Per the suggestion of the board, I’ll be building my new deck out of Ipe. I’ve never worked with the stuff before, but the stuff appears to be pretty tough. Is there anything special I should look for in a carbide blade? I’d be looking at two blades, one for the circular saw and one for the power miter box.
Second question is for the deck screwing. I’ll be blind fastening the deck from below using the Deckmaster system. Supposedly you do not need to predrill (except the ends) so I’m figuring on needing a pretty powerful drill. There will be 3,000 screws for this deck, most driven at a awkward angle. I currently have a variable speed 2500 rpm drill that I’ve used for deck screwing in the past. Because the drill doesn’t support the screw like a screw gun I’ve always felt it turned way too fast. Because of the quantity of material to be fastened and the hardness of it, I was thinking of buying a slow speed screw gun. Most deck screw guns seem to be turning around 2500rpm which is exactly what I have now. I found a gun by Metabo that turns only 900 rpm. There are also several guns which are designed for Tek screws. Both of these guns seem to disengage at a torque setting instead of a depth setting, although the Metabo does mention a depth setting adjustment. Is this the gun that I want? As a matter of fact, what kind of screw gun do I want?
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Replies
I have not used deckmaster but I seriously doubt that you'll be able to fasten without pre drilling, Ipe is just too hard. Also, the screws are probably stainless, and stainless is soft. That in combination with the Ipe, you'll be breaking and stripping many, many screws. I would just plan on pre drilling and make sure you have plenty of drill bits, you'll break a few of those too.
A circ is fine for any long rips you need to make, any sharp quality circ blade would be fine, I like the coated freuds they sell at HD, I think they are $10 or something. I would not cross cut with the circ though, Ipe is dense but the grain is fine and will splinter a little like cedar. The miter saw will make a much cleaner cut, although more cumbersome to use, its worth it. Let the saw cut the wood slowly, don't force it.
If you need any other cuts(jigsaw), you'll be fine with sharp blades and going slowly.
Make sure you use anchorseal on the ends of the boards and I like to keep the original color so I use penofin or messmers UV to keep it protected.
Here's a few sites that may help with info and links.
http://ipe-wood.com/tigerwood.html#compare
http://www.coastalforestproducts.com/product/product.htm
I've used Deckmaster with PT pine and a Sioux close quarter drill was a godsend. This is the same as the Milwaukee. Didn't have clutch, just ran them down. Having you grip right behind the chuck gives great control.
I don't think you'll be able to just power the Deckmaster SS screws into the unbelievably hard Ipe. Look at a Vix bit and use a two drill setup.
An impact driver might work and the shorter body would be welcome.
To cover the glint of the SS Deckmaster in the gaps between boards I used brown flashing pieces. Deckmaster suggested painting, but the metal was so oily the prep would take too long with iffy results.
Well, I'm not on a coastal area so we'll be using the painted system. This should eliminate the glare issue. Actually, it's Deckmaster themselves that saying you don't need to predrill. I suspect the screws are painted steel because they won't be exposed. What size Vix bit were you using? Yep, the lumberyard is a really good one, so they included the Anchorseal and Penofin in their material quote.
Certified boat fetish.
