My friend is considering buying an historical home in Bethlehem, Indiana, which sits on the banks of the Ohio. The town has no city water supply system, nor sewers, and all houses are on wells with septic systems. MY question is, how does the septic system work without spoiling the water in the wells? The town is every bit of four country blocks, and everyone is undoubtedly on the same well, and contributing their septic to the same ground, which is flat. A second problem is, the house has a lot of only 70 feet x 50 feet, and the septic’s “field” probbly doesn’t go beyond it. Wells and septics. Is that like cats and dogs?
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It would be worth your friend's time to explore the option of installing a complete home water treatment system. An internet search will provide a ton of information and a lot of good plumbing supplies can source equipment and sometimes will do onsite evaluation and will design a system for you.
It can get expensive, but in my area a 3-step system is commonly used consisting of a filter (filter medium is tailored to specific impurities, ie. iron, sediment, sulpher, etc). a chlorinator to assassinate the bad guys and an activated charcoal filter to remove the chlorine. Typical installed systems run about $4 to $6K but if you or your friend are competent, it's not an unrealistic DIY project and you can save a couple of grand.
FIRST of all, though, he'll want to get a good test of the water to determine what kind of system will be required.
To do nothing, in the scenario you describe, is dangerous.
Only if you want diseases, Our area has codes in-place that say a septic system and a well has to be a minimum of 100 feet apart from one another. Your soil has natural filtering characteristics. I don't know how deep that well is, but as ground water descends through the different type of soils the solids and pollutants would be filtered out of the water.
Semper Fi
I wouldn't be that concerned. Wells and septic systems have been the norm in the midwest for decades. Don't recall any epidemic of sickness from that.
Most well contamination I've heard of is from chemicals.
I got a gun for my wife, best trade I ever made.
For a small fee your buddy can have the water tested for any contamination.
I highly doubt everybody is on the same well, however they are very likely on the same aquifer. In the small burg that I we all have wells 85' deep give or take (on the same aquifer).
Our county code requires a minimum of 80' separation between well and septic. Before I had a new well put in the old one was about 50" from the septic and had been that way for years.
Scott R.
Edited 11/28/2002 10:17:56 AM ET by Scott R.
We have a chlorinator we bought on the web, replaced a name brand (expensive) unit. Works the same, puts a small amount of bleach in the water.
The day after I installed it, past the point of putting in the box and returning it, a friend told me about his ultraviolet system. He lives in a house that has a well and septic. Used to be a dentist office. Dentist had the ultraviolet system installed.
It's an in-line unit a couple of feet long, sits there and fries the germs. Doesn't do anything for mineral and particle removal, but sure looks like you get the purest water.
Either system available on the web.
Ken
All this is local. Have the well tested and also check with the county health department.
There is a good chance the the well is in a major underground river. The is one that follows the Ohio. Don't know where it is in that area, but it is under downtown Lousiville. A lot of building pump cooling water out of it.
I agree with the previously stated "local situation" Have it checked, but I wouldn't worry about it too much.
My well is in my front yard, my (failing, but that is another story) septic field is in the back. There is nothing to worry about if the well is properly installed.
The septic system on the other hand, there is something to have checked out at your own expense. I'm having serious problems with mine, I went back to my mortgage folder and looked at the "Septic Inspection" It said "No visable problem, system is working properly." At the bottom of the form it said, "Important! septic system is undergroung and therefore not subject to visual inspection."
If I can find it again I'll post a copy. Cheers. Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
Bill, good call. The aquafier (river) you are referring to is the source for most of the county water districts that border the Ohio River.
The "free cooling" water in Louisville is no longer "free". Years ago the Metropolitan Sewer District (MSD) figured out they were treating a lot more waste water than the water company was supplying. Somebody had to pay for that treatment, so all artesian wells were metered as well as domestic water. Treatment cost was applied to total water usage. Virtually all business find it cheaper to use standard HVAC systems than the old "free" cold water sytems.
