At the time I’m embroiled with the neighbors about my plans to develop an existing alley running along the back of the lots on our block. It’s now choked with blackberry and brush and impassable. I want to clear it and lay in gravel. One guy as fencing built across it and a shed IN the alley. Part of it is already open and usable beyond that.
Most want it done and view it as an improvement. Few complain it will allow undesirables in and create security and privacy problems… I plan to build a shop/garage back there as none of us have garages in the front…
The upshot is that the alley is owned by the city and if one resident wants to develop it, that is his right. No one has the right to say it should stay closed. Beyond that, despite his sentiment, the guy with the shed and fencing in the alley is in violation and should anyone choose to file a complaint, the city will impose fines on him til he clears the alley! He’s telling me now that he’ll return from Germany in July and take care of that… Won’t allow me to touch it… it’s pretty well falling over anyway.
What are your opinions about alleys? I love the idea of being able to drive up to the back of my lot, shuffle tools and materials, whatever. Have a place off the street my kid can play… I like the planning aspect of getting garages and cars off the front of a house…
All neighbors have met now to discuss. Only one house still fighting it.. others expressing less dire concerns. Half I talk to say ‘Screw ’em! Just do it!” Other half agrees about crime and whatnot…
Whattaya say? How do alleys harm or help a neighborhood?
Cheers,
Waters
Replies
I'm not to crazy about them. Kirstie Alley is too fat and Alley McBeal is too thin.
http://grantlogan.net/
What about Mohammed Ali?
He's the greatest.http://grantlogan.net/
Way back Ali McGraw was hot!Have a good day
Cliffy
But Georgia was not too thin!:)
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
huh?
seeyou said Ally McBeal was too thin.... but the character of Georgia (on that old tv show, played by Courtney Thorne-Smith) was lookin pretty good.... not too thin.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Yeah, Georgia - I remember her.http://grantlogan.net/
kudos to you to want to work with your neighbors, But i would want the Ally to get in the back yard and use your property, They dont have the right to stop you from its use
"Few complain it will allow undesirables in and create security and privacy problems"
Create security problems????? Good Lord, what bums, burglars and peeping Toms WANT is what you got!!!!!!!!!
Clear it out!
No kidding! The group, having to meet and process all this--even though there are rules--asked the city's crime prevention guy about it. He corraborated (wow where did that big word come from? did I spell it right!?) the evidence that if you allow places to hide you're going to have trouble... To assuage the naysayers, he suggested we visit a specific area of town that has healthy, well-kept alleys. We're all meeting there on bikes.
You have to understand, this is Eugene, OR. Often described as a few square miles surrounded by reality. Which I sometimes think is spot on. So many have this entitlement complex going on. A guy has illegal structures and fencing across the alley and could face civil penalty after one formal complaint, but he's entitled to leave it there until July when he's back in town. I think not.
By placing that structure there illegally he has already taken the step of being rude to all his neighbors with denying them right of of passage on a public way.
That is not opnly illegal, it is irresponsible. Have the city serve him and remove the structure for you and don't wait.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I grew up in suburban homes which all had public access alleys. There are a lot of benefits to them and just one drawback.
The only real drawback is the home security issue. That's not as significant as people often imagine it to be. If your back wall/fence screens the view of your yard and your gate has a bolt lock on it, that's enough to deter most daylight break-ins, the largest percentage of home thefts. It's really just common sense. If your yard is harder to break into than the others on the alley, you'll be last on the hit list. Or if you have a territorial dog, that's enough to send a message.
In any case, I only recall two attempted break-in thefts in my parents' neighborhoods, in over fifty years. One of them got some cheap jewelry from a single woman's bedroom and the others got caught in the act by the homeowner. They were loading up his furniture when he came home. He held them for the police with a gun.
There are a dozen or more positive points starting with garbage location and pick up. Not losing yard space to a driveway is another major benefit. Lots more.
Edited 4/13/2007 6:38 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Insightful thanks, I never thought about the garbage thing. That's another nice sell. Get the stupid cans out of the front yards. I have this pretty fence and gate I built--can't see it from the street for the trash, recycle, and yard debris cans...
If you feel like it, could you delve into the rest of your positive points?
Thank you
<<If you feel like it, could you delve into the rest of your positive points?>>
Sure.
Separating home from car. The first point which comes to mind is that cars in driveways tend to dwarf modest homes and redefine or clash with their style as well. A simple home can appear and feel much more like a real home when the car is parked by the curb or in the garage, out back. Homes with front yards and no driveways can be landscaped to any scale and with any curves which may fit the homeowner's vision.
Freedom. Parking in the garage becomes very routine, once specific visual cues are learned. It's nice to know that you can drive into the alley, hit the door opener on the visor, then manuver quickly into your personal parking space. There the car is safe and also protected by two insurance policies, auto and homeowner's. You enter your home through a backyard which you've created for your own pleasure and relaxation. No one sees what you're wearing or carrying. They don't even know that you've arrived or departed. If you want to run out for a pizza or a six pack at 10PM you can do it without moving someone else's car out of the driveway or flashing your headlights into anyone's living room or bedroom.