I used the painted Deckmaster system with both Ipe and Massaranduba (aka Brazilian Redwood), which has similar properties to Ipe. I used a two drill set up : variable speed and torque cordless DeWalts -- one for drilling and one for driving the screws. I only pre-drilled the ends and sides (anything closer than about 3/4" to the side of the 5/4x6 boards). Be sure to set the depth on the drill bit (or mark it with tape) so you don't thru-drill the board.I also had someone stand on the board directly over the spot I was working to help keep the screw from lifting the wood up. I put screws in every viable spot in the boards, although in retrospect, I would not put the screws in the middle of the board, to avoid cupping the board. Even though the boards were put on "outside up" (with the outer growth ring side of the board up to reduce natural cupping of the board), the relatively stronger pull of that center screw (vs the outer edge screws) resulted in some minor cupping in a few cases. When you consider that you can put up to 4 screws in every board at each joist, reducing that to 3 or even 2 isn't going to cause problems, especially with joists 16" OC.Eric
the deckmaster screws are #10, so a #10 vix bit
or simply drill through a piece of wood leaving to bit length you need exposed which is cheaper and less prone to clogging
I used Deckmaster with ipe and had to pre-drill. I also had to get high quality screws from a fastener store, the screws I got from Home Depot were so soft the head would strip before I could drive them in. I also used the Milwalkee close quarter drill. There is no way you will get a screw into ipe without pre-drilling. I also found it helpful to clamp each board down prior to screwing into it to attach it to the Deckmaster. Six or Seven years later, I only have a couple of squeaky spots in the deck. I have walked on other Deckmaster built decks that squeak with every step. I think clamping everything tight is the reason.
What do they say about construction adhesive? I use that on decks to bridge any irregularities and help with the bond strength.
My understanding is that the Deckmaster is coming as a kit which includes the fasteners. How much of an issue is squeeking? If it is an issue, maybe the CA is a solution. Deckmaster's website did mention clamping the boards before setting the fasteners.
With Ipe, do you guys still space the boards or is there enough shrinkage that spacing isn't necessary?
Certified boat fetish.
I space the size of an 8d nail. It barely shrinks so the gap stays nearly the same
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I like the CA but don't know how easy it would be with deckmaster.
Look at this link. http://www.ironwoods.com/ResInstall.asp
There is very little shrinkage, certainly nothing like pressure treated. You need to space the boards, if you don't you'll have problems.
For the screws, like piffin said, the ss are the best choice. The ipe will last a very long time and the pressure treated is more of a problem than the older CCa. Deckmaster probably has ss available, or you could buy the set up without screws and get them from mcfeely's, swansecure or a bunch others.
" I suspect the screws are painted steel because they won't be exposed."Not sure I understand this - do you mean unexposed to weather or to the eye?
They will certainly be exposed to weather.Another question that comes to my mind is what is the framing material. The new ACQ PT will eat up steel and rust it out in months in wet areas
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Well this is off the Deckmasters site. The product comes with the screws and is listed as being ACQ compliant.
Item # DMP100-100Deckmaster Powder Coated, Composites less than 1 1/8" or any hollow core. Hardwood decking min. of 3/4" - Contractor Pack
Features:
When using the Deckmaster Fastening System, all fasteners are hidden beneath the deckboards. There is no surface penetration of the deckboards or joists. No moisture can enter deckboards or joists and cause nail or screw pop-ups or deck rot. No stains or splinters form around fastener holes.
Benefits of the New Deckmaster Powder Coated Brackets:
50 Year Warranty
ACQ Compliant
Outstanding corrosion resistance.
Powder Coating’s natural wood color blends with the understructure of balconies.
No metal shine between the deck boards.
Spray painting the top of the brackets is eliminated.
Product Specifications
HIDE
View Image
Brackets
100
10 x 1†deck board screws
1200
8 x 1†joist screws
1100
Pro Bit Tip (square drive)
1
Certified boat fetish.
Buy an impact driver. They have plenty of torque, and with variable speed can get down to almost zero rpm with full torque for seating the screws. Some of them ar very short and will fit in small spaces.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I used deckmaster with Ipe several years ago. Pre-drill. I used the Jackrabbit drill bit, but two drills would be better.
Not sure if you are using stainless steel screws or not, or if deckmaster has changed what screws they ship with what units. If you are at the coast, use stainless steel for everything. Otherwise, you don't absolutely need it, but if you have an option of stainless steel for screws with regular galvinized brackets, go for it.
I installed the brackets on the joists, then wiped them off with lacquer thinner and sprayed with a dark red primer. Not difficult at all, but the deck was low enough to do by walking on the ground.
