I’m remodeling a bathroom and couple of questions have arisen in my mind….
What, if anything, happens if the water heater is hooked up backwords (the supply is going IN the side labeled HOT and the hot is coming out the side labeled COLD)? This is how the customer’s heater is hooked up and has been for a decade or more and the customer has never had a problem….
What happens if you only flux one side of the joint? For example, you flux the end of the pipe, but not the inside of the coupler.
How long after you flux and join a couple of pieces do you have to solder the joint?
If you use too much solder, it spills out and drips to the floor and is ugly. Why doesn’t it do that on the inside of the pipe?
When your driving down the road at a steady 65 mph, what would happen if you suddenly slammed the gear selector into Park??? OK, not plumbing, but I’ve often wondered. I fear that someday when I’m old and senile I’ll try this.
Rich Beckman
Replies
OK... I'm not a plumber but here goes anyway:
A) It works but lower efficiency
B) If there's adequate flux to coat the joint, as long as the joints cleaned both surfaces, no problem
C) Quite a while... certainly an hour or more in my experience
D) It does
E) The tranny has an interlock that prevents that
F) The true meaning of life is
PaulB
1. It runs out of hot water quickly.
2. If the flux failed to transfer and coat a spot on the other piece before it got hot, it would oxidize and there would be a spot with no solder contact.
3. Don't know. A few years might be too long.
4. Capillary action pulls solder into the joint. At the inside of the joint it doesn't come out because capillary action is pulling the other way.
5. Depends on the way the gears synchronize. Normally it jerks and makes a really bad noise. It only makes the noise the first time. At least that's what it did in the 1970s.
1. Agreed: It runs out of hot water quickly.
2. Agreed: If the flux failed to transfer and coat a spot on the other piece before it got hot, it would oxidize and there would be a spot with no solder contact. But good practice is to flux only the pipe and turn it inside the coupling to spred the flux - fluxing the coupling and pushing in the pipe can leave a dollop of flux inside the coupling/fitting, and flux corrodes copper.
3. Agreed: A few years might be too long. Certainly a little while is OK.
4. Agreed: Capillary action pulls solder into the joint. At the inside of the joint it doesn't come out because capillary action is pulling the other way.
5. Disagree: Depends on the way the gears synchronize. There are no syncrhonizers in an automatic since the gears are always meshed. But the parking pawl will try to engage and blow apart.
6. Oh yeah, the answer to life and everything is ... 42
Edited 3/14/2008 11:24 pm ET by Riversong
Hmmm...I think we're all essentially in agreement except that capillary action aside, I've cut out more than a few joints and seen a nice gob O solder on the inside. Not enough to create an issue but certainly enough to qualify as gobbage.PaulB
I've cut out more than a few joints and seen a nice gob O solder on the inside.
You're right that it's possible to over-solder a joint. Rule of thumb is to use the same length of solder as the diameter of the pipe/fitting: 1/2" of solder for a 1/2" fitting.
If you bend that 1/2" of solder at 90°, then you can tell when you've used enough.
It's especially important not to over-solder a sweat-to-thread fitting (like a female adapter) or a valve.
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Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Won't address the plumbing parts but Myth Busters did the park thing and it did not do anything IIRC. I think it would depend on the model and trans design though.
http://mythbustersresults.com/episode84
Oh he11, I will address the backwards part, most have a dip tube that introduces the cold to the bottom of the tank and the "hot" outlet draws from the top where the water is hotset.
I used to be an automatic transmission mechanic.
Very bad idea to engage this parking pawl while moving.
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I went back and looked at that Myth B thing and it was talking about reverse, not park. I can see a battle of who can grind down first, the pawl or the ring (:-).
"and flux corrodes copper."This brings up more questions.....
The flux I used on this job says on the package that it is water soluble. So wouldn't excess flux inside the pipe just rinse away when the water is turned on??If I get it on my shirt will it put a hole in same??Am I the only one who thinks the plastic "tin" that flux is sold in really sucks?? It leaks. It is hard to close.
Rich Beckman
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The flux I used on this job says on the package that it is water soluble. So wouldn't excess flux inside the pipe just rinse away when the water is turned on??
It's always preferable to use water-soluble flux than petroleum-based flux for that reason, but it's still corrosive and important not to overflux or to push excess flux into the fitting.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Rich, you might be interested enough to take apart some of your own copper work and see what it looks like inside. I have done so several times, mostly when re-remodeling something and sometimes just cutting off a cap so that I can continue piping. The solder lays down very nicely inside the fittings rather than becoming a big lump. If you feed a 1 lb. roll into a 1/2" fitting then you might prove me wrong.... but I always stop to admire the inside of my work when I get the chance.
