Waste Vent Rough in Load Bearing Wall
DesignBuild
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Do I have anything to worry about with this proposed vent rough-in? (see attached pic). My concern is can I drill the studs as shown? I know maximum diameter is 40% of the stud or 1-3/8″, or you can go to 60% if the studs are doubled up (no more then 2 consecutive). Are the cripples considered load bearing because they are in a load bearing assembly – even though they do not carry any load? This is an exterior wall so I’d rather pack it full of insulation not studs.
Looking forward to your thoughts. Thanks
Sean
Replies
yur cripples aren't load bearing...
use a stud shoes to repair the bored studs...
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/HSS-SS.html
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
DesignBuild.
Where is this? Anyplace where freezing is an issue? If so don't put plumbing in outside walls!
it's a vent frenchy..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IMERC
I'm not familar with New Jerseys' weather but if it gets cold for prolonged periods of time frost will build up on the inside untill the pipe is plugged. I didn't pay attention to the wall thickness but a 3 inch vent in a 2x4 wall leaves less than 1/4 inch of insulation on either side. Around here you simply do not put plumbing in outside walls.
Our kitchen sink is exactly like that (except that the window is narrower). Has frozen up once, in 77-78, I think it was, when we had some prolonged subzero weather. Drain cleaner cleared it right out.Of course the water pipes come through the cabinet floor.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Heck Frenchy; if you put anything near the outside walls in Minnesota it'll freeze, wont it? Sometimes even in summer I hear (ha, ha)
Here in the lower northeast, we have a tame and tolerable winter comparitively.
Comes with it's drawbacks, though. Termites, more mold problems in summer, etc.
JeffinPA
Sometimes inner walls as well?
I hate the cold and all those other four letter words like snow and Icee. But our summer are nice and the hunting is good (as long as you hunt for the state bird (the misquito) lately though the state is putting a minimum size on them.. those little baby misquitos under 30 pounds are now protected..
Real sportsmen never mount anything less than 130 pound ones..
Geez frenchy. I didnt figure you'd have mosquitos out there. That's a common problem.
My aunt and uncle have a farmette outside the twin cities and I have been wanting to come out and do some hedgerow hunting for years, but have not ventured there yet.
What?? The mosquito is the Minnesota state bird.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
JeffinPA
well don't leave small children unattended, a few bigger misquito's have been known to carry small children and dogs off. If you must leave them unattened tieing a stout rope around them will prevent all but the most determined misquito from carring them off..
As for our population of misquitos Minnesota is the land of 10,000 lakes and millions of bogs swamps wetlands and ponds.. If we picked up Minnesota and squeezed it out over the arrid southwest, it would quickly bloom into a tropical paradise... Then next week we could do it all over again..
Yeah, in June I was biking up in the Iron Range area, and the bugs damn near sucked me dry. Those tiny black flies were worse than the mosquitos (blood literally running down my legs several times), but at least you didn't feel them and their bites didn't itch (much).
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
A guy up in Elmendorf AFB in Alaska pumped 80 gallons of fuel into skeeter before he realized it wasn't a plane.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Sphere,
Musta been a small one on vacation from Minnesota.. ;-)
(you don't think I'll let you top me in the tall tales department do you?) Remember Babe the blue Ox was a smll ox who got drained by misquito's..
LOL.
hey, merry chris moose to you and yours.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Sphere and Merry christmas to you and yours.. see you at the debates ;-)
Like I said, our kitchen drain is in the exterior wall and it's only frozen once, in -30F weather.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
wow -- ask 10 people how to vent a waste line and you'll get 10 different answers. Honestly I love this forum because of the different perpsectives you get on how to tackle these situations. I think I'm going to pick up the phone and speak to the plumb. insp. about the AAV (MAV) -- that would be my preferred way to do this. Unfortunately they're out all week for the Holiday and I was hoping to get this done. Even if they do sometimes malfunction they are easy to replace since they are not buried in the wall. This is my house so that is not a big deal, I understand the hesitation some expressed about the AAV's in customers houses - wanting to avoid the call-backs and the possible unwarranted reputation hit.thanks again -- oh, I'll defintely be bringing the supply lines up through the base cabinet even though I usually don't like the look of it.Sean
DanH
That's "cause you-all from the south,, southern minnesota that is.. ;-) actualy I think it says more about the heat you're losing thru that wall than the wisdom of putting plumbing in the wall.
