I remember a story in one of the “Small Houses” books that touched on this. I also recall an article in FHB where a contractor pulled all the subs together to review spec plans and make changes to ease everyone’s job. Here are some of the tips I recall, but I bet y’all know many, many more –
(My goal is a list of practical tips to save money on a new home when starting with a blank sheet of paper. I am not talking about cheap materials and homes devoid of details, just simple thoughts that save time and money)
-Minimize the corners on the foundation – 4 right angles, rather than run the foundation out and around for a small breakfast nook, use properly engineered cantilevers
-Consolidate plumbing runs in one or two “Wet Walls” – the laundry room is on the other side of the wall from the bathroom.
-Build to the dimensions of the materials – outside dims divisible by 4′
-Carry loads down through a straight path to the foundation
-?
Bring em on!
Replies
Your title sounds like a tips column for things like this:
I use a little Gorilla Glue to stitch the corners of my nail bags together to make them last longer so I don't have to replace them as often. I just put a dab in place and screw a clamp on overnite to heal them. Works good for tool belts too and it can replace duct tape for shoe repairs if you have a scrap of leather handy.
But it looks more like you are looking for home design tips here. In that vein, it would be good to specify whether you are generic or speaking about a custom, spec, your own, habitat for humanity and other low-income projects or a whole developement.
Things like
use all same colour paint
saves money but might not inspire anyone to buy a spec house
So how about a little more focus to the discussion. Give me a target to shoot at.
Excellence is its own reward!
You know Im gonna like this post.
Tim Mooney
Jim, ya just swung up on a BIG horse . Maybe to broad a horse to straddle. I have mostly written a couple of posts like this one. One problem is the world is a big one and we all have different problems to solve. I will scratch the surface ;
With utilities getting higher , incomes shrinking along with taxes paid in and mostly legilators wanting to raise our every thing including gasoline, heating gas or oil and electricity , I think we should be thinking about consevation and high energy effciency in our plans for the next five years. Theres a lot of baby boomers wanting to retire that have lost there retirements , or a big portion of them . I think stepping down a notch in the area may be the answer with plans that have high livibility because we arent going to accept it easily. We need to figgure on cheaper ways to build on smaller budgets , but building for clients that wont like stepping down. It will hit us and it should hit hard as we are on the tail end of the down swing. It doesnt look like we have" up" answers in the near future. Some will be fortunate not to get hit , but most will.
Tim Mooney
Piffin - I would be happy to clarify! I mean this to be generic, but I think it may help if I tell you that I am a DIY'er looking to GC my home in about 2 years.
Take a few steps back and think about how "efficient" you are because of all your years of experience. While asking that you convey all of that information here at breaktime is quite a tall order*, I am asking you for some thoughts on this topic.
(*some may argue that you are well on your way to just that end considering the proliferation of your posting . . . ;-)
The one paint color note is not as "duh?" as you think. My thought about the paint would be to use white as a first coat everywhere and then patiently visit the Oops shelf at HD for accent walls.
Tim - there are threads here that have topped 1000 posts. Some of them are even interesting to read ;-) This is just a tiny horse, a pony even!
I couldn't agree more with your thoughts about the future of home construction and energy efficiency. I have faith that technology must rise to meet the challenge as the market will give "US" no other choice.
However, I direct the same challenge to you as I did to Piffin. Share some of the knowledge you may take for granted.
One thought is this: Imagine if Habitat for Humanity slightly modified their process and asked the potential HO to draw up their own set of plans. Now imagine that this potential HO came to you for advice. . .Steelkilt Lives!
OK, let's see if we cancrack the window open a little on this one.
Andersen Windows are a good value. Sliders are often less expensive from any manufacturer. Claaaa and pre-finished is always a good thing, in terms of labor savings. don't waste money on snap in grilles. I mention windows because the window and door budghet is a large portion of any house. Choose size, and number and location carefully but don't skimp so much that yuou end up depressed because you hae no light or view.
Wall to wall carpet is the most inexpensive flooring choice.
Make contact with a remodelor in your neighborhood. Sometimes, I go for a couple years with nothing recuclable of value and other times, I'll have three SS kitchen sinks and a cast iron bath tub or two to get rid of in three months.
But check your situation when doing much recycling, even if for yourself. The bank financing you might want to be sure that everything is new. Finance cost are another big part of the picture, shop around and compare. It is not a hardware item but it is a partial cost of the house so it is a valid place to look to save money.
Keep the roofline simple.
Energy efficiency can conflict with initial cost so you've got some studying to do there. What is your geohgraphical location? What heating systems are commonly used there? Can you learn to do plumbing by then?
I live in a log home. Many people assume that these are les expensive to build. This is not the case. It is more of an emotional decision than a practical one to own log.
Vinyl siding. Cheap. All I'm gonna say about that.
OSB OK on sheathing sidewalls. Questionable on roof. For the extra couple hundred bucks, I go with plywood there. short or no roof overhangs save bucks - maube two grand - but it is important to get water away from the foundation.
Kitchen - best value i find in cabs is from Merilat or Diamond.
Design layout there is a can of worms. Not a place to scimp, IMO. Keep her happy if you want to eat something other than crow.
For your situation, I favor designs that will let you finish primary living area first to get moved in and then move forward. Unfinished basements and uppers.
The cape is a time honored home style because it is efficiently laid out and efficient to build and heat. Can be built over a basement, crawl space, slab, or piers. My neighbor built his small one one cedar posts and put a basement under it six or seven years later,. not the cheapest way in the long run, but he doesn't have a mortgage either.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
I once did some work for a guy who used the "oops" paint tip. With one small variation. He said that the paint guy at the big box retinted the paint, for free or a minimal cost, to make the colors more acceptable. He showed me the rooms where he used the stuff and they looked good. Maybe a bit dark for my taste but it fit his decor. He showed me one of the cans, he was quite proud of it, and from what I could see he got top quality paint for about $2 a gallon. Cool deal that.