Not long ago, driving along in our '01 Toyota 4Runner, our small dog got excited (saw a cat on the sidewalk on my side) jumped on the console and knocked the shifter into Reverse. The vehicle started coasting and I pulled it back into Drive. On that vehicle you have to push the thumb button down to go into Park.
That photo Robert posted... that pawl is mean-lookin' and I sure wouldn't want to test it at freeway speed.
"you might be interested enough to take apart some of your own copper work and see what it looks like inside."
On the rare occasion I have had that opportunity, what little solder was on the inside has been a very thin layer on the wall of the pipe.Historically, I have no problems with running copper pipe. My only crime is that usually I don't get the joint wiped down fast enough and I always use a bit too much solder (it ain't done til a drop falls to the floor....).
This job was a bit different. There was a lot of soldering to begin with and then I had a few leaks, so I've had lots of time to ponder the above questions as I cleaned the pipe and fittings, and cleaned the pipe and fittings....I gave up getting the 3/4" shut off valve soldered in and used the shark bite option there. The hot water shut off was no problem, but the cold water just didn't want to not leak.I learned that if enough heat is applied to the 3/4" ball valve the seal will let go with the sound of a gun shot (I was trying to remove the badly soldered in pipe....). Funny as hell once I got past the initial shock.
Rich Beckman
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I've wondered about those ball valves. I've migrated to them over the last few years, but had a problem with two of them in a recent application not shutting off the flow completely. I was wondering if I had over-heated them. A plumber I know said that ball valves were c r a p. But I've also seen plenty that he's installed. And that was the first time I've had problems with probably dozens I've installed over the years.Steve
Ball valves ####??!!!If so, then ALL valves are ####. I lost count of how many gate valves I've encountered in old work that needed replaced or at least repaired in addition to what other work I was doing. The job I just finished has several gate valves, but I'm not convinced any of them actually completely shuts off the water.Gate valves are good for when you may want to adjust the flow. But how often do you want to do that other than at the faucet???I'll take a ball valve any day of the week. One quarter turn to on or off. Fast, simple, complete.Maybe you got it too hot. Maybe you just got a couple of bad ones.
Rich Beckman
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You probably overheated the valve & created a leak by condition where the steel hits the teflon---- quite common error.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
When your driving down the road at a steady 65 mph, what would happen if you suddenly slammed the gear selector into Park???
By the looks of it, you'd be squashed by a giant peach.
Well I can tell you from experience, when I was a kid, driving my dads chevy wagon to work ,pull into the parking lot, try to stop and no brakes. Threw it into park and it just chattered until I slowed enough for it to engage, then the wheels locked. Fixed the brakes and the trans was fine.
Well this is WAY off topic - maybe.
But, yes, if you slam the shifter into park at speed the pawl will just skip over the lock ring until you slow down to perhaps 5 mph at which time it will suddenly engage.
Putting the tranny in reverse, however, at speed is not a good thing.
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These questions you are having are the reason I am using pex on my current project and trying to avoid cutting or sodering any copper. While I am told that working with copper is actually quite easy, I think pex is even easier and there are plenty of other things I would rather learn how to do than work with copper. For residential plumbing, copper seems to be the old way of doing things. So far I have avoided having to use copper for anything, but the apartment I'm plumbing is all new, so I'm lucky to not have to work with any existing plumbing.
Fluxing only one side is not that big of a deal on small fittings, larger fittings & you're asking for a leak.
Water soluble flux will go bad before non water soluble. Time frame depends on environment conditions. Salty humid environment will turn that sucker green in a few minutes.
For the most part when the solder stops getting sucked into the fitting then you have used enough----- yes if I try I can feed a 1 pound roll of solder into a 1/2" joint. Generally if you used a minimal amount of flux there's no need to worry about getting a bunch of solder inside the pipe.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Don't forget ventilation in that bathroom! I soldered a lot of copper in wide-open basements with no problem, but last year working in a utitility room just about destroyed me until the folks here helped me figure out the flux was causing the godawful headaches.
"Don't forget ventilation in that bathroom!"What are you saying?! We are supposed to NOT breath the fumes??I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years....
I really enjoyed all that PVC drain work!!
Rich Beckman
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We are supposed to NOT breath the fumes??
The last house I built was the first time I saw a plumber glueing up PVC wearing heavy gloves and a charcoal filter respirator.
I guess too much of a good thing just ain't good.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I didn't even know there WERE fumes until i couldn't see straight for the headache i developed putting that boiler in; those 1-1/4" joints put out a few more fumes than the leetle ones. Unfortunately the mask didn't save me from the hobo spider that gave me two more weeks of headache after the first one ended.That plumbing'll kill ya if you don't live through it.
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Edited 3/15/2008 8:18 pm ET by Riversong
Edited 3/15/2008 8:28 pm ET by Riversong
Tubing cutter:
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Yah, I figured that's what you looked like.
You know you want me...
how much do you charge?
I'm priceless.