One super important tool that no-one listed so far is a good dust mask... moldex N-95
http://www.masksnmore.com/mo27n95pare.html
the dust is brutal... If you decide to use an impact wrench (which you should) get ear protection too.
predrilling is a must, and I found that I was lubing up some screws with (mainly for long screws for balusters etc.)
Ackempucky Bench Lube Tub
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product.asp?pid=LA-0900
I used a 12 Volt makita impact driver and had a dewalt drill to predrill... I used ipe clips, so I shot down from the top. It was nice not tripping on cords. Went through about 4 driving bits and 3 drill bits though. Ipe is brutal stuff.
I hate to admit it, but I picked up a crapsman close quarter drill
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Portable+Power+Tools&pid=00927996000&vertical=TOOL&subcat=Drills&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
on sale for about 65 dollars, and it was great for the job.
The fasteners that come with the Deckmaster may not be right for ipe. I used 1" (3/4" finished) ipe on 24" centers and had to use fairly short screws so they wouldn't poke out the top. I don't know how common squeaking is, but I know that out of 3 Deckmaster projects I've seen mine is the only quiet one and I clamped. I figured the screws wouldn't pull the board down as tight as if I clamped it. The 1" ipe spans 24" and is quite solid, I counted on saving some money on the framing to pay for the higher cost of the ipe and have it come out about the same.
As far as spacing, I think you do need to leave enough of a gap so it can grow when it gets wet. Maybe 3/16".
for A gun you want an impact drill/driver.
And anyone who tells you that you can drive into Ipe without drilling the pilot hole first has not used IPE` before
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Some more information off their site:
.
With Ipe and other tropical hardwoods, do I need to use stainless screws?
Often, lumber dealers recommend stainless fasteners in a general sense referring to surface fastening which may cause staining. With Deckmaster¯, there are no surface fasteners and therefore no opportunity to stain the top of the deck board. Unless the deck is in a high corrosive environment or near a spa or a pool with chlorinated water, Powder Coated Deckmaster¯ is the practical solution.
With Ipe and other tropical hardwoods, do I need to pre-drill?
You will generally not have to pre-drill IPE using the special Deckmaster¯ screws with the type 17 auger points. However, you will need to pre-drill IPE at splices or near (2-3â€) any butt ends of the boards, or if the IPE happens to be very dry. It is best to test to be sure. Moisture content may vary widely from the time the IPE is harvested to the time it is installed, so there is no definitive answer. Additionally, grain patterns may affect the possibility of splitting but the frequency is very rare.
Certified boat fetish.
Pre drill. Just finished an Ipe deck project. It will split if you don't pre drill. Impact driver in one hand drill in the other, have somone stand on top of the deck as you work your way along.
gee, I guess all I and the others here use is the dry IPE` that has to be predrilled.But you go right ahead and believe them if that is your pleasure.Reason I asked about the framing is that the copper used in it does cause deterioration of anything but SS screws and same goes for the steel rails. The paint may help prevent that contact.
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Piffin, you have the worst attitude of anybody that I have ever met on this board. I wish you would keep your snide remarks to your self and only post usefull information. Please do me a favor and don't post on my threads anymore.
Certified boat fetish.
If Piffin really bothers you all that much just select Ignore from the options button.Personally I have no problems skimming past anything that I don't want to read.
Yea, I enacted the feature. I've gotten simular responses from him to past threads, but I couldn't find the ignore button back then. Anyways, I guess the bottom line is that I'm going to hope the wood is wet enough that I don't have to predrill, but plan on having to do it. Man, that's going to be a pain. But I do like the idea of having somebody stand on the board. That'll be much quicker than clamping.
Those Vix bits. I know of them, but have never used one. Do they have a depth stop feature?
Certified boat fetish.
Personally, I would not use a Vix bit in this case. You have to apply pressure to plunge the bit into the wood. I'd use two cordless drills and a depth stop, though you can also just do it by feel.When we did our deck, the boards were layed at an angle. So we used an 8', 1/8" thick piece of aluminum el as the spacer. After securing one end, my wife would put the el on the already fastned board and then used a pry bar to pry the next board up tight to the el, and I fastened from underneath while she stood on the board.