Tax relief and maintainance. You get to use the alley as a driveway, without paying property tax on it. The city is responsible for maintaining it too, no charge.
You can also use the alley as a temporary work space, or a place to play certain games like basketball or street hockey. These sports aren't very compatible with driveways because they jeopardize windows and shrubs.
If I think of any more, I'll let you know.
Edited 4/14/2007 2:55 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Any place I've ever lived, garbage cans was the main purpose of alleys. It is inconcievable to me that the garbage truck has not driven over or through this guys structure already.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
This alley has a "T" at one end, which runs out perpendicular to it so it's not a straight shot thru behind the lots. I'm sure a garbage truck wouldn't be able to make the turn, so I don't think I can sell anyone on the garbage pickup idea.
Also, this alley, to my knowledge, has never really been developed--never cleared for traffic, never graveled. Utility has come thru a couple times to work on overhead service wires, or to repair the sewer lines, which run under it. There are fences defining it throughout its length, but for where shed guy has fenced it off for himself. In between the defining fences you have blackberry with stalks as big around as your arm...
This guy with the shed in the alley claims that the city allowed him to capture that portion of the alley 13 years ago. I don't doubt they told him he could fence it and mow it, but I'll bet they also told him to prepare to move out if anybody wants to use the alley. Still, he is indignant and believes he should not have to move out any time soon, other than by full consensus of the whole block, despite what I have told him the city told me--that it's illegal, and that if somebody files a complaint, they'll fine him.
It's a conundrum.. I'd like to sic the city on him so it gets taken care of quickly, and I'd like to ignore my immediate neighbors and just push the alley through behind them, but what's worse, neighbors that hate you, resent you and are looking for any opportunity to zing you back, or waiting and waiting for something I really want done so I can move on with my plans?!
Arg.
Thanks Pif.
I don't doubt they told him he could fence it and mow it, but I'll bet they also told him to prepare to move out if anybody wants to use the alley.
So you don't know for sure.
Go research the legal description and deed of your lot. And your neighbors lot while you're there.
It may be that you own your part of the alley and other entities have right of way thru it. It may be that other entities have all rights, except actual ownership. It may be that utilites only have right of passage, and the alley can be secured against common traffic.
It may be that you do not own any part of the alley in any way.
Who knows what restrictions lurk in the heart of the alley?
The Legal Description and Deed dooo.
SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
Edited 4/14/2007 7:06 pm by SamT
Hi Sam, seeing a lot of each other lately...
Yes, the very first thing I did before moving on any alley ideas was to go learn my rights to it. I went down to the city office (there pretty often for permitting work for others) and sat down with a land use official. Pulled up the plot map and asked all the right questions.
Basically, our alley belongs to the city. It is the homeowner's responsiblity to maintain it (or not) however, immediately behind your place to the middle of the alley.
It is not permitted to build any structure in the alley. Fencing and mowing, according to the official, we're loosely tolerated as it's better than letting it grow over, but utility or the city can remove this fencing at any time.
Specifically, I asked about my plans and learned that any ONE individual can choose to develop--clear and gravel or even get a permit and pave--the entire alley if so desired. No one individual or group can prevent the alley from being developed in this circumstance.
Lastly, if anyone has a fence or structure in the alley, it must be removed if called upon to do so. A written complaint puts the city into action in removing such structures.
And that was enough for me to get bids and put out a letter saying I was going to do this.. which pissed a couple of folks off and precipitated this rant.
Thanks,
Pat
Well, there you go.SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
"There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins."
Sam, where in tarnation that quote from? - r
Some other poster has a rather political tag. That's my response.SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
That my grandaughter's name she's a good kid when she's asleep.
Here's my two-cents' worth:
Until recently I lived in the Dallas area, where many of the suburban subdivisions are laid out with alleys, with garages in the back. These can be magnets for break-ins, since the meth addicts or gangs can just cruise down the alley and smash-'n-grab from the cars parked in the rear driveways. Sometimes this happens even in the daytime since most people work and are not home during the day. With no basements, nearly everyone has their garages full of junk and one or both cars parked outside. Every week some section gets hit, with 20 or 30 vehicle break-ins in a small neighborhood.
On the plus side, the front elevations of the houses look much better, especially for smaller homes, when garage doors are no longer the most prominent feature. I hate driving into some subdivisions where there is no architecture visible except identical double garage doors all lined up down the street. The subdivisions with alleys look much nicer, because you can actually see the houses. For the homeowners, however, this benefit is seldom seen. Nobody ever goes in or out their front door except guests, so the homeowner just sees the back alley of his own house every day -- seldom the front except when he mows the lawn!
worth 2 cents for sure,
JK
We have a significant meth problem in this area also. Worst in the nation at times I believe. There was a PBS Frontline special on our area and meth...
I too like the idea of looking at a nice house and not the stupid garage and cars parked outside of it, because everybody uses the garage for something else anyway...
I think the alley and what I build back on our lot will be for me for the most part. My wife will still use the driveway--I the alley/shop.
Don't know where you are, but "Alleys" in most older metro areas in Texas were platted for manure removal in pre-1900 subdivisions, as most households kept a horse, milk cow, and chickens in their lots.