Jim , you want to save money, on your upcoming home, I wish you the best of luck, I really do. If you can afford to work for free on your own home, and do acceptable work, then by all means go for it, heck, I' ll even take my hat off to you. What I will add to your question, is this, know what things cost, before you by!! And while you are in the design stage, I personnally love wide doors through out, make one bath room , along with one exterior entry, handicape accessable. My rule's, Safety, Function, Asthetics, in that order , Jim J
You mentioned designing the home yourself. No disrepect intented, but what are your qualification?
If you do some type of design work for a living, good, but in designing a house there is more to it than things like grouping plumbing fixtures together. Piffens example of no overhang at the roof will save you money on construction, but depending on site oreintation and location of the home, could cost you $$ in heating and cooling. These are just a few of the many items that work together in a house. Myself, I am not a designer, so I have learned to listen and take notes.
Think about how you live now, as well as where you are living. What bugs you about your current abode? What parts of your lifestyle won't change when you build a new home? What will? How can you design a home that fits your life? Kids? How old and how long will they be living with you? Extended family visits, or do you like to entertain? The list goes on and on, but I think you see where I am headed.
Designing a home to be cost efficient is great if it can also meet your family needs for something other than shelter and budget. Make a list of anything you can think of that you want the home to do for you , the way you live now and in the future. Think about them for weeks or months to make sure the things you have listed are really important to you. Then start your design process, or take you lifestyle list to a design professional and start the process there.
I have done this very same thing myself. It cost me a little up front money, and what I got was not just an energy efficient designed home, but one that is designed for economy of construction material and ease of construction.
I might also add that unexpected things still happen. DW and I planned our home for empty nesters. We now have six year old adopted grandson.....:-)
Dave
Piffin - Perfect, thanks:
-Clad Sliders seem to be the best window value, skip the grilles
-Simple Rooflines, no overhangs if possible/acceptable
-Talk to remodelers about "recycled" goods
-Main floor first, up and down later
-Carpet some areas "for now" to get CO
4Lorn1 - You are a resident electrical expert here, no? There must be some electrical layout tips that save time and money (without cutting code or safety corners) - how about fixture recommendations, what are some examples of uncommon deals or relative bargains you've seen in that area?
-Potentially re-tint the oops paint, good tip
44 - You touch on two very good points. Not only does one truly need to know all costs at all times, it is also a good idea to make sure you are looking at true costs.
-I am leaing towards integrating accessibility for all main floor living areas, first floor bath and one first floor bedroom.
DAVERICHESON - My qualifications . . .(no offense taken) I am a DIY'er that can do most basic tasks in a slow-but-acceptable manner: framing, plumbing, electrical, trim. I ask lots of questions and read lots of reference literature. BUT - I don't do this stuff every day like many here.
For all intents and purposes, think of the reader of this thread as an apprentice framer making notes for a home he will build in 5 years. I hope this thread creates a useful list for more than just me. Now, on to your advice:
-Think about things for YEARS - I'm all over that one. Nothing is going to happen on this project anytime soon away other than sketches (and potentially storage of "finds" in my garage)
-I will hire a designer/archy in the end eventually, but I want to bring to them a "near completed" design trying to integrate much of what I learn along the way. My guess is that the more prepared I am to talk to the pro, the less I will spend on their time. I will also shop carefully for that person.
KEEP 'EM COMINGSteelkilt Lives!
"Think about things for YEARS -"
We spent three years in the dream and design phase of our house, refining the layout and details.
It really paid off. We both still love our home, seven years approx after moving in..
Excellence is its own reward!
Are you trying to build the lowest possible cost house or the most bang for the buck? My first thought from your question was most bang for the buck, but some of the responses that I see tend more to lowest cost.
Now you said that 4 corner foundation would be the cheapest and you are probably correct. And I went that way. When I build my house in 79 I was overly concerned about cost for such things and made it a basic rectange. Now I did spend very good money for windows, cabinets, appliances and the like. And except for carpeting the house is still looks fairly new.
But I realized that I made a mistake in the basic layout. It bugged me for years until I was finally able to put my finger on it.
The main part of the first floor is an L shaped space with kitchen on the short leg and the dinning area/living area on the large leg. Now there is a wood structual beam, posts and a soffit between the kitchen and the other space. So while it is completely open it is still a separate "isolated" area.
But there is no distinction between the dinning and living space. And I made it symtrical with two large windows and a door between them. It makes it hard to arrange furniture. And I live on a lake and the ground slopes away from the house. In the dinning partion the window is fine. However, in the living portion the window cuts off the view. I now realized that if I had bumped out the living room portion of the wall and uses a large door unit (8-9 ft) that would have changed the whole character of the space and defined the different uses and still kept it open.
In fact is the engineering works out I am going to do that, but it would have been much less costly to that way orginally.
While my taste and needs have changed in the almost 25 years since I built this house if I was had to rebuild it and could only change one thing about it it would be that bumpout and I would everything else about. Of course if I was starting from scratch I would strech this and shrink that and move this over there and by the time I got done I would be different.
And in many ways I did what you are talking about. I have 2 baths upstairs back to back and one below it and the landry, furnace, and WH next to that. So except for the kitchen all pumbing is in one very compact space.
Actually I "lied" when I said that it only had 4 corners. The lot on a hill side and very irregulary shapped. So the house is acutally T shapped with living space the top of the T and the garage the vertical part of the T.