I like the angle idea over using a nail. Won't drop through and won't dent the wood when you try to straighten a board. Did you have many warped or twisted boards? I was debating if I should by one of those BoWrenches.
I was thinking with the Vix bit that I wouldn't be as prone to bend the bit from dropping the drill and it wouldn't walk as much when starting. I presume A small brad point would proably be the best for the application. I will be using a cordless for the pilot holes. I only have 12v cordless drills, so they're really not up to the task of screwing the boards down. I'm bidding on one of those Milwaukee 55 degree angle drills. I think the poster was right about it offering excellent control. Plus it turns nice and slow so you can use full power. I don't own a hammer driver and really don't want to get into another battery system for $300+.
How much did your boards shrink in length? Looks like I'll end up with 1/4" gaps with a 1/8" spacing. I'll have a herringbone pattern and I'd like to keep the joints even.
Certified boat fetish.
Yeah, I used a 55 degree drill myself, with the jackrabbit bit, but that isn't how I would do it again. Though I love the drillAnyway, one word of caution that I forgot - Ipe dust ignites. I burned up my 55 degree drill that way. Let too much dust get in it I guess.Since we were going with an angled pattern with 16' boards, we felt something to make everything line up the same was the only way to go. I don't recall if a bow wrench will work in the situation or not, but with two people the pry bar works fine. I think we used a 2X4. We moved away 3 years ago, but as I recall lenght shrinkage really isn't a factor.Skating isn't too much of a problem, as you are drilling through the hole in the deck master. And since it is at an angle, I'm not positive how well a brad point would work.
Thanks. Skating is exactly what I was thinking of. I'm pretty sure a brad point will try to walk when started at a angle. You'd have to rotate the drill which kinda negates it's advantage.
Certified boat fetish.
boards never shrink in length - only in width.
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Thankyou for the information.
Certified boat fetish.
you're welcome, Good Luck.PS I don't recall making any attacks, I was just focusing on getting the truth out.Have a good day
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Perhaps I just have an attitude too, but I am always learning, always listening and observing, reading, trying to do the best job I can. It has been my experience that "hoping" something will happen a certain way on one of my jobs doesn't do much to create quality results, whereas informing myself and learning from experience goes a long way towards supporting the achievement of quality. I am amused by how much energy on this forum seems to get tied up in people taking personal issue with each other when there is such a wealth of information to be had. I, myself, don't have experience with the Deckmaster system, but I do have plenty with the Bowrench. It grips onto the top of the joist extending down both sides about an inch and a half which I believe would make it incompatible with the Deckmaster system. I also know that the most miniscule split in any decking board caused by fasteners, will only grow. A lot of my work entails redoing things that have failed due to lack of proper diligence when they were initially done, which has given me lots of opportunity to form my own opinions about how to do things well. I didn't use the term "right", because there is always more to be learned. I have always found it a benefit to listen, but I also get to choose what I deem to be of value, and real world experience carries a lot more weight for me than a manufacturers claims. It sounds like you have an ambitious and exciting project planned, may it turn out well.
yeah, lets talk about attitude.You get about 18 recommendations from people who have used IPE` before - all agreeing that you need to predril, but you blindly trust the manufacturer who is siomply trying to sell you something, truth be damned.
Why'd you bother asking if you want to ignore the answers?Save your insults for after you have a small bit of experience with IPE` Then you can come back and apologizeMeanwhile, the only attitude I have is that a job should be done right. I don't care if you do it the hard way or the easy way. If you do not isolate the steel from the acq ( I have to assume, since you keep failing to answer that question) it will rot out in short order.
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You just can't convince people the water is deep, even when they drown.
I think he is really underestimating how hard and difficult Ipe can be to work with. I like the idea behind the deckmaster but I doubt I could ever use it with something like Ipe, way too many screws to be fastening from underneath. Any wood that did not require pre drilling, fine.
