There really isn’t a forum with a perfect fit for this question, so I’ll post it here. I have a water well on a property I have purchased. It has a submersed pump, and is 180 feet deep. The well has worked fine for over a year now, but recently started acting up. What it will do is pump the system pressure up to the pressure switch cut-out pressure of 60 lbs., and shut off. When using water, the pressure will decrease of course. The pressure switch is supposed to cut-in at 40 lbs., but it waits until about 5 lbs. before it starts the pump again. There is a pressure tank in the system also, and I “re-calibrated” it to where the instructions for it say to be, 2 lbs less than cut-in pressure I believe, which would be 38 lbs. on a un-pressured system. It was 36 lbs. when I found it, so I doubt that’s it. I have put a total of three pressure switches on it, with no change in the symptoms. I doubt there could be four bad pressure switches, and I get them all. I replaced the gauge in case I was getting bad reads, but the original was correct.
What am I missing?
I’m sure of the cut-out, and cut-in pressures because I am watching the contacts break, and make-up as well as watching the pressure gauge at the same time. I also attached a amp-meter watching the pumps current, which are what the manual for the pump specs.
Edited 12/12/2002 1:51:42 AM ET by MICHAELMOSEL
Replies
Time to pull the pump. Its full of gunk. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
What do you mean, 'pull the pump?' Just like that, you know it's the pump?
I'm not so sure. The problem is, as I understand, the cut-in pressure is supposed to be about 40 pounds, but instead it's not cutting in until 5 pounds? The gauge is good, you're sure? And how do you know the switch is actually cutting in at 5 pounds? Are you watching it and do you hear it click on when the guage is at 5? Because 5 pounds of pressure aint much. You should see your water coming out of your faucets in a trickle before the pump cuts in if this is accurate. If this IS what you're experiencing, then I would guess the gauge is giving you a "good' reading. If this is what's happening, the pressure tank is water-logged or bladder is punctured. I hazard a guess.
The pump doesn't "know" what pressure the tank is at before it is switched on. Therefore, I can't see any connection between your problem and the pump itself. More likely it's either the tank or the switch. But you've replaced the switch. Time to replace the tank. Spend $200 dollars on a new tank before you spend a few thousand to pull and replace a pump which is 180 feet down (yikes! I don't even want to know what that will cost!)
I agree that it seems unlikely to be the pump. If I understand correctly, when the pump comes on, it works great, pumps up to the pressure required. A pump is a relatively simple machine, so if it comes on and builds up pressure, it works. Use a meter or something to see when the switch kicks in and out, so that you are sure.
If the pressure drops to 5 psi, that would mean that you get basically no water out of the taps on the floor above the tank. (5 psi is about 12 ft of water head). Is this happening?
I would not want to spend even $200 dollars with some basic diagnostics to find the problem. Evne $200 is way to much money to just shotgun this see what happens.
And how would a tank fail that would cause this problem?
First where is the switch acutally tripping on. You need a meter to verify that.
And you need to verify what the acuatl pressure is. The trickling water would be a clue. If it is not then get a pressure another pressure guage to verify the pressure.
If the system pressure system is actually getting that low before the switch gets trips (and you have tried several switches) then look for something that is preventing the switch from seing the acutal pressure. That would imply something blocking the pressure. Check the fittings and tubing for junk. Depending on how the pressure switch and the house line taps off the tank it is possible that you have something inside that is floating over the line making it act like a check valve. You might need to move the pressure guage so that it is tapped off next to the pressure switch.
If the switch is tripping at the right point then you need to look at what is between the switch and the pump.
Some pump have an remote box with start capacitor and relay.
Also some systems I have timers in them to limit the cycling where there is low water flow from the pump.
I've been on well systems most of my life, servicing various systems for friends and clients and definitely agree with your logic and troubleshooting on this post.
