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I already know what to expect from this one but aside from the boasting rights to owning a ‘real rolex’, what issues are there with installing vinyl siding over wood clapboards?
Can you install it over existing clapboards and still look good?
Is it noisy?
Won’t it help insulate the house?
Is Sears any good? What should I watch out for besides the sales pitch? (Anyone remember the movie Tin Men?)
Are there different brands and quality? Who’s the best?
Thanks for any info,
steve
Replies
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As you have guessed, you would get more of the positive responces you are seeking over at the "Poor Homebuilding" site.
I will let the others answer the technical questions (or you could do a search and read for hours) but before you spend your hard earned money wrapping your home with plastic, why don't you at least get an estimate on some high quality steel siding (my personal preference) from a high quality installer. You might be surprised how little the price difference really is (as they say, you get what you pay for). I bet it won't be very many years before you will realize that you made the right decision.
*Jim,Since you suggested search, you must use it a lot. I tried a search on Vinyl on this site and nothing came up. Are you referring to the web in general or is there information hidden here that I overlooked?In regards to steel vs vinyl, wouldn't vinyl be easier to fit over existing siding? I was thinking of leaving the existing siding on for a couple of reasons 1) years down the road someone may want to remove the vinyl and make use of the wood 2) added insulation.Thanks,steve
*Sears does not install siding (or anything else). They sub out all that kind of work, and offer financing as a means to make it available to almost everyone. Nowadays, most larger siding companies that have been in business for years do the same thing as far as financing goes. They can get you financing if you need it.Get estimates from local installers that have been in business for many years. Check outsome of the jobs they have done, and ask the people how they have liked the vinyl after a period of time.Just a thought...James DuHamel
*Vinyl Siding is junk. It is wavey and looks like crap. Why in the world would you want to install it? What are you trying to accomplish?I am not being critical, just trying to understand what your problems are or what you want to achieve.
*Dear Steve,Oh boy oh boy -- am I going to regret wading in here? Hope not, but I suppose there's a risk. And warning, this is a LONG message.I'm a writer by trade, and a general contractor -- recently -- by desire. That's my technical description. In practice, I'm a "specialty contractor," namely, a siding contractor. We do vinyl, cementious composites, and cedar. I know very little about commercial steel and aluminum siding.First, whenever I can, I steer my customers toward HardiPlank, Wolverine Durapress, or other cementious composites. They are simply better. Of course, the vinyl wholesalers, installers, etc., around here all make cheap cracks about these materials -- "Just like LP siding, the class action lawsuits are starting." Not true, not at all. HardiPlank, for one, is great, and a search of the Lexis legal database and other legal search engines that I did recently failed to find a single lawsuit against them. For more on that, check out http://www.4w.com/siding/, a clearinghouse website for siding-related litigation.Speaking of which, avoid all hardboard sidings. They look nice when new, and are heartaches waiting to happen.Thing is, there are times when HardiPlank is not practical for a particular customer or installation. It requires painting, and costs more to install in the first place (product cost is comparable to vinyl). I never try to strongarm my customers into a more expensive job than they're comfortable with (unlike, say, the &$&#%^$ sales types hired by Sears and the bigger siding companies). The primary reasons for going with vinyl are cost and maintenance. There are some people who simply cannot afford to spend more, and there are some who (no matter what they can afford) are not good about maintenance, repainting, etc., and for them vinyl is far better.I have to respectfully disagree with Scooter above. Vinyl is not "junk." It is not always wavey; if it is, the installation was bad. And that does happen, all too frequently. Depends on whether or not the contractor rode herd on the job, whether or not he or she had a good foreman, or at least hired an experienced and responsible crew. Putting up vinyl is about one of the easiest jobs there is at any construction site, but sloppy workers can screw it up royally anyhow -- for example, by nailing too tight. Done right, a truly first-class job can easily fool you from the street into believing it's cedar or some other product. (Pros can spot it at almost any distance, of course, usually by looking for the J-channel around the windows and doors).I do have aesthetic problems with vinyl. Mostly, the finishing edges rarely look exactly right. Vinyl soffits are always installed perpendicular to the wall, rather than parallel, for example. But they don't always look bad, either. Again, depends on how it's done. Vinyl has even been used on some famous historic homes successfully. As a customer, you need to be prepared to