The roof is a very simple, 2 intersecting gables. Very basic and simple, except in over the master bedroom I have a vaulted shed roof with a clerstory wall and an East facing window high in the wall. I love this. In the morning during the summer I wake up with a nice bright ceiling. Rarely ever use the lights in that room except late at night. Now I don't have any idea now much extra that cost me. I don't think that it was a lot, but it was extra and I love that feature.
Also a critical part of all of this is making the plans fit the lot or finding a lot that will accept your plans. And also the orientation of the house. You can spend lots, and lots of money for excavation and utilities that could have been fixed with a different design/location/orientation.
And there are lots higher expenses that can be adjusted in this like the mechanicals and appliances. And I am not just talking about going cheap. For example if the location and utilities point to a heat pump then look at the cost and performance of a ground source heat pump. MUCH more expensive to install, but look over the 20 years of operation. Lot of cost to upgrade. But on the other hand you can get a real cheap stove, maybe even used, and then replace it in a few years.
Plumbing, electrial fixture, cabinets, flooring all affect the cost much more than building on 4 ft increments. And the also, in most cases, affect the "livability" of the home much more.
My whole point is that I am trying to make is at this point I would not focus on the cost near as much as what you want out of the house. What kinds of spaces do you want, what connects to what, how big do they need to be, etc.
Plan the house that you want first and then see how the cost work and what trade off you need to make.
To save big, you have to save on the most expensive materials -- windows, not gravel ;-)
Since you're going to design from scratch yourself, look around for new windows you can get for cheap because there was an error in the order. Then design around the actual windows. If you get really lucky, you may get a whole house worth of windows at once, but if not, try to get all the windows on one side from the same source. That way it won't look like a hodgepodge. Even if you devote more than half your garage to storing windows, it'll probably be the biggest savings you can make by buying ahead.
-- J.S.
Jim- that's the voice of experience talking there.
It's amazing what price you can get new windows for if you are patient and beat the bushes.
It might be worth your drive to find a homeproduct auction near you. Check auction listings and the net. Or check with a window or door manufacturer to find out where their seconds go to which is usually an auction outfit.
Go once without the truck just to scout it out so you won't be tempted to buy a bunch of stuff without thinking about it. Cheap stuff and easy to do.
I remember one time going just to look around with no idea of buying anything. Windows. Low attendance at the auction. Trouble. I went home with the truck so loaded I looked like I was The Grapes of Wrath. Pulled the brim of the hat down to hide my face. $20 or $30 bucks for a new thermal vinyl 5x8 foot. I'll find a place for it. Bunch 0f 4x4 and 4x5 foot vinyl picture windows. $10 each. Hey, I'll find a place for 'em. 4x5foot double vinyl casement $60 cause one dealer was bidding against me and I did have a place for that one.
Molding, rails, balusters, lighting and etc. are usually available but as always it's buyer beware so scope out the stuff good. A buddy bought a bunch of red oak flooring and discovered later that the end cuts of t&g weren't exactly 90degrees. Imagine the discovery.
Edited 3/10/2003 3:45:26 PM ET by rez
I live in WI and tried contacting some window mfgs about "scratch and dent" stuff, but didn't get very far. Some are very protective about stuff making it out the door that is less than perfect.
There is a wierd, old lumberyard here that has a good stockpile of windows that I think they have picked up at auctions and such through the years. It is all new stuff, but it is a crap shoot as to what you'll find. In my last project I was too far into the build to make use of any of their stuff, but I won't make that mistake next time. I will probably take a day to go picking to see what I can find and then go back to my drawings to see what I could make fit . . .
So, to gel this down, aThe tip here is to save up the real $ for plumbing fixtures, windows, doors, and other big ticket items. Then go bargain hunting over a 6(?) month period - auctions, factory close-outs, lumberyard and builder mistakes.Steelkilt Lives!
But be extra careful on window storage. Protect with osb or something, make sure they cannot be tipped over and place them in anarea that you won't be working around.
Hello Jim,
If it's acceptable in Wi. how about 19.2 inch OC as opposed to 16. ? I've done this and it worked out well , I sheathed the exterior w/ 5/8 cdx for added strength but I think that might have been over kill .
PS I was making my own extension jambs so I added an eight inch .
Good Luck in your endeavors
Chris
Edited 3/10/2003 8:31:47 PM ET by chris
19.2, this is coming dangerously close to being a hi-jacked thread . . . .
(if you don't know what I mean, do a search for "black diamonds" ;-)
Seriously though, I am not sure that that decision is one that makes much difference to a guy building only one house. What did you do for insulation in that width? Was that extra or did you do blow-in?
I will do my BOM and such in a SS and compare numbers anyway - I suppose there is no reason I couldn't do the walls on 24" centers. . .(*cringe* - here we go . .)
Steelkilt Lives!
Edited 3/10/2003 8:54:09 PM ET by Jim
If you look after the dimes ,the dollars look after themselves. I don't know at what point it becomes a concern to someone who is only building one house to save on a number of items mentioned.
What I would suggest is use some of the pocketed savings from GCing your own project and indulge yourself.
I guess if you look hard enough, you'll find quite a few similarities in past , present and future threads, more than likely not intended.
Again good luck .
Chris
"If you look after the dimes ,the dollars look after themselves."
Thats the way I look at it. I think we are all after bottom line . Maybe not .
Tim Mooney
As an Archy, I have had people come in with a complete design (in their minds). Most of the time this design was never built. Keep an open mind, listen to the archy, and if you don't agree say so. The really most important step is hiring an architect that you like and is on your wave length. You will get a better living environment. If you can get the contractor and architect to work together you will get all of your dreams (or as close to possible on your budget).
This is still a testy topic. I will try to avoid where someone lives.
Drywall return windows. Not to bad if you use a wood stool.
