I’m installing a load of those white vinyl (Milgard) windows — 10 or ’em — and now that I’ve nearly completed their installation a friend with more building experience than I tells me that the top flange is best left UN-nailed!
Since I built my openings quite close to the window specs — close enough so as not to need shimming — I had wondered about what might happen with any ‘settling’ of the walls. He tells me that not nailing into the top flange will help the windows not to crack if there IS any settling. Does this make sense? Anyone heard of this? Should I run around pulling out nails from the top-flange now?
Thanks-
Terry
Replies
he is right. Don't nail the topflange. I usually put a nail into the lintel, then bend it over the flange to hold the window in place.
Also, rather than nailing, I use screws and make sure I do not overtighten them. With vinyl window flanges I screw into the middle of the slotted holes.
BTW if you use any trim over the flanges rabbet the trim in the back so it lays flat. If you neglect this the trim will sit crooked .
Do you actually believe this to be important enough that you would recommend going BACK to the 8 windows I've already installed (which don't yet have trim) and PULLING the nails out of the head-flange?
The weird thing is that non of the books that I'm using mentioned leaving the top-flange un-nailed! I could see this as MORE significant with something like aluminum where the substance is rigid ... but again, is it so important with vinyl that I should retrace and eliminate nails that are already in?
It is a judgement call on your part. If the house is old then it has probably settled all it is going to. All the windows I have put in have it in the install manual that you have to nail the top flange. In a new home I shim up the jamb legs so if there is any settling the window will have room to move with the framing and the framing sill wont bow up the window sill. You should always frame a window opening to the specified rough opening and use shims where needed and pin the jambs to the jack studs. This holds the window in affords space for insulation.
Mike,
You say, "All the windows I have put in have it in the install manual that you have to nail the top flange". Is this what you meant to say? Or did you mean that they say NOT to nail the top flange???
T.
if it was my house I would.
Dont nail thru the vinyl jamb into the stud. When insulating watch that you dont put too much insulation between the window and the jamb. It may bow the vinyl window.
I have been installing windows as part of my framing duties for a long time and we never nail the top flange. My advice is to call Milgard and just ask them what they recommend.
"My advice is to call Milgard and just ask them what they recommend."
good idea ... thanks
To get you started, try 1-800-MILGARD.
There is DEFINITELY NO "Do Not Nail" sticker on any of my windows. I'm going to be pissed if they say not to nail them ... this is new construction ... no pamphlet with the windows and no instructions of any kind. Jus ... delivered windows.
Hey .. thanks for the number! I'll call them in the morning.
T.
There always used to be no nail stickers on windows, but now that you mention it I haven't seen them for a couple of years. Its funny how a lot of products that have quite demanding spec.s for installation seem to make it hard to find out what they are.
With vinyl windows I cut slots in the head flange and use roofing nails - not too tight.
Well ... it sure isn't gonna be fun pullin nails outa vinyl for hours.
I went to their website and they have nothing about installation other than "our pro's will do it for you!"
Nice guys. - And now you are being penalized for being conscientious and putting the time in doing what appeared to be a thorough job.
I have a call in to Milgard and we'll see what the horse's mouth has to say.
T
Just spoke with "Rick" at Milgard.
"Absolutely the top flange should be nailed if it is level and plumb"
Then ... "hold on a minute .. there's a gentleman here who would know even better than I do ..."
Then ... "Well ... ah ... it appears that ... ah ... I may have ... ahhhh ... I .. ahhh ... the word is .. ah ... NO.
Me: "What?! .. you mean .. 'no' do NOT place screws or nails into the top flange?!"
Rick: "That's right .. that's what he's saying ... he's saying do not ... under any circumstances."
Me: "Say .. why is there no warning to this effect or notice of any kind?"
Rick: "Well wasn't there any sticker on the window?"
Me: "Definitely not ... and this was a load of 11 windows ... not a single note or sticker to that effect"
Rick: "Huh .. I dunno .. yeah .. I thought there were stickers.
=====================
So .. there you have it. Even 'Rick' .. "Head of Application" didn't know until he was told by someone else who had had some experience with it.
So .. to pull the nails or not .. my headers are over-built and strong and properly done .. may just leave it as is.
Thanks -
T.
newbuilder,
If there is a load on the headers, they will shrink down from the top anyway. If there is no load on them it depends more on your nailing pattern.
Ron
Ron,
The issue may not be just shrinkage of the header. Loads on it may cause it to deflect. I have personally had to replace a window that was shattered by the warping of a header. Window was about 4' wide, built up header. The outer header piece warped down and because it was fastened to the top of the frame it applied enough pressure to the window to cause the glass to shatter from the force.
I was a little surprised about this whole thing... So today at work, I read the install instructions on 2 brands of vinyl windows that I have used recently (not Milguards). Nothing is mentioned about not nailing the top flange - so maybe it is brand specific.
