being in a high quality space.
Happy holidays,
Don
You know... I should learn a lesson from this...
Miraculously, the demolition is done, the plumbing is done, the wiring is done, the durock is hung.
All I have left to do is the joints and the actual tiling.
Yeah. Thats all. Should be done by Christmas.
2010.
By the way, whichever one of you said Durock is dirty and nasty to work with? You said it, buddy!
But there is hope on the horizon. What is done looks great. Thanks for all the suggestions.