There is the furred down hallway for the savings of duct runs.
Popcorn texture is the cheapest way to finish a ceiling but has minuses
Cut down on electrical to minimal standards.
Group all plumbing
A 20 yr roof gets you in cheap and lets you recover every 15 years till you get 3 layers. Thats a long time .
Over hang is a pretty good expense to a house , but it may be needed depending ,.....
1 1/2 stories offer the cheapest "expensive house " , but they are not as functional.
Carpet wall to wall in the beginning and then a change later on after the payment is easier to make.
The toilet to go saves a little .
Windows are up to you because it can be a savings or you can sink the farm .
I have been able to get by with cheap cabinets in rentals , I suspect I could take much better care of them.
Mis matched paint offers quite a bit of savings and also I mix drywall mud in the first coat.
Thrift stores are another big savings and the junk center at every lumber yard .
I build my own trusses but we wont talk about that here .
MDF is good for what ails ya . I have read articles on making trim out of it . Cheap to finish.
Vinyl is cheap and its looked at the same .
Try to do the work your self and dont quit your day job .
Now with those things said , often times the cheapest are the worst in savings over the long haul. But if you are building specs , you have no choice as its war.
Tim Mooney
"I build my own trusses but we wont talk about that here."
You KNEW I was keeping an eye on you, huh ???Bumpersticker: Next time you wave at me, use more than one finger please.
Hey Boss, been waiting on you to chime in-
Any comments to someone in the early design stages about what truss designs are the most "cost effective"?
Are there certain gable widths and/or pitch combos that cause prices to start to go up exponentially? (for standard style and for scissor type?)
At what size are they no longer manageable by a crew and a crane MUST be used?
I would figure that trusses are one of those things that beat out rafters in terms of overall cost and efficiency on many designs, but not all.
Your thoughts?Steelkilt Lives!
"I would figure that trusses are one of those things that beat out rafters in terms of overall cost and efficiency on many designs..."
Of course they are. Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably a communist or communist sympathizer.............(-:
Wiuth trusses, there isn't any one thing that makes them cost more. But here are a few things that will hopefully make sense:
1. Piggyback trusses cost a lot more. By piggyback, I mean a truss that's too tall to be built and shipped in one piece. Some plants will build trusses up to almost 14' tall, while others can only build up to 12' or so. And some states require wide load permits and escorts for wide stuff. Ask your local manufacturer about their limitations and laws. Don't forget to allow for extra lumber and labor to apply purlins and caps in the field.
2. Low quantity = high cost, high quantity = low cost. The more profiles you have the more it costs. A house with a coffer in the master bedroom, vault in the family room, sloped ceilings in the kitchen, etc. is gonna cost big bucks. (Just a couple of each truss type) One with a straight series of flat bottom chords will cost less.
3. The more cut up and difficult the house, the more the price will vary (percentage wise) from one fabricator to the next. Opinions on how to price difficult stuff varies a great deal from one place to the next, so the prices also vary. It's not unheard of for one fabricator to be double the price of another one on a cut up mess.
4. Don't ever put 'em on 16" centers. Takes almost double the number of trusses, and costs 40 to 50% more. Can't imagine a bigger waste of money.
Finally - Ask your regular truss supplier(s) what they charge a lot for. In some areas, they charge a lot for valley trusses. Others charge a bunch for gables. Some want to put OSB on the gables, while others don't and therefore charge a lot for it.
That's all I can think of fer now. My brain is pretty taxed today.......Bumpersticker: Back off! I'm not that kind of car.
Yes sir !
Tim Mooney
"I mix drywall mud in the first coat of paint"?
What's that, a typo?
Please elaborate.
C.
No typo.
Tim Mooney
Tim,
I'm with CW on this one, please elaborate. Why do you mix JC with the paint? What type of JC are you mixing in? How much / at what ratio do you do this mixture? I've been around for a while and this is the first time that I've heard this one...... gotta wonder if you're nuts or if I'm missing out on the best trick since sliced bread?!?!
Andy
Ive been using it for a long time to cover drywall . I mix mismatch paint with it so it costs about 1.50 per gallon for a first coat that will cover all the joints and bridge them to make a good looking wall. USG sells a product that costs quite a bit more that does the same thing but you can spray it .
Tim Mooney
So are you mixing the JC into the paint and painting it on (spraying) or are you mixing the paint into the JC as a tint and then troweling it on?
Again, which type of JC are you using? (ready mix, powder, setting vs. drying, etc.)
If I understand, you are doing this just with newly constructed walls that have fresh seams and tape?
If this is the first coat of mud, how well do subsequent coats adhere to an already painted surface? Or if this is the first coat of paint after the mud is done doesn't the paint appear gritty or sandy when finished?
I use it with a new application or one Im repairing . There is no advantage to use it on drywall that has already been painted unless it needs some help. Regular USG joint compound is what I use. You have a texture with it or just a wall covering of look alike paint thats smooth. The point to the whole thing is that it has solids to stay on top of the surface and its cheap. Leaves a quality job unlike paint alone.
Tim Mooney
Okay, I think I got ya now. Interesting concept for sure. I might have to give it an experiment on a "low profile" job one day.
I guess I'm just from the "over kill old school." If I think an existing surface won't hold paint, I will rough sand the whole thing, reskim/refloat the whole thing, finish sand, prime AND THEN paint. But then again, I have never had a rep for being the fastest or least expensive guy in the game, so maybe I could try something new?
Either way, thanks for the clarification.
Actually its from the high quality school. We dicussed this in depth in another thread . You might do a search. There was another who believed it was low tech I believe , but neither of you use the technigue. Actually there was a need to produce a product that did the same thing and USG answered. That product can be sprayed plus it costs alot . Should be what you are looking for in high tech , but it doesnt do any thing different in the end result.