Here is the Q that begs asking though re the Milguards: If you are definitely not supposed to nail the top flange why does the top flange have nailing holes in it? :-)
Here is the Q that begs asking though re the Milguards: If you are definitely not supposed to nail the top flange why does the top flange have nailing holes in it? :-)
====================================
Yeah ... I wondered that also. But then I figured that, like anything these daize, it's a matter of efficiency and profit; not to have to have an added movement in their construction ... keeping track of and building the top flange differently. "Easier" just to say 'don't nail that' ... :(
I find this discussion interesting to say the least. We always nail, loosely albeit, with roofing nails, every other hole around the window when installing vinyl windows. And I ask as well, why holes in the flanges if no nails are recommended? Seems to me, since most manufacturers control their own product design, they could easily come up with an alternative to the top flange design to fit this specification. Usually burning questions like this hit me on a Saturday night or a long weekend, but its Tuesday tomorrow and I intend to call the following local and/or national window companies we've dealt with:Rivco
Marvin
Alside
Harvey
PatriotI'll post their responses here as I'm sure I'm not the only one curious.
We don't nail the top flanges either, I thought they should put the nail slot vertical on the header flange. Almost like a piece of vinyl siding. Maybe like a 1/2" tall slot. I will remember before I forget.
Sorry GB, meant to be addressed to all. I will remember before I forget.
Complete fastening of the nailing fin around the
perimeter of the unit with 2 roofing nails 2 from
each corner and spaced every 6--8 (152--203) on
center.
Marvin Clad Window Instructions.
If you don't follow the manufacturer's specs, you've voided the warantee, or that's what the manufacturer's rep will say if there is a warantee issue.
Windows are built differrently and some need to be attached on top and some don't. Some designs are sensitive to any binding and vinyl windows will do strange things when hot.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
As a side note, GB above listed 5 window manufactures: 87992.24
I've never heard of 3 of the 5, nor have I heard of Milguard. Therefore, my guess is that many vinyl window mfgs do business on a regional basis.
And, BTW - Have we established that window manufacturers other than Milguard specifically say not to nail the top flange in their install instructions?
"...but its Tuesday tomorrow and I intend to call the following local and/or national window companies we've dealt with: ...|"
------------------------------------------------------
No calls made on this today after all?????????????
T.
Nope, I ended up working all day, never got to it. but I will tomorrow -- promise.
Nope, I ended up working all day, never got to it. but I will tomorrow -- promise.
================
cool!
OK, here's the scoop:I called the following manufacturer's and elicited a chuckle from most of them when I explained my inquiry, all had stated they had never heard of any requirement of not nailing the top fin.Rivco: nail it, spacing every other one, somewhat loosely to allow for expansion and movement. "That's why the nail holes are cross shaped, to allow the window to move along the nail."Patriot: Absolutely, nailed loosely, "Window should float from the top fin."Harvey: They directed to nail each and every hole, how tight or loose was not known or in their literature. "Why have the holes there if you aren't going to want them nailed?"Marvin: They don't sell a vinyl window product and their fiberglass framed products don't have the high amount of expansion, nor do they have nailing fins. He used the opportunity to sell me on their product.Pella: "Never heard of such a thing, always nail, every other one, lose enough to allow for movement."Anderson: Called their national helpline, was a bit of a pain to get to a live person, but he directed me to their online pdf file which stated nailing the fins all around as part of the installation process.So there you have it. I should have placed a bet on this. You'd have to come up and buy me breakfast:)
I just came back from my LY. Asked the older counter guys about this issue. ( Average time in the business is about 25 yrs, all of them have handled thousands of window orders during their time behind the counter). The consensus was that until 2 yrs ago all the metal (Aluminum) and vinyl windows sold out here had the "No Nail" stickers and rule. No longer however, now there are no stickers requiring the no nails at the head. .Times have changed apparantly , but only in the last few years here.
I am really surprised by the uniformity of these responses!
ESPECIALLY since it was clear to me that at Milgard one very experienced guy said yes and another very experienced guy said no. Then .. I got a call back from the head of window sales with a slimily non-committal answer stating that "our pro's will know onsite whether or not to nail the top depending on how 'green' the wood is ... relating to how great the expected shrinkage will likely be"
For EVERYONE you asked to say "yes .. nail away" ... and, again, especially since so many here said not to .. really quite amazing.
THANKS for your pursuit of this!
T.
Maybe this anomily with the Milguards is because they are sold in a geography where green (or at least non-kiln dried) framing lumber might be used. As an a-side I can't imagine why anyone would want to use non kiln dried framing lumber...
Matt,
It wasn't just Milgard, I remember EPI, Viking, Crestline and MilGard all having the same tags on them. Those are windows commonly used when building in this area.