spend a little more on the detailing (which, unfortunately, is where they'll stick you with over-inflated costs).As for alternatives: metal siding does not look at all good on MOST homes in MOST neighborhoods. It's just not right for aesthetic reasons. I'm referring, of course, to commercial steel or aluminum siding which (as you might expect, is generally used on commercial buildings). Years ago, "tin men" sold aluminum and steel siding that mimics clapboard (just as vinyl does now). A little of that stuff is still out there. Avoid it like the plague. Vinyl is far, far superior. IF your home would actually look good (due to location, design, etc.) with an industrial-style siding on it, then Jim is right: it's one of the best in terms of durability and maintenance. I don't know about the cost, differences among manufacturers, etc. Not my area. You can see how it looks by checking various back-issues of Fine Homebuilding. Over the years, they've featured quite a few places sided that way.Now to your specific questions:1. No siding helps at all with insulation. Any salesman tells you otherwise, he's lying. It just ain't true. That includes AmazingSiding (t) -- we always say that what's amazing is that it doesn't fall off the wall -- and any of the rigid "insulating" panels that are frequently sold with siding. You can improve your home's insulation values in many other ways at far less cost.2. However, vinyl should not be placed directly over clapboard. You DO need a smooth nailing surface. That is the legitimate use of the rigid foam sheathing I mentioned a second ago. It does increase your R-value by some very small amount, but don't give that fact any weight at all in your buying decision. It's simply not optional, however, if you're going over clapboard.3. A full tear-off of the old clapboard will mean that your siding "fits" relative to the windows and doors. It costs more, of course, and if there is any chance at all that someone might want to restore the home in the future to its original appearance (if, for example, it is a fairly large and ornate home, very old, or has some notable architectural qualities) then you need to leave the old clapboard. If you do have it pulled, expect the gorillas doing the job to shred it, even if more careful removal could save it.By the way, you can improve the appearance right out the box by specifying wide lineals around the windows. Costs more, of course, and for some contemporary homes it is neither needed nor even appropriate. But for most older homes, it is.4. You ask if vinyl is noisy. I don't know what you mean. But, I think the answer is no.5. I would never buy siding from Sears, nor from any of the large siding companies. If they're really large, it means they probably are running a boiler room. The exception would be the companies that don't advertise much and, mostly, are working for developers and general contractors on new construction. But, then, most of them don't want to screw with your little house. Retrofit is far more of a hassle than new construction.Sears (and ALL of the big retailers that act as the sales front for home repair and improvement) are notorious for hiring cheap crews and charging sky-high markups. The quality of the product they use is very often not good, either.Your best bet is a smallish company that has been in business for a few years, and has at least one guy -- the boss or a foreman -- on salary who (by contractual agreement) will be on-site for at least a little while each day. The "oldest" company in town is no protection. Among the oldest here is a guy known in the trade as completely dishonest.6. As for brands: most of them -- not all -- are perfectly fine. Certainteed Monogram is one of my favorites, and it is very, very good. It is also on the expensive side. Another good brand, one I am quite fond of, is Kaycan. They have fewer colors and only sell through their own warehouses. But it is also very good, and about 20-40% cheaper than Certainteed (or Wolverine, Certainteed's sister brand). We've used it on very high-end property with great results. By the way, do NOT fall for gimmicks, like the fiberglass rods in the Wolverine products. Many times the applicators throw it away ... in part because it's hard to see how it does much good. If I sell it, I put it in because that's required by the manufacturer and MAY make a difference, but I don't think much of it. (Even though I like Wolverine in general).Another tip: be very careful about checking the boxes when the product arrives at site. If you ordered Monogram or Kaycan, the boxes will say so and most should still be factory-sealed. If they say anything else, or are blank, an illegal switcheroo is going on! Confront them, keep them from staking the job, and call the D.A. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen.Finally, what should it cost? Varies from region to region. But here are a few tips. Measure your house: height and width of all walls. Do some calculations for gables and the like, and average up on those. Subtract window and door space. Be sure to add in for porch posts and the like if they will need to be sided (including both sides of closed-railings). Now you've got your square footage. We go by the square -- 100 square feet. In most places, you should be paying about $275 to $375 per square for everything, unless it's a very tiny place in which case minimum charges come into play. Tearoff will save you some on the rigid foam backerboard, but cost you for new paper and the tearoff and dump fees themselves. Anything much above these figures should really raise an eyebrow. Anything much below, the same. (Super-premium materials, like Certainteed Cedar Impressions, will drive prices way higher). I could say more, but this is already more than enough. Bottom line: vinyl can be fine if you find a reliable and honest siding company. Avoid Sears and other big-box sellers. Do investigate the cost of HardiPlank and other cementious alternatives, but remember to include the paint job in that.-- RogerPortland, Oregon
