How ,or what, do you folks do to track your time for jobs. Im looking at this in trying to determine how long it takes to do different tasks. Would then use this in making estimates/ bids ( try and use real time/ hard numbers).
I was thinking of picking a bunch of common tasks ( installing windows or doors, framing floor system, etc.) and writing up installation steps, then printing a bunch of these out. Could then write down on the instruction sheet the amount of time it took for each step and entire task. Could also note any problems or variances that occured during the installation.
Im thinking that this would work great in theory but……… am I really going to put the time in to writing up all the different installation steps, would I really take the time/ effort to write down the time it takes, AND would I ever actually use those numbers.
Have have no idea how the company I work for estimates time for tasks. No accurate, if any, record taking from the field.
So, what have you found that works for you.
Thanxs,
Edited 7/3/2007 11:47 am ET by m2akita
Replies
I've used quickbooks to record how long it takes to do each job.I can tell you honestly after doing home improvement work such as trim carpentry, tilework, and all kinds of repair work for the last 8 years that the only true way to value your time is by actually doing the work yourself. Most estimating books are using lab conditions where everything goes right. I found the books to be off quite a bit myself as far as how long it takes to do the work. Also you have to make sure if you do go by any of the books , include all the details , cuts down on how much you will loose . Frank
Guess I wasnt to clear in what I was looking for. I dont want time estimates from a book or program. I want real time values. What it is actually taking ME or the other carpenters in the field to do a certain task. I guess what Im asking is are people writing down/ tracking their time for jobs.
What I have been doing is keeping a pad of spiral bound index cards with me. Each day gets a new card. Will write the date and the name of the job Im at on the top of the card. Will then try ( operative word is try) and record the start and stop times of everything that Im doing. Problem is though that I will keep getting pulled away to take care of something else, then something else, and Ill not track that "away" time.
Also wondering how accurate people try to track their time?? 5, 10, 15, 30 minute blocks???Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
How long have you been doing work for yourself?
Stopwatch will do it also. The best way is to look at the big picture of what does it take to do the whole job.Meaning, if you hang a pre-hung door 3 times you know your capability and speed. You will be faster at some work and slower at others. A guy who installs tile every day will be faster than a guy like myself who does a tile job 6 times a year. Also, Nobody who is remodeling worries about a half hour here or there. If they do they would be better off working for somebody as an employee. Back to the subject of logging time, if you are working for 3 different people, you could just use a pad,put the name of the customer and log your time as .25 (15minutes), .5(30 minutes), .75 (45 minutes)etc. At the end of the day record your numbers onto a computer software program like quickbooks or make your own spreadsheet using excell. I did that for the 1st 3 years in business and then switched to Quickbooks. This makes life much easier. You can also make notes in Quickbooks so you can look back 10 years from now and remember the obstacles you ran in to each job. Lots of luck, Frank
Edited 7/3/2007 4:34 pm ET by Frankd479
Been doing mostly "side work" for myself for about 3 years. Work for a company during the week. Just havent bit the bullet yet and gone out on my own. That is the plan, just putting the pieces together.Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Matt, you know I'm not a carp. My experience along the lines of your question was running a small cabinet shop for an upscale builder. We tracked half hour intervals for everybody. Clearly, large variation between workers.
What it accomplished for me was an excellent method to price future work. We set an hourly shop rate, employees paid hourly according to their production. That information was not shared with the employees to avoid arguments and QC problems. I was able to determine costs with certainty.
It was $x/carcase, $x/drawer, $x/single panel door, ... End of the guesswork. Lin ft pricing was inadequate for the type of houses we built. Too much variation.
Part of my job was tracking everybody. Initial resistance, faded away with time and raises. Worked very well for years. Unfortunately the guy they hired to replace me didn't have a clue, refused the method. Shop was closed shortly thereafter.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
After searching thru some JLC and FH old articles, this is what I am trying to do the past couple weeks-
I printed a form on 3x5 cards
Left column is days MTWTF
Next three columns are customer columns
Last column is labeled overhead
I have set up an estimating program in Excel with different linked spreadsheets. For instance I have a drywall spreadsheet, framing spreadsheet, etc.
On the bottom of the 3x5 I have codes which correspond to the spreadsheets. For example 2=Demo 20=window 9=finish carpentry.
Say on Monday, I replace a window for Joe. On my dash I have a stopwatch, I start it when I pull up to Joes and leave it in the van.
Say I am on the job four hours(I am just making the times up). I guess the time spent on each category. In the Joe column--1/2,2/20,1/9, which means one hour spent on demo which is code 2, two hours installng the window (2/20) and one hour installing trim (1/9)
That way I know it doesn't take me four hours to install a window, the four hours were actually three different things.
In the overhead column I keep track of time spent talking to customers, books, bids, etc.
I hope I explained it halfway well. It's easier than it sounds
I am terrible about keeping track of things. I know if I carried a stopwatch with me and wrote things down at intervals, that would last about an hour, but I think I can come close by glancing at my watch at each stopping point and guessing what I did in a day.
I'll see how this works. I am interested what everyone else does.
Thanxs CraigF. Your response is kinda what I was looking for. Im doing something similiar to you. I dont think the stop watch would work for me. Just easier to glance at my watch.
I think one of the biggest things is to just get into the habit of recording the things. Then it becomes habit, and one starts doing it second nature.
I have quickbooks, just havent installed it, so I may look at that part of it for recording times. Also looking into writing an excel file or buying a program that I could record the times with a Pocket PC or Palm.
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Personally, as a working carp the method that works best for me is to simply write on the wall (or notepad on finished areas) the clock time when a small project is finished.
It doesn't take but 10 seconds and forces a quick mental note.