I was wondering if there were other brands, but couldn't remember that far back in the thread... :-)
Anyway, what do you think about the non-kiln dried lumber theory?
Edited 4/5/2007 9:21 pm ET by Matt
Here most kiln dried lumber is worse quality than the "green " or air dried we can buy. Plus the framing stock here (at least where I buy from ) is a mix Graded as HEM-FIR. The KD Hemlock splits if you look at sideways when it comes to nailing, especially toe nailing.
For other parts of the country if you are buying KD stock from the PNW the reason it is KD is that it is not a good investment to ship water , it weighs too much and shipping is done by weight not volume. During the winter months we get so much rain that everything gets soaked anyway , ( I know , I know, framing lumber doesn't absorb the water, ) so the entire frame is awash in water no matter whether the lumber is KD or Air dry or Green. Disclaimer: these are just my thoughts , others may and probably do have different opinions
So, I guess my point is that perhaps not nailing the top flange has something to do with the quality of framing lumber commonly used and the shrinkage or stability of that lumber.
That little bit of back and forth that you had with the crack customer service department at Milgard is just a little taste of what most of us, that make our living in construction, go through on a daily basis. The lack of consistency across almost all areas of our trade really grinds on me sometimes. But, I did learn some new information because of your thread so that was a good thing. And while you may not be dealing with Milgard anytime soon, I have two houses worth of their windows to set next week. I will be in touch with our local rep and see what he has to say about this thread.
I agree about the irregularity in the trade, but you know what? I think that's our fault for not demanding some standards.
I agree, however after over 30 years of fighting what I hope was the good fight, I find that my enthusiasm and energy level have diminished somewhat. I will count on you to carry on.
What area do you kive in? Just curious...
I work in beautiful sunny Southern California, where every day is an ultra violet one. My brother is a construction manager in the Raleigh area, he still misses the left coast.
Some years ago, I worked for a co that was based in LA. Although I never lived there, I went out there for work maybe 10 times, one time for 10 weeks. It's hard to put one's finger on it, but people seemed to have a totally different mindset and liefstyle.
On the plus side for Raleigh, our cost of living isn't too high, and we have less traffic :-) People seem to be nicer here than other places I have lived.
Thanks for doing the hard digging. That clears up a lot. I wondered where those Don't Nail stickers had gone.
Half the time I must admit that even though I may not have always nailed the top flange directly, my trim nails probably did anyway.
I believe you are right.
All the flange material for the windows is the same, Keeps it easy for the manufacturer. More than once I have noticed that there is no symmetry to the slot or hole location between sides of the windows. It looks as if the flange material comes in a roll and they just cut off whatever length they need for a side , top or bottom.
Edited 4/2/2007 9:06 pm by dovetail97128
On solid vinyl windows the perimeter frame is integral with the nailing flange. I have put in a lot of the Jeld-Wen Windowmaster vinyl units, and the stickers never say to omit nailing the top. If you have a windstorm, the negative pressure on the leeward side tries to suck the window out of the hole it's in. Especially on a wider window, the top flange is an integral part of keeping the window in the hole.I like the idea of the vertical slots up top, though.Bill
Bill,
Interesting. I have installed a lot of Milgards and the flange is heat welded to the rest of the frame .
MilGard definitely pasted a "do not nail sticker" on their windows a slate as last year when I installed them both at my own house and at two clients houses. I have never understood the "Do Not Nail" from the perspective of holding the window in place during wind events, So I am with you on that part of it. I always ensured the trim above the window was well nailed just above the flange line just for that reason. I also like the idea of slots at the head flange.
Edited 4/3/2007 12:08 am by dovetail97128
>> I have never understood the "Do Not Nail" from the perspective of holding the window in place during wind events, So I am with you on that part of it. I always ensured the trim above the window was well nailed just above the flange line just for that reason. <<
I'm assuming these windows can be bought with integral J-channel for vinyl siding houses (yea that that's right, the V word (-: ) In this case, if there is no trim around the window other than the window frame itself and then there would be NOTHING holding the top of the window other than good intentions and maybe some flashing tape or a bent over nail. This would be of particular concern with twin windows.
Twin vinyl windows are often flimsy anyway.... I refuse to use triples or quads - I'd much rather gang together multiple single units with stud pockets between.
Milgard recomends NOT nailing head flange.
Usually there is a sticker on the head flange that says "DO NOT NAIL"
Best practice I know of is to nail above the flange by 1/4" and bend the nail down over the flange.
Now this is in Oregon, maybe in other areas Milgard has differant recomendations.
If the vinyl windows are double hung you may want to consider shimming on either side of the meeting rail, unless they really do fit that tight. I've learned the hard way that vinyl windows can bow out in the middle, which makes the sashes fit rather loosely.