Tim Mooney
Actually its from the high quality school. There was another who believed it was low tech I believe , but neither of you use the technigue.
I didn't say that it was low quality or low tech, just different and interesting. I'm always trying new methods and that's why I asked for more clarification in the first place. If something seems like it makes sense for my type of jobs, then I'm always game to give it a go. My stuff is typically historic based and they usually want the "full service" treatment / method. But if I can save 'em a few $$ with a new way, they certainly never argue (well almost never...)
Actually there was a need to produce a product that did the same thing and USG answered. That product can be sprayed plus it costs alot . Should be what you are looking for in high tech , but it doesnt do any thing different in the end result.
Just got off the phone with one of my buddies at USG corprorate in Chicago. He said that they had gotten feedback from the field that folks use your method with a reasonable degree of success. A couple of notes / cautions that he offered are:
1) The JC dilution / mixing method can produce texturing and uneven results. If you will be using a paint that is anything other than flat you may have problems.
2) The JC is formulated to harden (obviously) which can make a smooth paint job more difficult and actually cause seams to telegraph more through the finish coat since it basically takes like an additional layer of taping at those areas. Their product specifically designed for what you are talking about (a heavy solids primer) is called "Sheetrock Brand First Coat" and will remain flexible during application since it is latex/vinyl based just as normal paint is.
3) Since their stuff goes on like a true primer and can be tinted at any paint store, it will "seal" out most any joint telegraphing or rough pre-existing surfaces with consistent, dependable results. (the old axiom, you get what you pay for applies here)
Bottom line, seems like your way will work well and save cash (as you've already said) but you need to have a good surface to begin with and be careful with your mixing ratio to get satisfactory and consistent results and your are limited to flat texture paints (according to them). If it works for you (and obviously it does) then cool. I don't have an opinion either way, I was just curious to learn more since I hadn't heard of your method before.
Thanks for the suggestion / info.
p.s. When I said "low profile job" earlier, I just meant one that will allow me to experiment without a super picky HO looking over my shoulder every minute and micro-scrutinizing my work (not a "cheap" or "low tech" job, just flexible). I don't like to use a technique that is new to me on a situation where I know someone will be watching with a critical eye. If I've never tried it before, my chances of nailing it on the first attempt probably aren't great, so I pick and chose where and when I try new stuff.
Edited 3/12/2003 1:30:27 PM ET by andy
He gave you a good answer . I was just reinforceing the method as not only being cheap, but effective for the money . [actually it costs less ]
Now; If we dont mix any paint in the joint compound and roll it on the wall , then its not any different than a light texture . In fact it doesnt look like texture . It looks like its had several coats of paint . Whether you use that method or a first coat method, the work has to be pretty good. I use it on slick work, not rough texture work. Did he tell you how much his product costs ? Its a considerable expense in my area. But , if you have got customers that will pay for it then thats where I would be . I have specs and rentals that I have built. The dollar cost is my bottom line. In other words Im paying for my decisions. There is always a difference between that and working for a high dollar customer that has an open check book. When cost plus is done then why would you want you save any money? If you are in a bidding war , then you think three times before you write a spec for a bid. Lots of differences.
He is partly wrong about one thing. I would imagine why he said it is because he sells a product that is for what we are talking about." It will telegraph." Thats one reason I use it because it forms a bridge between the joints and the paper. On a sunlit wall , I will go an extra step and put a vinyl primer over the top of that if Im working on high dollar and then Ive got what he has to sell plus more.
The best result is to use the mud with out paint mixed in it , then cover the wall with vinyl primer. With an exellent finish job under it , it doesnt get any better than that . That would be high dollar that apartments dont get for example.
Tim Mooney
Have you given us a mix ration yet? One cup of mud per gallon? Got my curiousity up here!
Thats up to the person putting it on as it looks different .
I normally put a gallon of flat wall paint to a four gallon box of mud and thin to my liking.
Tim Mooney
Jim,
I don't know where you live in WI, but I notion that it gets quite cold and windy in the winters nearly everyplace in the state. My house is located up ontop of a hill with 80 plus acres of open field to the west and north. I put sliding windows in my (heated) workshop which faces west. Compared to the casements everywhere else, the sliders leak like crazy when the wind starts getting above 20mph as it does routinely for days at a time in the winter. During blizzards (40 to 50mph winds) I often find snow has penitrated through (if the heat is not on). Maybe it's just the brand I chose (Crestline) but all the other windows I bought from them work great. Asthetics are also important, I personally thing nearly any window looks better than a slider.
Jon
personally.. projecting from experience.. i don't think you can get the design right or even close until you are working on about your 3d home.... and by that time you are ready to downsize and build your retirement home..
and .. in no particular priority.. Andersen windows are great.. order 'em factory pre-finished.. stay away from sliders .. especially in your climate.. they are the draftiest.. casements are the tightest.. and double hungs are usually the best looking from an esthetic point..
boxes are the cheapest per sf... ( the "carpenter's square ") they are also the ugliest..
rooflines , overhangs, gables, dormers, siding.. and trim add character and beauty to a home.. what you save on const. cost , you sacrifice on appeal... and ultimatley.. resale value ( "curb appeal")...
which leads me to my two last points... the best value for your long term appreciation is pleasing design in a desireable neighborhood... location , location, location... and curb appeal..
a budget is one thing... but it's not everything,
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
In your situation, stockpiling goods may save you the most in the long run. Talk to builders and remodlers, go to thrift stores, talk to plumbing and electrical stores. Many places you can find cheaper, surplus, or used items. You may be able to pick up dented exterior doors for cheap. Pick them up and repair them. Just don't get too carried away, our you'll have a garage full of things you don't end up using. Buy selectively, or just look until you're ready to start building.
