I’ve got a (I think) reputable plumber plumbing our new house with Rehau brand PEX, and I’m worried about the number of unnecessary fittings and splices that they are putting inside the stud and ceiling joist bays. They are using ell fittings for turns instead of just bending the 1/2″ PEX, even though there is plenty of room for bends of approprate radius. I trust the PEX tubing a lot more than I trust the connections. I will be living in this house for the rest of my life–should I request that the sections with excessive fittings be replaced with unbroken lengths?
Edited 5/7/2002 10:22:42 AM ET by ANCHORBEAM
Replies
Does seem like the PEX is not being used to its best advantage. And, like any plumbing, it should be pressure-tested before the walls are closed up. The plumber may be using ells to reduce the length of tubing to be pulled. It is a nuisance to deal with an 85 feet piece of PEX all looped around itself but easy to run 20' at a time. He/she might also be using short lengths from the end of a roll or from another job. Or maybe he/she is in fear of kinking the PEX but doesn't know or doesn't bother to use the metal supports for tight, no-joint bends in the PEX.
Insist on the pressure test. If you really want no joints in the wall, you'll be paying for all new labor and materials - only the drilled holes will be reused. Probably use a different plumber on the next house, right?
Yes, they're using 20' lengths instead of a roll, but that's not the real problem. The problem is that they won't take the 30 seconds necessary to analyze the situation and come up with the best way to run the pipe. They just throw ells and tees at it. You would think it would be cheaper and quicker for them to use a few more feet of tubing to minimize the number of fittings. They stick short lengths of PEX through the floor from the fixtures above, then come downstairs and hook up additional pipe to them. As far as using another plumber next time--there isn't going to be a next time unless this house burns down. Unfortunately, in central North Carolina the building business has been so fantastic for so long that ALL of the subcontractors get away with murder. These folks have not been paid yet, so we're going to have a little discussion about replacing some of the more chopped-up runs. BTW, the inspectors here require pressure testing. I'm more worried about leaks 10 years from now.
A friend of mine had her old hot and cold water pipes replaced with PEX in the crawl space beneath her kitchen. At one fitting beneath the center of the kitchen floor there developed a very small leak that released a fine mist of water up onto the underside of the kitchen floor. After about a year, the underlayment started to swell and eventually created a small mound in the middle of the kitchen floor. The entire kitchen floor had to be removed and replaced. The plumbing contractor had to pay for replacing the floor, but my friend was without a kitchen for nearly two months...
Howdy Achorbeam, I live in Chapel Hill, and work as building subcontractor, and can't get away with anything, no matter how hard I try! I'm pretty sure your plumbing will hold, if the fittings are properly crimped...even though it does seem to be defeating the ease and time saving features of a PEX installation. Sometimes old habits like installing copper are hard to die...
Where are you located? I might know of some some folks that can help you out...
BB
As a do-it-yourselfer who is very proud of how his home is coming out, and rather irritated with all the "let the professionals do it" comments I have heard, I'll have to say, it just makes me laugh.
I guess I have very high expectations of myself, and probably of others, but if that were my house...I know exactly what I would do.
If its not homeruns, with pex, it seems to me its not right.
But, I'm just the do-it-yourselfer...
PS---> Sorry for the rant...I just have to laugh. And the bank will give them all the money they need, they are professionals!
Actually, I think the bank gives homeowners the money, then they give it to the professionals. I hope you don't think I am condoning shoddy work solely because it is done by a "professional". I'm a homeowner, too, and I run and work in a carpentry business which specializes in very fussy trim work. When I built my own house, I subbed out things that didn't make sense for me to do (but by code I could have), and plumbing was one. My house is PEXxed , and far from all home runs, nor would I expect that unless I spec'ed that. I trusted a pro, and a friend, to give me a good job at a fair price. That's what I got, and much more quickly and cheaper than I could ever do. Mine would have been pretty, albeit covered up, but I'm sure it wouldn't be any more effective. Properly installed PEX fittings are gonna last, no matter how many joints there are. Glad you got a good laugh, but, remember you got that from a professional.