Dave
Dave
I thought that the article I had read, this was probably close to 40 years ago, that they had two wells and dump the cooling water back. Gee, am I that old.
I grew up in Louisville and went to Speed. I am now in the Kansas City area.
So that makes you a few years older than me, if you went to Speed almost 40 years ago. You went to one of the top twenty engineering scholls in the nation at that time, and it was not a public institution. Did you graduate?
The aquaifier under Louisvile and most of the surrounding river basin is artesian. No pumps needed to get the water up at shallow depts < 100', which puts you below the river bottom in the downtown Louisville area. I worked in an old building that had a capped well in the basement. If the old gauge was correct, it still had about 85 pounds of pressure on an 8" pipe. Pumping water back into the the ground was more expensive than dumping it into the sewer system. MSD started charging for that water in about 1965 or 66. Improvements in chiller plant technology and such made it more cost effective to abbandon the old systems.
Dave
I graduated in 66. UofL was public then.But it was operated by the city and not by the state. My guess is that the state took over around 1970. I remember getting a notice that with $35 and proof that I was "contributing" to the industry or something like that I could get a masters based on the class work that I had already done. By that time I had a masters and did not bother with it.
It is also interesting that I have a Batchors of Electrical Engineering. Most degrees are Batchors of Science in Electrical Engineering.
I am surprised that those are wells where artesian.
One of my clients does control systems for rual water districts and one site is Oldam Co. The last time I worked on the project they had wells on the shore and also 12 mile island (6 mile?). I think that they are in the same aquaifer and I don't remember anything about just valves to control the water. It has a been a while, but something like that would have stuck in my mind.
I still have lots of relatives in eastern Jefferson and Oldam county.
A few comments from my experience. The type of septic system and type of well will have some bearing on the chances of contamination of drinking water. A deep drilled well with casing will have less chance of contamination than a shallow hand dug or driven well, where as a shallow trench leach field that works with evaporation as well as leaching will have less chance of causing contamination than a deep drywell may. Chances are, on a lot that small, you have a drywell.
Another thing to consider is, maybe there hasn't been any problems in the past with contamination, but what has been the volume of water use and septic use? The amount of water put through a system with one or two people using it vs. a family of five or six can make a big difference.
We install septic and well systems in about 90% of the new homes we build in our area, but are required to have a minimum of one acre lot size to do it on. 100' seperation from the systems is minimum. Most banks in our area require a water purity test for bacteria. I would recommend at a minimum getting a bacteria test, and a dye tes on the septic system. Try and find out what the septic consists of. Is there an actual septic tank, with vent, leach field or drywell? I install at least a 1250 gall. tank with baffles and cleanouts and usually tell the customers to check it in 3-4 years. Some people can go much more than that with no pumping or cleaning depending on their living style. Good luck!
Bish
How much of a problem the proximity of these two elements is, as previously stated, a combination of numerous factors. Probably the two most important factors are the depth of the well and the type of soil in the immediate vicinity. Some soils have fantastic filtering capabilities per foot of depth while others are just plain lousy. There's no telling for sure what's down there until you go probing.
We had to install a new septic system here about 6 years ago and when the county health department came out to do the soil tests, the results of the samplings dictated that the leachfields for the system could not be placed in the backyard as there was a layer of glacial drift that began just two inches closer to the surface than the code allowed. Around the side of the house, no glacial drift was found, no matter how deep the soil samples. The difference in surface distance between these two locations was approx. 50'. Unconsolidated glacial drift allows "pluming" on the draw of a well, which would result in the possible contamination of the well water supply from incomplete filtering/purification of the gray water. I'd done a substantial amount of homework on septic systems and wells in advance to the beginning of the project, but didn't realize that such a dramatic difference could occur in such a short distance just several feet below the surface.