Put in cheaper or used light fixtures, then upgrade as you find better fixtures for a good price.
A stacked house, one with a basement or 2nd story will get you the most square footage at the least cost. But you lose some handicapped accessibility, which is good for all of us, as anyone can get hurt and be on crutches ect. for awhile.
A simple roof makes lots of sense. Spend a little extra and add some storage trusses so you can use some attic space to store things. Lots of extra utility for small cost.
Put radiant tubing in your concrete downstairs. Fairly inexpensive when done in the initial pour. Plumb it to a central utility room. Later, you can add a boiler to use it to heat the basement. Get the tubing tested by a professional before concrete is poured. Also install any needed plumbing for a bath, sump pump, ect. in the initial pour.
Stack your bathrooms so the plumbing is easier. Put your water heater close.
Minimise hallways. They waste lots of space if the house isn't laid out well. One short straight hallway to isolate bedrooms maybe, but L shaped halls are generally huge space wasters.
Most things are personality and lifestyle driven. Do you need a woodshop area. Space to store a boat? 9' ceilings cost more, but do they fit your style better? Can you forgo the crown molding and decorative woodwork? Can you add it later?
Build a house you'll love to live in, don't scrimp so much you have major regrets.
If you want a recreation space or workshop or studio: Consider building that space later as part of a detached garage. Such an arrangement helps keep taxes lower.
As someone else noted, pay close attention to financing! Most of the time it's likely to cost as much for financing as it costs to build. Some who read/post here will remember when financing cost as much as four times the cost of building.
In our culture the current mode is to assume that no one will live in any certain home for more than a few years (and it's usually true). If you are going to build for retirement/"forever", then resale value doesn't count for much. That said, I've seen a number of people build their "forever" place and sell it within three years.
Along with energy efficiency, how far is it to work, shopping, health care, etc? A primary cost of housing is getting there from wherever else you have to be. I live in a rural area and lots of people seem to forget that it costs three times as much to get to and from a home that's 45 miles from town as it does to commute to a home 15 miles from town. What do you think that gas is going to cost in 10 years? 20?
If possible, acquire your building site at least one year before you build. Way to many homes get built without considering the microclimate of the site. (A rancher told me that the best way to site a home on a piece of land around here, where everything is open range, is to go out in a storm and find the cattle.)
Congrats on starting the process early! and good fortune to you.
Average Joe says:
I'll wait here while YOU go wrestle the wild alligator.
I'd have never thought of that, but it's dang smart. Cows will find the place that has the least wind problem everytime. Building a house where they stand in a storm could save you a bundle in energy costs over the life of the house.
Old wisdom. Reminds me of the worksite on the farm where a bunch of guys were standing around trying to figure out how to place a grain screw through a small silo that was in the way. Let's see, if the grain screw enters the building at the bottom here, where do we cut the hole so the other end can go out the roof.
Eventually an old ranch hand drove up in his pickup. Strolls over, what you doing? They tell him. He says you want the screw to enter here right? You want it at this angle right? Ok.
Walks back to his pickup, gets a 30-30. Walks over, lays down, sites in at the right angle and pulls the trigger. Bingo, a hole at the entry and exit point. I'd never have thought of that either. It pays to listen to the old guys with the experience. Often they're much smarter then the college professor types.
Some good ideas in this thread.
Making overhangs shorter (or simpler) decreases the length of those expensive, long rafters. In the South, the shade of a long overhang may be needed to keep overhead costs low ('leastways in my neck of the woods). How to get both? Porches; farmer's, Arts & Crafts, Bungalow, whatever--the construction is lighter by definition (and we can get rain water even further from the building foundations).
If you are required to have brick veneer, check into the cultured stone products; same look, much less expensive. (Ok, the masons all hate the "fake" material, I know, I know . . . ) Here in Central Texas, having a face brick veneer costs a lot. First, the foundation needs extra support (not helpful in expansive soils). Second, the thermal mass of the brick is on the "wrong" side of the wall--not good for life cycle costs. Third, it's expensive (that's why most HfH houses are clad in vinyl).
Plan to expand. Trim the plan down to its minimum. Now stop, and look at it like a renovation or add-on. Design in some of the features that the 'additions' will need. (Now, I'll admit to having a little bit of a bias--I like the character of a house that has been added on to, and have been known to add features to a new house just to get that character "back.")
Separate that garage! You can save some dollars in not having to have the whole garage-to-house connection (not needing vents, sealing, metal doors, etc.) Another option is to build the garage as a carport "now." Then (or if) when time permits, it can be 'upgraded.' Plan the separated buildings--make sure that any utilities they need are planned for up front (a bigger panel will cost more, now, but less than putting it in later).
Do not scrimp on electrical or plumbing. Get the best (or plan for it) now. Even if is just 'dead ended' it is far easier to get installed before it is covered up than later.
Have to go coordinate some subs--more humble opinions later :)
I don't agree that it's cheaper (Or a good idea) to detach a garage. What you might save in using a rated door, you wil spend in adding extra footings, adding another wall, a sidewalk, and siding on the 2 walls.
And who the heck wants a detached garage anyway?Having sex is like playing bridge. If you don't have a good partner, you'd better have a good hand.
Attached garages are a love/hate situation. Taking the groceries (or small chilluns) dry from car to house is definitely a good thing.
However, in my little part of Texas, it has repercussions. The garage is a different span and slab condition from the rest of the house. In our expansive soils, foundations have to be flexible as is--adding a complicated 'joint' adds complexity to the house. And, in general, complexity equals cost.