We're 10 miles north of Durham. Regarding the "getting away with murder" comment: I guess my problem is that I've read Fine Homebuilding cover to cover for 20 years. I expect things to be done right, and have been completely discouraged and disappointed with the performance of the tradespeople I have interacted with. I know there are some capable contractors out there (somewhere), but either I have been incredibly unlucky or they are few and far between. Dumb looks or "that's the way we always do it" are the usual responses when I point out perceived deficiencies. No, years of reading don't make me an expert, but I'm not an idiot either.
Edited 5/8/2002 10:48:33 AM ET by ANCHORBEAM
Bahama's got some pretty areas, and it's close to Duke, if one was to care about that...:) I'm curious... are you the GC? Did you spec the number of joints in the piping? What other trades have you had trouble with and what were they? Durham Co. inspections dept. is pretty tough. Thanks for the email, but I think from your homeowner perspective, this forum could benefit from your expectations and observations about the building process. I know I would. And, the offer still stands to hook you up with folks I know are good.
Well, since you asked...Yes, I am the GC, but not because I want to be. We originally hired a "custom home builder" out of Chapel Hill that was recommended to us by the architect that charged us $2000 to trace our plans and put his stamp on them. Like fools, we had a cost plus contract and thought that the builder was experienced enough to accurately estimate what the actual costs would be. Here are the things that led to his firing:
1. Gee, there's a lot of rocks in the ground. Instead of bringing in the appropriate equipment, the original GC had his guy piddle around for two weeks digging the footings with his backhoe. Footings ended up $10,000 over budget. In retrospect, we should have fired the guy then, but we were excited about finally having a house...
2. Original GC didn't bother to check the foundation for square. Niether did the masons. Back corner of house out of line by 4 1/2". His framers noticed it while framing deck, didn't tell anybody, and framed deck to match. Masons meanwhile bricked up to sill level. After discovering this we had to demolish the brick wall (about 6' tall) on that side of the house, scab tapered framing members to the rim joist to cantilever it out, rebuild the brick wall, and infill behind the brick with rubble and mortar.
3. The framers "forgot it was going to be a brick house" (there were cubes of brick all over the place) and made all of the roof overhangs 4" too short. I later had to scab on extensions all around the roof perimeter and had to do days of extra work to get the fascia widths consistent.
4. The framers couldn't manage to construct a 12/12 pitch roof. They framed and raised the gable ends first, then installed all of the intermediate rafter pairs. When I came home from work I immediately noticed that the gable end peaks were 3 or 4 inches lower than the rafter peaks. When I asked why, I got the CLASSIC (oh, so classic. I wish I had snapped a picture to post here) dumb looks. Well, I guess they forgot to check the gable peaks for square. I had to cut them a stack of long, tapered 2x4s so they could shim up the gable ends to the correct pitch. That was fun.
5. The framers framed the main stairwell 3 feet too short. Duh, we misread the blueprints. I walked in and immediately saw that there was no way a set of stairs was going to fit in there. They didn't notice anything wrong. Rip it out and do it over.
6. The house has 5 doghouse dormers. The framers framed the roofs so that the rafter ends rested on the 1/2" roof sheathing with no support below. Got the classic "We always do it that way. It will be fine", with the stongly implied "You're just a homeowner. What the hell do you know?". Well, I'm also an engineer and I'm not an idiot. I made them install supports beneath the rafter ends.
Those are just SOME of the framing highlights. After that crew was dismissed I hired two more sets of carpenters to help me finish the framing, and they were as bad as the first. Nothing plumb or level. Couldn't figure out how to frame the hipped roof on the porch. Used triple 2x10 girders along eaves of one porch, doubled 2x12 girder on other porch. Gee, that will look nice. I ripped out the 2x12s and replaced w/ 2x10s. Very pleasant job, 15 feet up in the air. When I was replacing the tar paper that immediately blew off because they used 15# with staples instead of the 30# with button caps that I requested, I found the roof and wall sheathing was nailed off completely randomly. I asked them if they knew what the code nail spacing was, and they couldn't tell me what the code says. I added probably 2000 nails to the sheathing with my nailer during the course of the framing. Found long stretches of un-nailed sheathing on the roof that they just forgot to do. Now I just recently noticed that the stairs they framed have to be ripped out and re-done because the rises are so inconsistant they don't meet code. I'll do it myself, as I wouldn't even consider having them back on my property.