Because of the general soil types in this area, the minimum distance between an approved conventional leachfield location or the septic tank and the well is only fifty feet. All wells are tested by the state prior to the sale of a property. Our well is 170' deep, but nonetheless I have the water tested for bacteria, pathogens and any other health related contaminants about every two years by a friend at the county water department lab. I'd recommend that everyone on a well have the same tests done. In this area, our biggest concern is agricultural runoff related nitrates in the water. We have automated chlorination on our well because of iron content, a sand filter to remove the ferric iron that results and a carbon filter to return the water to a great taste.
I think your friend is apt to find that the state, county or local health board have standards in place to protect the health of the inhabitants of that area regarding wells and septic systems, but something to bear in mind is that although he may be allowed to operate on the existing system so long as no problems occur/are known because of "grandfathering"…… if the system ever has to be renewed or altered, newer stricter policies may be enforced. Since the lot is quite small regarding the placement of a septic system and usually new leachfields are not allowed to be placed in the same location of the old one……..alternative costly solutions might be in the future of this property. I'd have him check with the local health board to see when the system was last renewed, if such records are available. If there aren't any records concerning this property's well or septic system, you can probably assume that they've been there for quite some time. Bear in mind that leachfields have a life expectancy directly related to the soil types involved, the lineal feet of leachfield involved and the number of gallons introduced into the system over the years. The lineal feet of a conventional leachfield and the size of the septic tank here is dictated by the number of rooms that can be used as a bedroom; 100 lineal feet of leachfield and 250 gallons of septic tank capacity per potential bedroom.
It might also be wise to question them concerning the currently existing restrictions on these systems and the current potential price for installation of an acceptable system on the property in question. If they have no such figures to give you, I'd check with the locals in that area who install these systems as they can likely give you a pretty close guess-timate and they can give you alot of info concerning the average life expectancy in the area.
All good points above, especialy testing the present condition of the water. Treatment systems CAN cost up to five grand but often are only fifteen hundred.
In the state of Maine the reqd distance is 100' but variances are allowed for grandfathered pre-existing on small lots. Whewn building on one of these, I asked my system designer about that.
He said that almost all contamination of wells occurs in shallow dug wells insteaad of deep wells drilled into the aquifer. He also shared an opinion that with a properly designed, built, and maintained waste water system, he wouldn't mind drinking from a well only twenty five feet away from a septic system. It is the high likelyhood that human errors in design, use, and construction will occur that bumps the need to have the greater distance codified for insurance.
In use, the water soon builds a "mat" of gunky black bacterria that filters and puriofies the waste water underground. While the water that percolates through this mat is dirty to look at, it is theoreticaly clean enough to drink, if the mat is healthy enough. Further travel through a few feet of soil cleans the water better.
Wet clat soils make it hard for there to be enough air to maintain the grow of this bacterial mat. People do other insamne things to their septic systems. Time can take it's toll. So one hundred horizontal feet is the standard most have settled on to stay safe.
..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Sounds like you definitely understand how all this works….or at least it agrees with everything I've read on the subject.
Fifteen hundred for a system? Wow……. that's really cheap compared to here.......or maybe you're only referring to the drainfields.
Our system would be considered average size around these parts and just the cost of the materials and backhoe work came to $2600. The materials included a 1000-gallon plastic tank, the fill stone, a tad of sand to pad the tank bottom and walls, and nearly 400' of PVC pipe. My partner and I did all the handwork such as setting and connecting the tank, cutting and laying all the PVC, including stone distribution in the trenches. The next spring, I re-graded the lawn and reseeded myself.
The price for our system (with plastic tank) if we hadn't done any of this ourselves was $5,000………..and that, of course, didn't included any landscaping work. I'd venture to say that this is about the average cost for this area if you can get approved for a conventional system. Of couse, if you donb't need to replace or install a tank but just new leachfields, the price is considerably less. I personally know of total septic systems here that have exceeded $10,000 because of their proximity to a creek, which then required two septic tanks and extra lineal/square footages of conventional leachfield. Some of the unlucky folks in this area, who have been forced to install approved alternative systems as the conventional leachfield arrangement wouldn't be allowed on their property, have paid in the vicinity of $20,000 for a total system………………………. Medic!!!!!!!