A bit of both, probably. But a drain can't freeze unless there's water in it. And it won't freeze if water is flowing through it. The thing that'll kill you is a slow drip-drip from the tap, or a sink-full of water slowly leaking past the stopper.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
thanks for the quick replies -- IMERC - I actually just found those simpson ties right after I posted, they should alleviate any code issues correct?Frenchy -- I'm in Jersey, so it does get cold and freezing could be an issue I suppose. I will be re-insulating with spray-in foam and the pipes are coming from a conditioned space below -- in all my years I have never had a problem with frozen pipes in my area. What would my option be otherwise -- to come up through through the floor of the base cabinet? I never really liked that because it kills some of the useability(sp?) of the cabinet.
thanks for the quick replies -- IMERC -
no problemo
they should alleviate any code issues correct?
yup..
What would my option be otherwise -- to come up through through the floor of the base cabinet?
yup...
I never really liked that because it kills some of the useability(sp?) of the cabinet.
can run the horizontal thru the base of the cab???
you may have venting issues...
we put vents in exterior walls here and the wet up thru the base away from the wall...
you should do fine..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Where is this? Anyplace where freezing is an issue? If so don't put plumbing in outside walls!"
When I need to run supply lines in an exterior wall, I've had good luck keeping the lines near the drywall (use protective plates where they go thru framing), and filling in the stud cavity airtight behind and above them with 2" of rigid foam. The heat coming through the drywall keeps them from freezing. If possible, I try not to seal the cavity tightly, e.g., I'll either vent it to the room where possible, or leave some gap around the pipes, covering the gap loosely with an escutcheon, so some warm air can get in.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I'd be concerned.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
it's the DWV stack.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm concerned because I see the trimmer and king stud getting hacked up. The header that they support seems to be relatively long and might possibly be carrying some substantial loads. His situation might be okay and it might be less than okay. I'd be considering other options. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I understand all the concerns that have been mentioned, and I appreciate all of the feedback. I feel like a kitchen sink centered on a window is the most common kitchen layout I have ever seen -- so how do all of these concerns you raise usually get addressed? Is it the length of my window that creates the complication -- since it requires going through more studs and also needs a much longer header span, thus greater loads to transfer to the trimmers? I'm not sure if it matters, but this is ranch so I'm only carrying the ceiling above and roof - no second floor.Should I just go with an AAV? I'm not sure if they are code compliant in my township yet.thanks again -- keep the discussion going
Like Frenchy, I lived in a house with waste lines in the outside wall. They froze at an elbow during a holiday. Not fun.I would suggest the wider wall as suggested by Imerc. Or I would suggest a furrd out pony wall to the height of the cabinets. Or I would run the drain line inside the cabinets. I know I would run the drain line inside the cabinets. I do things like that. No one will know if you don't tell them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
19"cabs and run the line between the cabs and the finished wall...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
On a kitchen I have going now the bases are 30" deep.
24" deep cabinet but the side skins are run past the back of the box 6" for plumbing to be ran without ever seeing the works.
Mechanical vent is going to be used, granite tops to be templated after cabinets are set. Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
what did you did do for the counter top???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Granite is being templated for it.
After we set the base cabinets. Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
30" deep base cabs... with a space behind...
Would you say that is kind of unusual?
The depth is a little unusual, at least compared to a normal kitchen base cabinet.