And then the masons. Ah, masons. I don't mean to insult the good masons that must be out there somewhere, but based on my limited experience with North Carolina masons there is no lower form of life on the planet. The first crew, hired by the original GC, is the one that forgot to check the foundation for square. They also got the piers in the wrong places and put the foundation vents in one course too high. They also consistently failed to keep their strings tight, so every long run of block and brick that they did has a sag in the middle. The second crew, hired by me to do the brick veneer, were Mexicans. They were very hard workers and very pleasant people to have around. Unfortunately, they knew NOTHING about masonry, even though they had been doing it for years. After I got them started, I ran an errand and came back to find them attaching the brick ties to the walls with BUTTON CAPS. "No, no, no, I said, see all these boxes of galvanized ring shank nails next to the boxes of ties?" Then came time to install the flashing for the weep holes. They started nailing it on OVER the 30# tar paper. "No, no, no, I said, you tuck the flashing UNDER the tar paper so the water will run out the weep holes." This was an entirely new concept to them. I cringe at the thought of what they have done on other houses when there was no one supervising.
The last mason we hired was instructed to build a brick chimney for our wood stove. I come by during the process and ask him "Why are you packing mortar around the flue? The code says to leave an air space around it for expansion." Code, what code? "We always pack them solid." "Well, I want you to leave a 1" air space." I come back later and they are about 10 feet higher up. I look down from above, and there is an airspace alright, but the flue sections are wobbling all over because they didn't support them periodically with angled bricks. I had to show them how that was done. Totally new concept to them. I also asked them to put refractory cement in the joints between flue sections. The boss replied (exact quote) "Re-what now?" He had never even heard of it. I stuck a pail of it in his hand and said "Just use it." Meanwhile, the boss is fuming about having done this for 40 years and to just leave them alone.
Well, you asked for examples. There are a lot more that I've repressed. So, now we're at the plumbing stage and I see all these unnecessary joints on the PEX. The saga continues. Thanks for listening.
Edited 5/8/2002 10:51:59 AM ET by ANCHORBEAM
Man oh man, I had to ask...and you haven't even had your rough-in inspections yet! You are right about the masons in this area, we have an overabundance of sloppy ones, but, on the other hand, I do know some who are very, very good, and also very , very busy.
At least, it sounds like you are finally on top of things, good luck, and keep posting progress reports.
BB
Man, Anchorbeam, that post belongs in the hall of fame. Too bad that most people won't read it because of the original PEX title. As WJC used to say, "I feel your pain."
Hmmmm. Mebbe I oughta post it separately under a new topic.
Well...
I hereby nominate that post for the Hall of Shame. Seeing as we don't have one, how about "Great Moments in Building History"?
It's a doozy, Anchorbeam, and I can't believe that the cops haven't arrested you and tossed you in jail...for murdering all of the sunzabichiz.
Man, oh man.
Edited 5/9/2002 10:33:48 PM ET by Mongo
Another great post can be found in the Energy discussion under "junction boxes" 19954.10 by 4LORN1. I highly recommend it. I'll link to it if I can figure out how.
http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=19954.10
Ben
Anchorbeam:
Don't post things like that. It scares the hell out of me. ;o)
I have a lot of respect for true craftsman, and, like any industry, there are a lot of them, combined with a lot that are not.
I haven't done anything major to my house yet, but the biggest problem I have with some of the tradespeople is that they vehemently disagree with each other...which makes it very hard for the unititated to really figure out what the answer is. Sometimes it's an either-or thing...sometimes one 'professional' is just completely wrong.
Anyways, my favorite example of bad craftsmanship is a friend's parent's house. They spent $300,000+ on a brand new 2 1/2 story house in the burbs. It looks nice, but when you walk in, the front door opens about 2/3 the way open before banging into the stair case. Oops. Always makes for fun when a group of people are invited over ;o)