water based poly floor finish appearance
I have 2200sf of rift & quarter white oak Owens engineered flooring, glued over an epoxy moisture barrier (Titebond 531), on a 40 yr old concrete slab. The installer is reputable & the technique was textbook – no issues. The grain was “popped” in flooring parlance (aka “sizing” to me) then given two coats of stone gray stain, which were wiped on & wiped off. One coat of sanding sealer, and two coats of water based poly were applied (Duraseal 2000, 2-part), with complete drying, screening, and thorough cleaning between coats. Ambient temps & humidities also not at issue.
The problem, which is a little difficult to describe, is that it looks as if the finished surface is “bubbled” (not literally) or otherwise “lifted” or “raised” at the open grain areas – as though it were not sanded properly. There are random spots (very few, very small areas) where the finish seems normal, that is they are visibly smooth, and smooth to the touch – the open grain areas are detectable but as “valleys” which you would anticipate in the absence of a grain filler, and the low build character of the water based poly. The condition in question reads as “ridges” to the eye & touch, and its everywhere.
The sample done to confirm the “popping” and stain color process, does not have the sealer & poly coats, and does not appear to have this surface problem, which leads me to believe the problem is in one or more of the top coats.
My furniture/cabinetmaker buddy thinks the problem is in the original sealer coat, which I didn’t touch, but did have the same surface appearance only more so – which should have gone away with the subsequent screenings.
Anybody have any insight?
Replies
Could it be "fish-eye" that you are seeing? Stearated abrasives ( you said screens, but just guessing here) are notorious for that with some wb finishes.
For a glass flat floor I'd say not filling the grain may have contributed to a sunken pore situ.
Sorry I don't have much else.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Thanks Sphere. Not sure I know what is fish eye?
The screening was actually maroon pad buffing, I didn't rub it after they ran the pads but it looks smooth then, dull, but smooth. And to clarify, we're not trying to achieve glass flat, 'sunken pores' as I understand your phrase, is exactly what the grain surface should look & feel like...
The material rep is coming out to the job, but the sub's current plan is to maroon pad and poly a third time, but I'm not sure that's going to work. The sub is accomodating, but doesn't think it looks "bad", contrary to everyone else whose seen it. The sub says its from the grain popping, but if it is I think you ought to see it/feel it on the unsealed sample too.
fisheye is casued when there is a comtainage on the wood that cause the finish to be repelled.http://www.woodshopnews.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=2593E13D061C4EAEB7893E7F912D35F4&nm=Archives&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&tier=4&id=0C0D6DDA0AC84806A903345ACF1B30A4.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Fih eye is normally from silicone contamination or wax, if the abrasives used had any exposure to stuff like Armorall or some furniture polishes..they can contaminate the new surface..just sayin.
Also, as far as "popping' the grain, ( I call it what it is, Raising the grain) it is also very possible that the surface was abraded TOO much when smoothing the raised nibs, and the grain re-popped. I have done it my self..re-sanding a tad too much and you are back to un-popped wood..lol.
Without actually seeing what you have, it's a tuff call.
In addition as a second thought, you said it is rift and quarter sawn, could the defects be more pronounced at the Medulary ray flakes? They are much denser and do not take finish the same as the surrounding wood..surface tension can cause the finish to creep away from these hard, slick spots and create a divot.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Shoulda used shellac !!!!
I know yer being funny, but actually you are right. I use shellac for sealer almost exclusivly, not for all top coats, and almost never on a floor, but as the first seal coat..I love it.
You think shellac would shine them slates up a bit :)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I'm using blood instead .
Don't you miss those daily gashes and the eye blinding glare from your copper life ??
LOL.Not much. That blinding glare is what causes them cuts.
Actually I am still doing quite a bit of CU. A parapet cover, some gable return caps, and possibly 12 sq. of flatseam.
I was fretting over a tricky spot on my house for a while, I finally just made up some galvy to cover it over..can't afford copper for my own shack.! By the time I bought the scaffold and brake, I was lucky I could scrounge a roll of Galvy left over from a customer.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
H used the term popping the grain or SIZING IT. I have never heard of sizing except in wallpapering and shirts.So maybe he is talking about raising the grain.But to me popping the grain means applying a dye, stain, or oil to visually increase the appearance of the grain patterns..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
To me, popping it means using something water-based to make the raw hair wood fibres stand up so they can be sanded off smoother.