To the best of my knowledge, a plastic tank isn't advisable, nor permitted, for anyone living on a flood plain as the potential exists for them to attempt float in high water conditions, but they're certainly much cheaper, the life expectancy is virtually indefinite, and you can bring it home on the PU (avoiding that delivery and installing fee on a concrete tank), drag it into place and tweak its position by hand. Another upside to a plastic tank is that they're not subject to damage from the introduced salts of a water softener connected to the septic system (if you've got one connected) …….or so the claim goes.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 11/30/2002 11:07:51 AM ET by GOLDHILLER
I'm sorry about the cost confusion. I was commenting to an earlier post about a system to treat incoming water supply. Here on the island we have no stone, gravel or sand so it must be hauled by ferry. Our systems run upwards of $15,000 installed for waste water. We generally use concrete chambers or plastic infiltrators with concrete tanks. The high water level in the soils can be really hard on a plastic tank. Some systems are being designed with Geoflow pipe but I've heard of failures with it and everyone is getting leary of it..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
You made me feel a lot better! My builder is charging me $5,000 for my septic system - we have very little perc, and he said that this is double the price he normally charges for other areas - the soil is great for growing grass though.
We have to maintain at least 100' downhill from a well too - we are on 5 acres so that isn't a problem, and we have city water. I'm thinking of having the city water for drinking - just so someone tests it for nasty stuff on a regular basis. But I want to do some serious gardening, and will have a swimming pool - so I will be adding a well ($1,900 sound like a good price?) I expect to recoup the cost vs water bills in about 3 years.
So does anyone have advice for newbies to septic systems? I have a front-load washing machine, and only my husband + 1 kid - so I'm figuring that we ought to go longer than usual before the thing is full (is that sound thinging?)
I'll take a shot at this and I'm sure they'll be more good advice to follow mine.
You can't treat a septic tank and its drainfields/leachfields the same as a city sewer system or you'll soon be parting with some of your cash to remedy the problems.
You want to avoid putting "stuff" down the drain that would have detrimental effects upon the health of that necessary colony of bacteria working inside the tank to break down the "solids". A quick search on septic system care will pop up much info about care as well as many ads for additives. If you read some of the investigations concerning these products, I think you'll find that there is no unbiased documented evidence that any of them are necessary nor documented to be beneficial. I'm sure that last statement will bring hell-fire raining down on me, but the reports are there to read. If the use of them makes you sleep better at night...I don't think they're apt to do any harm. We have a septic system today, I grew up on one, we never added anything special and never had any problem. Some of those additives also carry an annual price tag larger than having the tank pumped. Point being……..I think it's more important what you don't put down there than what you do. Mother Nature has a way of working these things out if we refrain from interfering. This might even be a covered topic at "How Stuff Works". By the way, pumping charges here are currently a flat $105, up to 1500 gallons.
I guess I'd advise that you don't hook up a garbage disposal to that system unless you're prepared to endure the expense of having the tank pumped annually or at least more frequently, depending upon the amount of solids you throw at it from the kitchen sink. There are automatic enzyme pill droppers on the market, which you can hook up under the sink that are claimed to digest the stuff, but my investigations here locally revealed that the average household would spend more money on the pills annually than to have the tank pumped. I didn't investigate any further as the point seemed moot to me. We return all of our compost-able (is that a word?) material to the garden.