Then at the end of the day I can walk around and record the times that are worth keeping for estimation purposes.
If it's important to get a better estimate for future use, I'll try to limit any other unrelated projects that always seem to creep into the daily schedule.
In remodels I have yet to see any contractor that can get really close to the actual amount of work required. Those that primarily use subs can get closer simply because the subs are taking on much of the unknown risk, not because the estimate matches reality closer. Others that get really close are really altering the quality of construction to match time with the bid, essentially cutting corners and accepting unreliable quality as a sop.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I have a system thats not qutie as accurate as you want, but its a start. We are in the excavation, foundation,framing and roofing buisness. We do work for a lot of big residential builders. We have crews all over the city and a lot of people working for us. Each division has a head foreman. Each head foreman goes around everyday from job to job with a form. On the form he writes down the builder, site, the lot number, the model (unless its custom) , what stage the job is at, and what was accomplished in that day. So for example: Mattamy homes, site 14B, lot 68, model 64A, second floor wall framing complete, interior walls completed today,wall bracing pending. Its not exactly what your going for but it really helps us to know whats going on. I hope that helps.
Edited 7/4/2007 6:17 pm ET by Timberline69
Lineal foot and square foot pricing only seems to work if the pricing is so high that it will cover all the variables.
I price pretty much by guess work. I have a reasonable ide a how long it will take to do a project. However, I do sometimes for get my psychic powers hat and exray glasses at home. On those days I sometimes loose my shirt. I'm on one of those shirt losing projects right now. Too may unforseens.
In the end, having staff log their hours spent on a task is the best way to go. Be honest with them. If they suspect that it is being used to track performance, your numbers will never be right.
Dave
I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one with the problems outlined on this thread!!! After 20+ years in So. Florida doing TM work for mostly one company and their customers it's been hard to adjust to set pricing/estimates. (I've been remodeling here in the Nashville, TN area for the last 3.5 yrs.) I use "Means Residential Repair and Remodeling Costs" as a basic guide to pricing. Then I too put on my magicans skull cap and make the best guesstimate I can as to how long it will take me to do certain tasks. Most of the bills are paid and I having to loose weight so I guess that since I'm not starving I'm OK.I ALWAYS enjoy the threads.
Doctor Dave - "Lineal foot and square foot pricing only seems to work if the pricing is so high that it will cover all the variables.
I price pretty much by guess work. I have a reasonable ide a how long it will take to do a project. However, I do sometimes for get my psychic powers hat and exray glasses at home. On those days I sometimes loose my shirt. I'm on one of those shirt losing projects right now. Too may unforseens."
Ya know Dave I've got to disagree with your thinking and methodology there. (Probably not a surprise to anyone who really knows me.)
There are studies out there that have been done to show that estimating accuracy improves as you break up the project being estimated in to a bunch of little projects that you can apply Unit Costs (Lineal foot and square foot pricing etc.) to the component tasks.
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If I understand correctly what your saying your method of looking at a project a having an idea of "how long it will take to do a project" is something akin to an Order of Magnitude Estimate that can have a potential error of ± 20 to 70%.
As for "Lineal foot and square foot pricing only seems to work if the pricing is so high that it will cover all the variables." what you do is develop a Unit Cost for your typical tasks based on the AVERAGE time it takes your personnel to perform the task.
By developing a Unit Cost based on the AVERAGE time a task take you are accounting for what's known as the Common Cause Variation in that task. In other words sometimes it may take you .500 labor hours (30 minutes) to install a solid or architectural pre-hung interior door (no hardware or trim) and sometimes it may take you 1.200 labor hours (1 hour 12 minutes) but lets say after you've done a bunch of doors you generally average out to .842 labor hours (51 minutes) and that's the figure you use to build your estimate.
But I know you'll say that every once in a while you come across an opening that isn't framed right, let say it too narrow of too low and out of plumb, and you have to work on the opening cutting it and plumbing it up to allow your door to fit so instead of that 1.200 labor hours (1 hour 12 minutes) it ends up taking 2.25 (2 hours 15 minutes) to install the door. And sometimes you have a job with a bunch of doors like that.
Well the difference between the AVERAGE task time for performing that task and what it takes you under adverse or problematic conditions is what's know as the Special Cause Variation in the task and what you do is estimate that/those Special Causes separately. In other words you use the AVERAGE task time for all the doors and the door opening that require special prep work you tack on an extra 1.408 (1 hour 24 minutes) per 'special' opening.
"I'm on one of those shirt losing projects right now. Too may unforseens."
Did you get hit with the 'unforseens' because you never saw them in the first place or because they were really specifically covered in your Order of Magnitude Estimate? If that's the case then you need some better contract language to cover for "unforeseen conditions". You might want to pickup the book Defensive Estimating: Protecting Your Profits by William Asdal and see what he has to say about "protecting your estimate" and maybe some of the other books on this Estimating Book Recommendations blog page of mine might help you out identifying what Unit Costs you might want to develop too.
You see the advantage of developing a Unit Cost estimate the way I described above using average Unit Costs for typical activities is that you can then devote your time to and concentrate on looking for an identifying the "unforeseen conditions" and get coverage for them in the estimate.
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Your absolutely right. However, because i do so many different things, my pricing book would be more like a set of encyclopedia's. If I could do a square foot price for a deck or shed etc. and have it be accurate without gouging my client, I would think that was great.
Dave
How about using a small recording device (maybe even your cell phone) to just record the start time what you are doing and the stop time? Then you can listen to it later and work out all the categories you need.
I have actually thought about that, but not sure if it would work. Another thing to carry around with me, having to transfer info from audio to print, etc.......
I think I will try the notepad or pocket Pc first. Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.