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Too me, popping my wood would get me in trouble...and has.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Wait a min...While I climb back into my chair here...LMAO
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm not sure either. I do a couple refinish jobs a year. I've never used a pad for between coat sanding. The pad method in my common sense way of thinking would not shear the fibres off smooth. It would be more of a beat them down and round them over sort of thing. I've consistently used a 120-150 grit sanding screen between coats which results in a very clean level surface.
I'm not a big proponent of WB finish either. There always seems to be something that causes problems. You are always hearing about another bad experience. I really hope your problem has an easy fix. Somehow I doubt it. 2200' is a lot of floor.
If it is a product related problem I would be curious to hear what they will do for you.
good luck
Gary
How long between the stain and the first coat of sealer? between the spit coat and the stain?
what's the stain? oil?
Is the sealer water based also?
The use and location of the sanding sealer is what sounds suspect to me.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
In all my years I've never used a sanding sealer. You may have a good point.
Gary
A lot of sanding sealers have waxes and stearates that make for bad bonds and chemical conflicts with many finishes.
The one I have used specifies on the label not to be used under polyurethenes - or maybe it is the polyurethenes that specify not to be used over sanding sealers.most of the time that is also modified in that if the sealer has had thirty days curing and/or gets sanded well again, then poly OK over it.
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What product did you use to pop the grain? If oil based, it can take some time for the oil to dry. If you don't wait until it is compeletely dry (maybe a week or more for tung oil) then the oil could bleed from the pores of the wood, leading to the situation you describe.
Billy
To catch up:
I am pretty sure but I am not certain the stain was water base, but it was a Minwax product, color matched to Duraseal Stone Gray (which had been discontinued since it was first selected). I do not know what sealer was used.
Except for the stain brand substitution, the installer completed a similar install/finish last summer using the same process. I didn't see it but they haven't argued that it had the same surface appearance. Our sample board was made up based on that project.
There was at least 24 hours drying time between coats on everything, including the 2 stain coats, and there was a weekend between the sealer & first coat of poly. The poly can be screened & recoated within 6 hours or after 24 - we always go with the 24.
I agree that "popping" the grain ought to refer to somehow making it more prominent, but fairly universal in our local parlance, it refers to raising the grain with water. I was taught this was called "sizing" and you do it between jumping up grits in sandpaper to acheive a smoother finish. The flooring finishers do it in order to acheive better penetration or saturation with semi-opaque stains like white or gray. There is a premium for it, and I've never been told that it affects the smoothness or appearance of the final finish on a floor. I was also taught that sizing open grained woods like oak was of little benefit because of that characteristic - the extra smoothness would be lost in the open grain.
As far as popping wood, well that's a private matter... ;-) you guys are too funny.
To me this doesn't look like swelled fringes of the wood, it does look more like something coming up from the pores - although I don't think you could say its literally bubbled.
I would agree that the maroon pad rubs more than cuts but it does shear off the finish. It may be that they should have actually screened the sealer, rather than maroon pad (I can't confirm which was used) but they may have been being too gentle because the nature of the gray stain can be delicate. The curious part is that if it is just at the sealer level, it seems like the subsequent finishing might be rough but not as pronounced.
My BuildGreen tag line is a clue to the choice of water base finishes. We're doing what we can to deliver what the clients are demanding. And the products are changing very rapidly, so many times we're on the leading edge of field users with no real world record. We first used a water based poly top coat about 8 or 9 years ago, to mixed reviews. But even then it was fairly common in restaurants because of the low odor & fast dry times which are helpful when it comes time for maintenance re-coats. Turns out its also harder than oil based but of course doesn't build a sheen like oil based poly.
As a footnote, the funny thing on this project is that despite the VOC compliant glue & finishes, the go to epoxy moisture barrier isn't labeled with its VOC stats like everything else, and while virtually inert when dry, they start & finish their IAQ labeling with EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE. Hey, we do what we can.
I think I should also clarify that the reference "Oil based" which is generally part of the product labeling I am talking about is probably more accurately represented here as "solvent based" or "Oil-modified". Tung Oil or some of the other oils referenced here and in the other flooring finish strings I've read would make a great floor, but the drawbacks are also very real, including the curing time you reference.