Ok, I am not all against attached garages, they have a place. Down around Austin, they take advantage of the currently popular 9/12 & 12/12 roofs to create a "Texas Basement" (a semi-finished storage space over the garage). Downside is that in Austin, they now require powered ventilation for garage spaces if attached to a residence. (We are starting to see fireproof sheetrock on both sides of the common wall, and no "fire path" penetrations in the wall, in the bigger cities--not less expensive.)
The thread is about finding ways to get more for less. It was just a thought.
Sounds like you have some uniques situations that add expense to an attatched garage.
Here in Idaho, an attatched garage is cheap space. You pour a footer, poor the slab and driveway, put walls up and extend the house roof. Much cheaper then a detatched structure.
Curious if these extra expenses exist where the initial poster lives also.
Jim, If this is your house, my advice is not to scrimp. I build for a living, and I've also built 2 houses for my family. First one, I cheaped out. So much recycling, I never really got it finished.
2nd one, I'm in it now, and here are things I kick myself about or pat myself on the back for. I cheaped out on the windows. I've got a lot of light for the money, but they could've been more efficent (and made better).
Stacked plumbing, I'm sure it saves a little, but with PEX and studer vents, I don't think it's that big a deal.
Electrical, put 3 ways at any room w/ 2 or more entrances.
Stock cabinets, you can design your spaces around them.
Hardi plank siding, holds paint and knocks down your fire insurance.
And another thing about cows, they take the path of least resistance, and an old timer told me to follow the cow paths if wanted to put in a road. I did it and voted for the next cow running for road commisioner;-)
Hey, it's your house, do you want to live with the bottom line every day, or what? EliphIno!
" In our expansive soils, foundations have to be flexible as is--adding a complicated 'joint' adds complexity to the house."
Didn't know that - I can see where it would be a problem.
Funny how different things are in different states/areas. Around here, I'd say 999 out of a thousand new houses have atached garages.The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag. [David Letterman]
Climate, density, setback and zoning requirements all influence the attached vs. detached garage decision. There's also a historic/traditional component to it. Around here, older neighborhoods have more detached garages, probably because those newfangled horseless carriages were thought to be big explosion/fire hazards, and partly because the traditional motive power they replaced smelled like a horse because it was a horse. New technologies usually start out trying to look a lot like the old technologies they replace.
Today it's mostly the folks with the big acerage on the outskirts who build detached. New construction in old neighborhoods is almost always multi-story over parking, because the setbacks make any other design impossible.
-- J.S.
Great advice from everyone -
I want to start off by saying that we will build a home that makes us happy. The goal of this thread is to seek out valuable tips that many of you may take as "givens" but that we may not think of as we plan things out. When faced with a decision as to do A or B and having no preference either way, we will pick the choice that is the most "efficient" (in the use of money, time, materials, )
On the garage issue, here in the midwest I believe that new construction gets attached garages. My mom lives in the South where carports are still not that unusual in certian price brackets. Use the word carport in Wisconsin and I think I might get a look like I grew a second head (wouldn't be ther first time)
Maybe someone can answer this one: What is the req'd/recommended depth of the foundation of a simple detached 2 car garage here in Southern Wisconsin? I know the house footing has to be 48" below grade, but is it the same for the garage? If it only requires that I scrape off the topsoil (about 12 to 16 inches around here) then detached looks more and more attractive for many reasons BUT ONLY IF I could then connect the two structures with a 6' wide by 10-12' long enclosed space of some sort. What would be the footing requirements of that connection?
This forum rocks!
Steelkilt Lives!
Edited 3/11/2003 8:26:37 PM ET by Jim
a big money saver if you are using circular type windows is to buy a sheet of wiggle board and rip it for the extention jambs. After its installed smooth it out with Minwax epoxy wood filler then sand.
I've saved hundreds of dollars doing this.
Be a wiggle
Namaste
a"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"And who the heck wants a detached garage anyway?"
I do. It keeps the shop noise out of the house, absolutely no danger of fumes contaminating the house, and we can hide the garage behind the house so the curb view is much nicer. With the garage in the backyard, items that get used there, such as the barbeque and the lawn mower, are easily stored and accessible. If I were designing this setup, there would also be a breezeway to attach the 2 structures for sun and rain protection.
But I don't think this type of construction would be less expensive in my area. You have more concrete for the extra wall of footings, as well as more concrete for the longer driveway. There is another 2x6 wall to construct. Insurance wise, the garage gets better coverage if it is an attached structure. Detached counts as an outbuilding and you have to pay extra to get sufficient coverage of outbuildings (go figure).
I always enjoy this topic!
I could think of many suggestions, but I'll start with three of the biggies:
1) Windows; avoid scrimping on the overall amount of glazing sq. footage. Light and views are good for your mental health and resale value. However, not all windows need to be operable. If you need a bank of 6 in one big room maybe only two need to be "open-able". Saves money and energy costs via fewer leaks.
2) May not be practical for a lot of folks, but you can save 20-30% on framing lumber if you buy in late winter (now) rather than July/August. Right now, we have 2x4 studs for $1.80 and 2x12 for $.90/ft. In August it'll be $2.20 & $1.15, respectively.
3) Keep the mortgage low and pay it off early. NOTHING you do nickle and diming materials will come close to the long term money savings here. We live well on little income because we have no mortgage. Everyone else we know does, and they're working all the time just to stay afloat.
good luck
Jim,
As a professional framer, I'd like to briefly expand on two points brought up by you and others that I have knowledge about.
1. Rectangular construction: This is true; as a framer I know firsthand just how much more time, effort, and materials are needed to build all the "offsets" in a "cut-up" house. There are many alternative styles that are both functional as well as aesthetically pleasing while being simpler and more economical to construct.