It's not really a matter of convincing me. I'm in a position of having no experience and trying to learn from the board. The majority has certainly said to predrill and I've heard them. I even posted this before you put your post up. My issue was with Piffin's attitude and the unwarranted attacks he made. The product manufacturer is certainly qualified and experienced with their produce and the wood it's used with. If you read their instructions closely, you'll notice the mfr. says that you will need to predrill dry wood. Apparently, most people are getting Ipe when it's pretty dry. My lumber came today and I would describe it as being dry. That's not to say I won't try running a couple of screws into a scrap piece without predrilling. Hey, you can only be faulted for not trying.
Certified boat fetish.
All is well again. If you still have the block on Piffen, you should take it off, he is a very valuable source on this board and you should not exclude yourself from his experience.
We the Ipe, just remember that it is going to take much more time than you think. Its a lot of work but when its done, no decking looks as good.
Ipe is usually very straight but every now and then you'll get one that is off a bit. I have a few homemade SS bowench knockoffs I've made. As another poster said, because of the deckmaster you probably could not use that type of lever. When you need to push the wood straight, you can just make a few wedges. Just cut a taper on two different scraps of PT, so they are triangles with a low angle. You can screw one in a few inches from the board to be straightened, then drive the other into the angle. As the two fit tight, you'll push the board tight. Takes longer than a bowench but will work for your set up and its costless.
Edited 6/24/2006 11:07 am ET by DDay
Thanks for the idea. It being free is the best thing. If I build them out of Ipe, I can proably let my grandkids inherit them!
Certified boat fetish.
You will generally not have to pre-drill IPE using the special Deckmaster¯ screws with the type 17 auger points.
I'd love to have the marketing genius who wrote this show us all how this works. *chuckle*
As for the other questions, you'll probably go through a few saw blades.
And to the OP questions...you MUST endseal the cuts ASAP.
But like Piffin, I am just a jerk who drills first and uses the proper fastners.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
But your copper work looks so good, so its a wash.
Thanks, wait'll Fri Nite, we got gutter on the brain..lots O' Gutter.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
Well the marketing genius was right. You do not need to predrill. The screws run right in with no signs of splitting or twisting off. Per the instructions, I will predrill the ends though. That said, it's very labor intensive to install the deckmaster brackets. I'd guess that I at least doubled, maybe trippled the decking installation time.
Certified boat fetish.
Well the marketing genius was right.
I wouldn't have believed it.
The only epi decking we've used is quite dry 5/4 and we either get splits or broken screws with anything we've thrown at it.
I'm glad it worked for you as it should save quite a bit of time.
:-)
Do you mean literaly installing the brackets, or installing the decking to the brackets? I didn't find installing the brackets to take all that much additional time, but I didn't need to use ladders.Nail them on, wipe with lacquer thinner, and spray with metal primer.
Maybe they changed their installation. The ones I'm using are screwed to the side of the joist at 2" oc. Lots of screws. The blessing/curse is that the deck is on grade. Much easier to install the brackets, but I'm having a hard time running the screws in because I can't see what I'm doing.
Certified boat fetish.
I think you are correct about the screws. Still I don't recall it taking all that long.But if you are really at grade, how are you planning on attaching the decking? I didn't have any luck with the working from top way. I had to lay on the ground while my wife held the board in place, then I put the screws in.
That's exactly how I'm doing it. Most of the joists are 2x6, so there is enough room for me to lay down. Some are 2x8 and my nose won't clear them. I put some cardboard down, so it's pretty easy to move around.
Certified boat fetish.
Rather than cardboard, i put a hand hold on a piece of 3/8" plywood and had two pieces. I could lay on one and move the other.But you're probably done by now.
I'll question whether you are really getting Ipe then or they are substituting Merranti or Canberra and charging you for Ipe
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Ipe really isn't just one type of wood, its an umbrella of a number of species. I had a link somewhere, I'll see if I can find it again. I was surpised that he could screw anything into it, with SS, I strip them very quickly or they break.