One of the most important issues with economically maintaining a septic system is to have the tank pumped before any solids make it to the drainfields as these will hasten its demise/fatigue by "greasing" up the surface of the soil in those drenches so that water absorption is impeded. The rule of thumb that I'm familiar with is that when the solids of the tank have accumulated to a point where there is only 24" - 20" of water on top……it's time to have it pumped. What we and most folks around here do, is to leave the lid to the tank uncovered (no dirt or lawn) and park something cute on it like a planter box. Once a year the lid is removed and a stick is used to probe for the depth of the solids. That way there's no guessing about if its time to pump.
If I recall correctly, there was a heated debate here not long ago about having a water softener hooked to a septic system. I stayed out of it, but we've always had one hooked to the system since I was young and have never had a problem resulting from it. Use the advanced search on this site if you'd like to find those discussions. I'm sure you'll also find opinions on this if you do that Google on septic system care.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
ms chriss, is it too late for a gray water system? Also, who's checking the quality of your city water? Best of luck to you, and be safe out there. Jim Jensen
I'll be saving rainwater for the (2) orchids - other than that, we'll not be getting into any "green" or "gray" systems. I will be using quite a lot of water in the first 2 years - to get trees established (I am planting drought tolerant, but you still have to give them a start) and for swimming & bathing. Buuut, we have a lot of water here - I live between 2 reservoirs on a high water table. All you guys living in areas where water is tight, can calm down - we all pay a price for where we live, mine is giving up considerable sq footage for a storm shelter (already been exposed to an F5 tornado, it wasn't fun!)
Since I plan on some serious gardening, I will start considering where to store waste for compost - waste disposals aren't my favorite appliance - provided I don't have to walk too far with the trash sack! Seems like the only preparation left is to train my son to use less than half a roll of tissue when he visits the loo.
I like the idea of leaving the lid exposed - I'll bet if I paint it green, I'll only be able to see it in the Winter (grass turns brown here.)
Septic/Well setbacks vary everywhere. In my own town (5000 people) we have three residential zonign areas. They range from the old village to current new construction in the wooded boonies.
In the village, the lots are small. Quite small. There is a 5' setback between well and septic. In the outlaying areas, the minimum lot size is 2 acres, and the setback is 75' from well to septic.
All wells do need to be capped w casing through the ledge, or 100', whichever comes first. I don't know of anyone who has run 100' of casing. Ledge is hit 5-25' normally. Most wells are 180-200' deep w excellent flow. No shallow/dug wells are allowed.
Ms Chris, your septic will live longer if you don't use a garbage disposal. As a gardener, you'll want to compost, right? Or consider a bin of redworms for recycling. For drip irrigation, look into Netafim. The best out there. Between the Netafim and a good layer of mulch, you'll actually be able to enjoy yor garden instead of being a slave to it.
Definitely put a collar around the septic access hole. Even if you backfill the collar, it still will make digging for access a breeze when it comes time to pump. My 1500 gallon tank is about 16" under a bluestone patio. When I pumped last year, it took less than 10 minutes to pop a piece of stone off and dig out the collar to get to the access lid.
Well I definitely have the message about waste disposals now!
I will check into Netafim - having a name to start with makes the search a lot easier - thanks :-)
You know, I have fixed up 5 houses, and designed one from scratch (got a builder for that - my house insurance paid for it). I took cabinet-making classes and managed a few projects (yes, all by my girly self!) But building a bigger house on an acreage is all new to me - I have a lot of faith in my GC (he built the last house) but there is still a lot for me to learn, and so I really appreciate the info and advice given here.
Keep up the great "work" everyone :-)
In Indiana, the current separation distance required by the state is only 50 feet. The recent changes in state ordinances now requires 1.5 acres for a septic lot. Definitely get your well checked for bacteria. On lots that small your septic may not be polluting your well, but your neighbor's may be the pollutant. And as stated before, a water treatment system may be needed.
Check with your local County Health Dept. If you think they are incompetent, check with the State Health Dept. But at the same time be careful, you may raise all kinds of red flags (bureaucratic b.s.). Investigation on your own may be the best answer.
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
http://www.lazarobuilders.com