*Roger,Thanks for the info, very informative. I'm near Seattle and as you know we get rain. So my question about noise was about the rain pounding on it. Anyway, you gave me the answers I was looking for. I will be going back to scraping, sanding, priming and painting my cedar. I have stopped for the winter but was dreaming of a shortcut!Thanks again,steve
*Has anyone used one of the Solid-core vinyl siding brands?? I saw an add for them in FH and in Builder. IT has sharper edges for a more realistic look and it has foam insulation on its back to provide insualtion. Its is also sposta be much more impact resistant that "regular" vinyl.you can see it at the web site at http://www.vinyl-siding.com
*I want to back up what Roger says about Sears. You are much better of with a smaller contractor. I used to sell for them and they would "teach/convince" us salesman that their brand was so much more superior than others. I learned that this wasn't true the first time I went out to a customer that had Sears on her house and saw the siding falling off of the wall. As Roger said, Sears sub'd the work out to a contractor/boiler room who then sub-contracted the intalls. This was 5 years ago and if I remember correctly, they were charging a $1000/square. So if you must have vinyl shop carefully and forget about Sears.
*Steve,A good idea! If I'd realized you were in Seattle, my response would have probably been even a little more specific since your weather is fundamentally the same as here in Portland.It's certainly not my goal to discourage people from getting new siding -- hey, putting up new siding is my business -- but I don't approve of pushing people into when there's no good reason. If you've got a house in one of Seattle's older neighborhoods, and it has a lot of architectural intregrity, then scraping and painting is the right thing to do. Unless you REALLY want to make the jump and go with HardiPlank, which looks exactly like real clapboard once installed.Jon, what you are referring to is like "AmazingSiding," which I referred to in my previous post. As I said, most of the folks in the business consider it amazing that it stays on the walls. Vinyl expands and contracts a LOT, and we always wonder how this bonded stuff manages to survive.Not being a scientist, I will not call all of the claims for these products spurious. But, the insulating value of the foam backing is pretty neglible. And as for dent resistence: baloney. At the Home & Garden shows, they always have comparisons going ... and I can never figure out where they get the "competing" products which are invariably paper-thin. Premium products like Certainteed Monogram (and Kaycan, despite its lower price tag) can withstand extreme high winds and heavy hail without damage.-- Roger
*Do a search on Yahoo for "Revere steel siding." This is the brand that I use (the cedarwood variety). It basically looks like many of the plastic sidings with a lap-board pattern and wood grain finish (many colors). It looks very nice (commonly used in my area in very high end homes > $500,000 +). It will basically last forever, takes a pretty hard blow to dent it, will never fade and doesn't have the expansion and contraction properties of vinyl that causes installation problems if it is nailed down too tight. Again, it is a little more expensive than plastic but you get what you pay for. I will never go back to plastic siding.
*Hi, folks,Jim's second post is still here, I see, but his third and my reply have vanished (something that's happened all over the website).What Jim said in his third and final post was that I was wrong about steel siding rarely fitting in residential neighborhoods. The brand he likes comes in styles to mimic clapboard. It's sturdy, doesn't fade, is good stuff.I replied that I was unfamiliar with the product, but would take a look. I also thought maybe someone ought to write up an article about this metal siding for FHB if -- indeed -- it's a worthy product. I added that, clearly, it must be a far sight better than the steel and aluminum siding that was sold by the predecessors of today's vinyl siding sales people. That siding had lots of problems, both in long-term performance and aesthetics.-- Roger
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I already know what to expect from this one but aside from the boasting rights to owning a 'real rolex', what issues are there with installing vinyl siding over wood clapboards?
Can you install it over existing clapboards and still look good?
Is it noisy?
Won't it help insulate the house?
Is Sears any good? What should I watch out for besides the sales pitch? (Anyone remember the movie Tin Men?)
Are there different brands and quality? Who's the best?
Thanks for any info,
steve