2. Simple rooflines: Although much of this is dictated by the overall design of the house itself, IMHO homes with few valleys and rooflines (planes) look more pleasing to the eye, as well as being much less expensive (labor and materials-wise) to build. "Cut-up" roofs often make an appealing elevation look cluttered. And while I'm on the subject, think about how steep the pitch of your roof really needs to be. While some styles and plans dictate having steep roofs (i.e., a 1 1/2 story), an unneccesarily steep roof again adds a lot of unneccesary expense and materials. 7 or 8 in 12 is about as steep as is appropriate for most contemporary home designs. About the only benefit I can think of to having a steep roof is that here in the South it keeps hot attic air farther away from the ceilings, which leads to a bit cooler living areas.
Please feel free to e-mail me if you have any other framing-specific questions.
-Captain Strap
If you are in the planning stages , start makeing your monthly payments now !! $500 a month for the next 2-4 years will make a big dent in the interest that you will pay . The interest that you earn will be a bonus.
> 2. Simple rooflines:
Not only is the simple roof easier to build, far more important every extra valley and extra transition is a potential leak. My grandfather used to say "The more there is, the more can go wrong."
As to the slope of the roof, steeper may cost a little more in materials, but the steeper it is the better it drains, the less it leaks, and the longer it lasts. 30 years ago, I had a couple buildings side by side. One was flat roof with parapet walls, and it leaked no matter how often we tried to fix it. The other was 18/12 wood shake, so full of holes you could read a newspaper in the attic during the day. But that one never leaked a drop. If you're not in snow country, something in the 5/12 to 7/12 range might be a good compromise between cost and weathertightness. If you are in snow country, BTW, perhaps it would be cheaper to move to a milder climate, less demanding on the building to protect you from the weather.
-- J.S.
I've been thinking about what I said earlier about a detached garage footing. Trying to do it half-a$$ will only cause problems in the long run. I will probably go with a proper attached garage, but the thing that I will have to work out was touched on in the last entry:, complicated roof lines.
I will play with a few layout ideas and drawings and see where it gets me.
However, back to the topic of the thread - any more ideas? I may consolidate the list into a single entry and re-post a new thread to keep it clear.
Thanks again for everyone's inputSteelkilt Lives!
I don't know what your skill level is but if you can do it all then do it all. Labor and workmans comp are a huge chunk of the budget and if you do the work yourself then you can splurge on materials like windows or flooring because you install them yourself. Expect to take more than a year and maybe two to build a modest house by yourself. If you are unskilled then you need to hire good help and forget getting it cheap. Good help is not cheap. You will pay dearly for a quality home and if you are uskilled and not rich then forget it and buy a crackerbox in a subdivision.
I like 12/12 roofs. Everything is 45 degrees and the long side is proportional to the square root of 2. Easy to figure and build and beautiful to look at. Steep pitches can be walked up with a few roof jacks and a ladder. Exposed rafter tails look good if they are 3x8 minimum and 2' centers and you save time not soffiting and installing facia. Stack your own roof. With a 12/12 you have a bonus room in the attic. If you are an amatuer roof framer then you probably should go with trusses and forego the bonus room.
Don't hire an architect if you know what you want. They often design non builder friendly structures. More often they are too whimsical and more trouble than they are worth. You may need a structural engineer if your building dept requires it.
Work hard and put in long days.
Only draw the money you need from the construction loan as needed. Don't keep a huge wad in the bank while you pay interest.
Recycle old wood. Some salvaged wood can be had for a song and with the help of a cats paw and a power planer you can make it beautiful again. Shop around a lot for materials. Scrounge as much as you can. Save every block until the framing is completely done. Cut the long pieces first. Do all the blocking last. Your scrap pile should look like nibbles and dust. Wasting wood is a sin. Be generous to your help but be intolerant of waste.
Above all, Do it right the first time. Design for curb appeal. Beauty is worth 25% more. If you don't get unsolicited compliments then you are doing it wrong.
I will probably do a lot of the work myself, but not all. At minimum, I want one extra set of hands for many of the stages of construction. Not sure yet who that will be but I will be happy to pay for it.
The planning on this is going to be insane since I have lots of time to do it. I am going to do a lot of detail drawings ahead of time and figure my materials as closely as I possibly can. I will take my drawing set to a pro, but I hope to have so much done that it does not take them a lot of time to review. I like your description of a good trim pile "Nibbles and Dust", I think is what your said. That is my hope; I want to design around standard materials dims when possible.
I am a little surprised it took this long for someone to say:
"Don't hire an architect if you know what you want. They often design non builder friendly structures. More often they are too whimsical and more trouble than they are worth."
I thought that would have come up earlier, and an archy beat you to it by talking about the value that they can bring to the table. The way I see it, there's good and bad in every bunch - it just takes research to find the good ones.
I think the trick is to have curb appeal and whimsy and the home of your dreams, but to do it wisely. Small details can go a long way - to break the bank OR add just the right amount of cool for not a lot of cash.
The design I currently have in mind will have a front porch about 8' to 10' deep by 24 wide with the gable centered over the door (the first floor will be 2' above grade on that end of the house). The outer corners of the porch will be carried by concrete piers bored and poured at the time of the foundation. The porch may not happen right away, but the plan will be there and allowances made from the get-go. I was thinking about framing that porch roof using an exposed timber frame truss, big purlins back to the house and beadboard face down for the cieling. I will probably scrounge for the wood (old barn beams most likely) and do it in the shop. This will add tons of character.
Exposed rafter tails are not my thing, but I was planning on saving time and $ on the soffits by having the truss design be ready to "box in" with minimum extra effort.
Thanks for your input.
Steelkilt Lives!
Edited 3/13/2003 6:23:42 AM ET by Jim