Also, regarding settling of the house, this often occurs after the house is roofed and sheetrocked, but can be minimized at door and window openings if one ensures the basic good framing practice of being sure there are no gaps between the headers and jack studs. If there are gaps, drive shims tightly in to fill them.
I just installed several all-vinyl windows and they offered no installation guide. I didn't put any screws in the top flange and I only installed screws in every other hole on the remaining flanges. Should fasteners be installed in EVERY slot along the side and bottom flanges?New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
Instructions I have read said at least every other slot.
I am DUMB FOUNDED!! I have never heard of anyone not nailing the top flange of any window. It begs the question? WHY? If you are not supposed to nail it..... why do they bother to put it on the window to begin with??? If you have jacks under the header it will not put any pressure on the window. If you have a wood or vinyl sided house, everything will shrink or settle at the same ratio. If you have a brick or stone veneer house, you must allow at least 1/2" under the window for settling. Milgard's web site provides specific nailing/anchoring of all vinyl windows, and there is no mention of "not nailing" the top flange. I am no expert, and am always willing to learn. I have not seen any posts that can explain why you should not nail the top flange.
I have not seen any posts that can explain why you should not nail the top flange.
-------------------------
I think it has been pretty well established through this thread that many (not all!) feel that the reason for not nailing the top flange is that the top needs to be 'open' and not be 'forced' down with 'settling' as the new wood shifts and adjusts. If the flange is nailed the top of the window would be pushed down with this settling.
I've just intsalled about 10 windows (have one more LARGE one left to do) and I DID nail the top flange. So .. that's why I asked about it and now I'm still convinced that there are obviously many who DO nail it.
I'm still waiting to hear back from the poster who said she'd call five different companies and see what the consensus was.
T.
Interesting question and following comments. My question is, what does the code say? I know local code down here requires 1 1/2" roofers around the perimeter of the window, although the inspector looks the other way if the bottom flange is not nailed.
Brian...Bayview Renovation
Our code doesn't address it, other than windows must be installed per manufacturer's recommendations.
OTOH, since we went to IRC, they have gotten a lot stricter on wind load issues. Now a days we have to have wind load stickers on all windows - DP30 I think it is for our specific area. I'd bet $5 that most vinyl windows wouldn't meet the mfg wind load specs without being nailed around the perimeter.
Edited 4/5/2007 6:55 pm ET by Matt
I don't recall reading anything about in the code books, either IBC or BOCA and frankly, I don't feel like getting up, walking across the room and thumbing through them either. OH well.I do believe though that there is something in the IBC about building with green wood.
Terry,
Your local building inspector should require you to secure the windows to the structure per the manufactures instructions. In addition, your window warranty will be void if windows are not properly installed.
As for settling of the house, the foundation should be on solid material and all roof and beam loads carried to the solid foundation via studs and properly sized beams. As a builder you should over build, go beyond the minimum code, to prevent structural movement ... not take shortcuts to mask a problem or construction deficiency. In case you are wandering, I am a building inspector in NC.
>> In case you are wandering, I am a building inspector in NC. <<
Now you let the cat out of the bag... :-)
Any news on when the new residential code will be adopted?
What county/city/town do you work for?
I just installed 11 all-vinyl windows. Ran a generous bead of caulk behind every flange, placed a screw in every slot, and tightened them all securely.
Big mistake? We'll see. They're my own windows, so it will be entirely my own loss if I screwed up. New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
We are hearing the IRC with NC Amendments will be adapted in June '07 giving builders and inspectors a 6 month initiation period with fully implementation and enforcement starting in Jan. '08
I work in Gaston Co.
What part of NC are you located?
Raleigh.
I was thinking about this again today while I was installing a window. The whole thing is sheathed in 1/2" ply and nailed off. The nails in the top flange hit the 2" x 6" framing the opening at the head, not the 2" x 10" lintel. Where is it going? Why not nail it?
Your local building inspector should require you to secure the windows to the structure per the manufactures instructions. In addition, your window warranty will be void if windows are not properly installed.
=====================
This statement of yours would ring valid IF there were ANY unanymity on this matter. I CALLED Milgard and got THREE OPPOSING answers from the TOP GUYS at the company in charge of "application" and "installations".
1st guy: "Absolutley .. nail them".
2nd guy: "No! Under NO circumstances nail them".
3rd guy: "Hire us and our pro's will no relative to 'moisture content' of your framing!" (yeah ... right ..)
So there ARE NO "per the manufacturers instrucions" And there is no absolute protocol on installation that would affect warranty! Maybe it's left "loose" so they can void it either way if it is to their advantage ... who knows?
If Milgard does not supply a set of instructions for their windows then I would suggest following the AAMA (American Architectural Manufactures Association) guidelines for window installation. Their site is:
http://www.aamanet.org/
http://www.aamanet.org/