But the side skins are 30" and the actual box is 24" so the plumbing can be ran behind the back skin of the box. Never to be seen again.
The granite top covers all of it up. The top will probably come in around 31".
I think we'll start setting cabinets on the 26th or 27th. We were supposed to get them on Thanksgiving. But issues arose at the custom cabinet shop in the finish stages of the cabinets. Some issues with the crackle finish or something.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
That would be my second choice Matt.There is one thing that I don't like about it. The upper cabinets would be 6" further away. That wouldn't bother me too much but the women folk might be negatively affected. A suitable compromise would be a 2" furr out so the cabinets would have a 26" depth. I saw that in a bathroom that I owned. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
good point.. 2x6 exterior wall along with these...
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/HSS-SS.html
in the cab base is the next option..
saw yur post to say... don't put plumbing in an exterior wall...
and (see the trimmer and king stud getting hacked up.) you know plumbers live and breathe for occasions like these...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Are mechanical vents allowed in your area? They've been around for a long time now and are code approved in most areas. Would solve this problem very easily, we use them all the time in situations like these. Just place approved sized unit 4" above the tee, thread into a female fitting and keep accessible for future maintainence and you're done.They're even more previlent in Europe but we American builders are always skeptical to change ( me included). Oatey is the maker of one brand. Chuck
I'm not sure if the mechanical vents are allowed -- anyone know the best way to find that out? I know we use the 2006 IRC. I would much rather go that route, its much less material, time to install and alleviates every problem that this thread has brought up (except the supply lines in exterior walls).If anyone from Jersey is on here and knows about the AAV mechanical vents, lets hear it. I know a friend of mine has used them in his house but he also wasn't permitted, therefore no inspectors to say otherwise.
Shouldn't be much of an issue in my book, but I don't like the fact that you will have a hole in your roof where ice dams could form.
Stack your framing, rafters/trusses directly over studs. Then there won't be any weight on the knuckle in your plates.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
Edited 12/22/2007 3:39 pm ET by MattSwanger
Just use a "studer valve". You wont have to drill anything. not only that but you'll save time and a roof penetration.
Edited 12/21/2007 7:57 pm ET by MSA1
Locally an Air Admitance Valve passes code. North central Ohio.
A two inch drain line is used, the trap adapter is 1 1/2 inch, two inch continues on up a minimum of 6 inches to the AAV.
I would put the water and drain lines up through the floor of the cabinet, this also allows the AAV to be changed if needed.
Around here there is an extra fee on the permit if you use an AAV.
Call the local plumbing inspector and ask if an AAV is permitted and what they require in this type setup.
I hate AAVs (Studor vent) but sometimes they are really kind of necessary - like this situation. If freezing is a concern run the supply and DWV through the floor of the cabinet. Another way to combat this is to put a toe kick hot air supply duct below the sink cab. The leakage alone gives a little extra heat when it's needed.
If an AAV isn't allowed (I'd be interested to hear about that), then run the waste pipes behind the cabinets like others suggested above. That would require the 19" base cabinets. Or, for extra ugliness inside the cabinets stub the waste pipe out to the right side of the window and run it through the cabinets after the cabinet install. The vent will still have to be run up the wall but this way you won't be hacking up the jack or king studs. You will still have to drill the top plates, in which case you need to be sure that a joist or rafter isn't bearing above the stud bay with the hacked top plate. If a joist or rafter has to bear there, add another stud below the joist/rafter to get the bearing away from the compromised top plates. You will need one of those big nail plates (something like 4"x12 or 16) to restore some of the lateral strength to the top plates.
Assuming the kitchen sink is a double bowl another thought is as follows. In some jurisdictions you can use one trap rather than 2 and downsize the size of the waste pipe. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me but it was recommended to me by a plumbing inspector for this very situation that you have.
