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venting or possible ignorance

thehistorydude | Posted in General Discussion on June 15, 2007 01:58am

Picked up a load of mahogany tongue and grove decking for a front porch yesterday. Was told it would be random length but just how random is another story. The load I inspected before special ordering was 8 and 12 foot, fine. What I got was 7, 9, 11, 13, 14, and 20 foot lengths!!

Maybe I don’t know something about random length and hardwood (I’m sure there’s probably a lot I don’t know) but anytime I’ve gotten flooring or decking of any sort random length has been 8, 12, 14, 16 foot lengths with a few 4 and 6 footers tossed in for good measure.

Lumberman said that what comes in is what ya get and given that it was special ordered I was stuck with it. Have I just learned a new lesson about random length and hardwood measurement or can I be rightly annoyed at all the waste I’m going to have?

BTW, thanks again to dustinf and betterbuiltnyc for the Manasquan fastener recommendation. Stainless flooring nails are on the way!

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  1. mike_maines | Jun 15, 2007 02:08am | #1

    Softwoods usually come in 2' increments but for hardwoods, even Poplar, lengths can be pretty much anything.  I'd be annoyed if there were a lot of 7'ers but it sounds like you got a fair mix.

     

  2. Ragnar17 | Jun 15, 2007 03:20am | #2

    I have limited experience with hardwood flooring, but in my opinion it sounds like you got a better than average deal.  I'd feel gypped if I got stuck with a bunch of 4-footers.  I guess I don't understand why you think the 20-footers are undesirable. 

    Why is it that you think you're going to get a lot of waste with the stock that was delivered to you?

  3. MikeHennessy | Jun 15, 2007 03:52am | #3

    Waste? Longer boards means less waste. Are you thinking you don't want to butt joint anything but T&G ends? If so, that's not necessary -- you can butt straight cut ends just with no problems.

    Mike Hennessy
    Pittsburgh, PA

    1. Ragnar17 | Jun 15, 2007 04:20am | #4

      Yeah, the "more waste" comment doesn't make sense to me either.  I'll be interested in what he says about it.

    2. dovetail97128 | Jun 15, 2007 08:15am | #7

      Mike , I may be missing something here but the OP did say this was a front porch. Maybe he has joists 2'o.c. and wants end breaks over the joists. No sub floor on a front porch."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca

      1. MikeHennessy | Jun 15, 2007 02:54pm | #11

        " Maybe he has joists 2'o.c. and wants end breaks over the joists."

        Could be. But irrespective of the joist spacing, I still don't see how there would be less waste with shorter sticks unless one was insisting on T&G joints on the butts. I'm still thinking that total waste would be reduced as the lengths of the sticks increased. No matter what the joist spacing, you should be able to cut and install any stick in the pile with only one waste section, which would always be shorter than one joist bay. Longer sticks =  fewer used for the job, and fewer cuttoffs for the kindling pile. For me, I'd take a truckload of 20s over a bunch of 4s and 6s any day!

        As for always breaking over a joist, that's probably a good idea. That said, the second floor of my own house is T&G oak, no subfloor, butts rarely on a joist. It's held up w/o any sign of a problem for about 80 yrs. now. So I don't think it's absolutely necessary.

        Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

        1. thehistorydude | Jun 15, 2007 03:29pm | #12

          Guess I'm falling more into the ignorance category. But to explain, long lengths aren't a problem, 20 footers are great.

          The porch deck is 8 x 30, with the decking running perpendicular to the house, i.e., 8 foot lengths (actually just under since I'll picture frame the exposed edges) running away from the house. Existing joists are on 2 foot centers. 7 footers are too short (3 bundles in the order of 1000 lf), 9 footers (3 bundles) leave a 1.5 feet of scrap. 11s leave 3 feet, ok, can use some of that. 13s leave 5, and so on. 

          I'm probably being a ridiculous but had never seen odd lengths (7,9,11,13) for exterior decking, either in PT, Trex, or Ipe. Interior flooring is another matter. FWIW the lengths are also indicated in metrics, e.g., 2.1, 2.7, 3.3, 3.9 meters. Maybe that's where it's coming from.

          1. User avater
            SamT | Jun 15, 2007 04:34pm | #13

            Add two joists and double width the picture frame = 7'ers OK.7' + 1.5' cutoff = OK. T&G span 1 bay is not a problem.3' cutoff + 5' cutoff = OK If you wanna break between joists4' + 4' = OK4 + 3 + 1.5 = OKJust curious, Flooring is perpendicluar to house. That means joists are parallel. So, unless you already plan on doubling the joists under the ends at the picture frame, won't all the ends near the edges fall off the joists.If you put a 30'x2x4 block between a doubled rim joist, you could use all the really short cutoffs as the picture frame. Make it a 2x6, or 2x8 block, and double the picture frame and the 7'ers would run across.SamT

            Praise the Corporation, for the Corporations' highest concern is the well being of the public.