I will add one consideration tho that would concur with a previous post……………….a submersible pump can produce symptoms like those described if it becomes partially clogged with "gunk" or manages to "inhale" some foreign matter. The symptomatic scenario would go something like this ….the pressure switch would trip "on" at the designated pressure, but the pump would take longer than usual to deliver water to the pressure tank because it's pumping efficiency is impaired. Unless you hear the switch engage, you could be misled into thinking that it hasn't and instead interpret the arrival of the water to the tank as concurrent with power to the pump. Your suggestion of using a meter on the lines to the pump should help separate one occurrence from the other. If the results of this test show a substantial lag between current and water delivery…………..it just might be that the problem is "down there". This very thing happened to a friend of mine about three years ago with his submersible pump to such a degree that the system was unable to exceed 20 psi when it previously had no problem at all achieving 60 psi. We pulled it up, cleared the gunk from the pump, and all has been fine since.
If this is the case (we'll hope not) then it should be taking that pump "forever" to refill the pressure tank and those long refill times should be a clue right now. Let's hope the fault is "upstairs" and that one of your well thought out troubleshooting suggestions leads to a resolution.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thinking along what you said... What if there was a leak in the supply pipe or a bad valve in the pump that caused it to loose prime, or to have a partially empty supply pipe? Maybe the pump should be switched off, pressure drained, allow a few minutes then turn on the pump and see how long it takes to build pressure. Sometimes these simple things arent so simple.
I'm afraid what you bring up are also very real possibilities as well as good thinking on your part, but..........I didn't want to propose too many potential causes at one time. The first thing for this fella to discover is whether the delivery of current to the pump and the arrival of water to the tank are reasonably concurrent. If they aren't, then yes, I'd agree with the points of possible cause you suggest for the poor pumping performance.
If we stay at this long enough, we'll have the poor guy shaking in his boots/wallet about finding and curing the problem.........mission accomplished. Ha!
Honestly tho, I think that the odds are with him, that if he looks and performs the tests that Bill suggested, he's more than likely going to find the problem "above board"......or at least I'm hoping for him that this will prove to be the case.
Sometimes, when you're on a private well and confronting problems, you just can't understand why those folks in the city complain about the size of their monthly water bills. :) City water out this way is dirt cheap IMO ...about $.01 a gallon !!! But........I don't hink they're about to run a pipe ten miles for us....... or at least no one's shown up with an offer to do it.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
If it's a submersible pump, it can't lose prime. However, a leaking supply line could be part of the problem; seems odd that the pressure goes down so low, though.
Agreed. But that's why I asked if he was "sure the switch was actually tripping at 5 pounds." Indeed, in the situation you describe above it might be tripping normally, yet if the water is being used while the pump is trying to fill the tank, the pressure might actually continue to drop before it goes back up. That could be a pump problem. BUT, I don' think that's what the individual was describing. There was no mention of the tank "taking forever to refill"--only that it was cutting in way too late. And as for confirming when and if the the switch is tripping, one only has to sit there and physically see or hear the spring-loaded contacts click to on to be sure.
If the problem is supply related (pump side), you might also check the inline filter (if you have one). If the filter is plumbed before the tank, it may well be clogged and would produce the effect you describe--a cheap fix.
BUT, I still think it's either a tank or tank hardware problem. A person can either call a plumber to check these (and spend $200) or buy an new tank set-up and install it himself (for about $200). If it still doesn't work, at least you have a spanking new tank to use with your new or repaired pump when you get that fixed.
Hoo Boy! There could be a whole host of potential problems. Chances are that the switch is kicking in at the right pressure(he should be abel to verify by watching the guage and listenng to the controller for the click, or feel the tank inlet for the vibration of the incoming water.) Go outside and check around the pitless adapter and from there to the house for signs of settled and/or wet earth for quick and dirty to see if there's a leak in the line. I had a hole in a bushing on the adapter that drove me nuts for several months. The unfrozen puddle in February were the giveaway to my leak. Before that, thought I was going to have another 270' hole put in the ground. $200 repair vs $5500 hole. Also, he could check with the agency that has his well log, and see how much water was over the pump when the system was new. Pulling the pump is still cheaper than punching in a new well!
If your well cap is above ground, it is fairly easy to take the cap off, and look for anything obvious like a leak right there.
You are correct. I missread the post.. Happens to me a lot. DONT PULL THE PUMP.