As far as the guy above who said something about running a 3" vent off a kitchen sink, that's an excellent example of how he constantly makes statements about stuff he really has no knowledge of. I think he smokes crack and the moderator aught to somehow limit his posts to only the business folder as that is the only area that I've seen any real good advice come from him... :-)
Whats the matter with studer valves?
Lifes short, find something worth hating to spend resources on.:>)
>> Whats the matter with studer valves? <<
They periodically malfunction and I always get it in the form of "what's that horrible smell comming from under the sink and what are you gonna do about it?" Actually they don't malfunction that often, but I still avoid plumbing whenever possible.
>> Lifes short, find something worth hating to spend resources on.:>) <<
You are right. I hate that word hate. :-) It's a pretty strong word.
Use an island style vent if possible.
watz an "island vent"?
View Image
I once had to use a double loop to vent a basement bathroom addition. The inspector rolled his eyes and allowed it since AAVs are not yet allowed locally and he couldn't figure out how to vent it any other way.
We are still stuck with air gaps for the DW even if it is equipped with a backflow preventer. I hope they adopt the IRC soon, I don't even have a copy of the California Building Code.
Kurt
Where are you building? Cambodia?
I'd contact the township Plumbing Inspector. Jersey is IRC so legally, you should be able to vent from below and come up with a 1 sized oversized trap, however, each inspector has his own interpretation of the code and may or may not allow certain things. I would not use a MAV, cause you can vent it properly.
The vent actually goes up above the drain and then does a U and drops back down thru the floor and then can go around the structural members and back up outside of them. It is wacky and some inspectors will allow other items.
Check the manufacturers info on the Shoes. I can tell you I used them one time and by the time a got done putting the dozens of nails into all the holes (amazingly I did not hit any pipes) the stud that was previously very flimsy was the stiffest stud in the wall cavity.
Re. drains in exterior walls, we built hundreds of homes in So. Jersey between 93-2000 and all the kitchen drains and vents were in the exterior wall. Chink well with insul and make sure you dont have any air getting thru the walls. Run your supplies up thru the bottom of the cabinet tight to the back wall and all should be well.
what's a "MAV"?
and... you said >> Jersey is IRC so legally, you should be able to vent from below and come up with a 1 sized oversized trap, however, each inspector has his own interpretation of the code and may or may not allow certain things. << ...
>> The vent actually goes up above the drain and then does a U and drops back down thru the floor and then can go around the structural members and back up outside of them. <<
Huuuh??? Are you talking about a wet vent or what??? Got a pic?
Sorry Matt, Mechanical Air Vent, is MAV.
I dont have a pict. I have never ventured into the cad stuff. That is basically what the IRC describes and I have not seen any pictures of it other than what the plumbers have installed.
Re. oversizing the pipe, I have the IRC code book in front of me and you would size the trap to the requirements of code (1 1/2") and then have a horizontal run of minimum of 8" of 1 1/2" pipe and then jump to 2" elbow down, and run 2" down no more than 36" and then you need to jump up another pipe size which is 3", elbow over and then vent back up. Now that a look thru it, sounds like way too much to deal with.
Re. that loop vent contraption, it is under "Island Fixture Venting" and is basically a U back down and then over and up to vent.
Regardless of code, I would definietly pay a call to your inspector. Many like people calling ahead of time though some of them are a PIA.
What township are you in? I worked in So Jersey, Burlington, Camden Co's and Atlantic County mostly.
Oh - OK - if you hada said loop vent I probably would have picked up on it.
BTW - I'm not the OP, nor do I live in Jersy. We don't use the plumbing part of the IRC here in NC.
A, ha. Hi Matt.
I worked in Raleigh, Cary, and Wake Forest back in the late 80's. Learned a lot in the 1 year I was there, but am not a plumber, just a builder who likes to get educated on different stuff.
Have a great Christmas and holiday season.
>> just a builder who likes to get educated on different stuff <<
Me too.
And Merry Christmas to you too!
just bolt you a metal plate to the 2x