          2. Ragnar17 | Jun 15, 2007 10:19pm | #14

            7 footers are too short ... 9 footers ....leave a 1.5 feet of scrap

            This sounds counterintuitive, but sometimes you can cut up the pieces to make them fit better. 

            For example, you've need to fill approximately eight feet.

            Cut a nine-footer at 5 and 4.

            Cut a seven footer at 3 and 4.

            Then mix the pieces.  The 5 and 3 make 8, and the 4 and 4 make 8.

            Note that if you cut the pieces from the correct END of each board, the endmatching will still work, too.  (Assuming your stock is endmatched, of course.)

            If you're wanting to land your butts at joists then this can be more problematic, but the above example should give you something to think about and possibly adapt to your situation.

            As SamT said, you can also add some more joists.  Even without the waste issue, adding joists might not be a bad idea considering you have 24" spacing.  That seems a bit on the wide side considering there's no subfloor.  When I've done porch decks, I've placed the joists at either 16" or 12" centers.  Maybe that's overkill, but it sure made the deck nice and solid.

            Whatever you do, make sure you keep the short pieces in towards the house, NOT out near the edge.  This is because the part of the porch towards the house is more protected and won't get wet as often, so there's less chance of water getting at the end grain.

             

             

            Edited 6/15/2007 3:25 pm ET by Ragnar17

          3. Piffin | Jun 16, 2007 01:57am | #17

            For something like that you should have just ordered all eights since all eights is what you needed. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          4. bps | Jun 16, 2007 02:01am | #18

            Piffin is correct...quite yur #itchin and enjoy the long boards!

            Edited 6/15/2007 7:02 pm ET by bps

          5. thehistorydude | Jun 16, 2007 01:55pm | #20

            I'll will be adding extra joists, 24 is a bit far, and I do want the butt joints to land on a joist. Didn't really want to have 1 foot pieces in the field, 2 footers would be ok. I tried to order all 8 foot lengths but was told they'd come in random lengths only. I was then directed out to the yard to inspect an order of the same decking. What was there were neat bundles of 8, 12, and 16 footers. That is what I expected to get. I'm not upset at long lengths, what got me was the odd lenghts, and wondering if that was normal for hardwood decking. That's the gist of it. I'll chalk it up to experience!

          6. Piffin | Jun 16, 2007 03:00pm | #21

            I like to avoid butt joiunts in a porch.Butt it sounds like you are stuck with it. So try to keep your joints back nearer the wall where rain won't get to them much, and cut them as a scarf at about 22 to 30° and seat them together with gorilla glue to keep moisture out. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          7. Ragnar17 | Jun 16, 2007 09:43pm | #22

            Did you ever say whether the flooring you got is end matched (i.e. tongue and groove cut at the ends as well as on the long edges)?

            Edited 6/16/2007 2:44 pm ET by Ragnar17

      2. Piffin | Jun 16, 2007 01:54am | #16

        He shouldn't be spanning two feet with this flooring anyway. 16" or 19.2" OC would be the right frame layout 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  4. DonK | Jun 15, 2007 04:27am | #5

    Lengths depend on the material. Ordered rendom lengths of beveled cedar siding once and got all odd sizes. (Only difference was I wasn't tied to 16" framing.)  Next time, I asked for the lengths I wanted.

    Don K.

    EJG Homes     Renovations - Rentals - New Construction

  5. RW | Jun 15, 2007 05:07am | #6

    Thats pretty par for the course. If its critical, theres one yard here I can specify minimum lengths, and then its a guy there talking to a guy somewhere else talking to a guy on the other coast . . . and then they send what they have thats closest to what you ask for, which usually is survivable.

    Real trucks dont have sparkplugs

  6. billybatts | Jun 15, 2007 08:18am | #8

    I think you should get a slot cutting bit for your router so that you can either tongue or groove the ends of the boards that you cut.

    1. Geoffrey | Jun 15, 2007 08:43am | #9

      billy,

         I was thinking the same thing, then there'd be little or no waste!

                                                                                                  Geoff

      1. mike_maines | Jun 15, 2007 02:37pm | #10

        Even with end-matched flooring I would only break over a joist if there's no subfloor.

  7. Piffin | Jun 16, 2007 01:51am | #15

    What you got is what I would expect and feel glad about it! To take those lengths and make it all 8' and 12' to satisfy your expectations they would have had to cut a lot shorter and waste a lot of perfectly good flooring. I want my flooring lengths just as long as I can get them to minimize end joints for appearance.

    That's me and mine

    Now you - what in the world would you consider wrong with nice long lumber?

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

  8. User avater
    JeffBuck | Jun 16, 2007 07:45am | #19

    so mostly 2 ft increments ... just odd numbers.

    so ... run a row of blocking a foot in from each end.

     

    bang ... done.

     

    Y wanna get real planned randomness ... add two more rows of blocking 3 ft from the ends ... tons of racking and stacking possibilities.

    Jeff

        Buck Construction

     Artistry In Carpentry

         Pittsburgh Pa

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