I'm a surveyor, and have re-surveyed many alleys for improvemets to surface and drainage. A lot of these easements have been used for PUE designation to run sanitary, electrical, and fiber optic networks in the past. Drainage is the main concern as a 20' ROW doesn't allow for proper disposal of stormwater. The alley should be concave, so the water runs down the center line of the street, with the garages above this grade.
Garages should allow enough turnig radius to park a vehicle, and allow it to be backed out without problem. Steel secruity doors and proper lighting are a must.
On a personal note, I used to love to inform Yuppies buying 500K lofts that their "quaint little lane," was used for manure removal....
Thats pretty interesting... yeah, I would say I'm stepping in $hit right now with this whole deal!
This alley will be graveled. But someday perhaps paved. It is below my grade, but the other side/above. Good advice on drainage.
Thank you.
BTW, some municipalities allow "gating" of an alley if all property owners agree to the measure. You must petition the regulating authority, obtain legally binding language and signatures from all owners, and make arragnements for emergency vehicles like fire and EMS a method for entrance if needed. Seems to work OK as much as I've seen.
Yes, I and others proposed this. At this point the objecting party is right next to me, in the middle of the block. They want to leave the alley blocked there--I don't like it because how the hell do I turn my truck and trailer around... God forbig they should have to build a fence... they like looking back there at the greenery.... Are you kidding me!?
Then, it seems to me also, that if it was 2:32AM and I was looking for a place to camp, I'd go down the alley til it STOPPED, hop the fence and nurse my high right there for the rest of the week...
I'm not so opposed to gating, but I think that's pretty stupid too. I don't want to be the idiot who has to get in and out of his truck 3 times just to leave the premises...I believe that the only traffic here will be US and the occasional transient on his way down to the bike path for a beer. So what.
Can you tell I've had one since I posted this originally? Wollaver's IPA. A close second to Terminal Gravity IPA, but that's another post altogether...
There is a lot to recommend an alley. It's a uniform way to run utilities. It means never sharing street parking with trashcans on trash day. It can mean not haveing neighborhoods defined by garage doors and driveways.
Sure, there are some concerns. Really, those concerns do not increase, just because there is an alley. I helps, though, to address the differences with lighting, motion sensors, and the like.
It takes planning, is all. Which is why a retro-fit alley is a very rare creature.
"What are your opinions about alleys? "
I like them ...
so much so ... that I bought and live in an "alley house"!
my house was built in 1902.
which is odd ... because every other house around was built in the 30's.
so ... to my thinking ... our house was the servants quarters or cook house to a much larger house "up on the hill" ... which was obviously torn down at some point.
there's an obvious split with our backdoor neighbors ... were everyone else has a garage ... they have us!
Which is nice for us ... as we have a city lot ... with no "neighbors" ... just garages and backyards ...
and a quiet ... "front street" ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
We have an alley out back. I can't imagine not having it. And we live in a borderline area . . . sort of between a good neighborhood and a less-than-perfect one. In 8 years we've never had a problem with crime.
It sounds like your neighbors' fears of crime are simply ignorance. Garages don't usually have the stuff inside someone would risk a jail term for, and robbers know this. They'd rather break into someone's house when they're not home. Not to mention that if a neer-do-well has access to the alley, so does every member of the community, police car and whoever else might drive down at any given notice. As others have mentioned, lots of lighting and locking your doors should be fine. Perhaps also having your neighbors agreeing to maintain their property/eliminate potential hiding places will make them feel they're taking responsibility and addressing the problem.
In Chicago and it's immediate surrounding small "Chicago don't wannabe municipalities" alleys where your garbage cans overflow, rats play, and junk scavengers drive through your neighborhood."
Let me see, alleys or additional landscaping area............
I see your point but, what if your additional landscaping area can only be reached by traipsing around either side of your house from a driveway in front or the street, with only about 12-14' to each side of your lot? This really blows when you're unloading something messy into the wheelbarrow and tracking it all the way to the back of your lot thru the Pac NW mud...
The bitchy neighbors next to me who are resisting the most have about a yard of mulch piled in their driveway for over 1 year now... Either they have 'other priorities,' or are too damn lazy to move it all the way to the back of their lot where the garden is. They also whine at me if I park within 2' of the mouth of their driveway as they say they can't get in and out safely... yet we're all trying not to block our mailboxes as the cheeky postman won't deliver if the cars are within 2' of the box, which is on the street as we have no sidewalks and they won't deliver on foot to your door... they also get hot under the collar, but too passive agressive to say anything about it when I make any tool noise before 9am (!?) but don't really get it that they wouldn't hear anything if had an alley-accessed shop to do my offsite work in--like building a door/gate or planing/ripping/routing a bunch of stuff to take with me to work--instead of in the yard...
blah blah blah...
This post has been great, I get to whine, and I'm getting good info too. Thanks again to you by the way for replying about plans.
I'm in one of the somewhat better Chicago suburbs, but not North Shore or far far suburbs. I wish I had 12' - 14' on each side of my home to my property line. I only have 5' on each sideyard. Fortunately, my home's plan is oriented to the backyard. There is no alley, just hight shrubs. What works for us that we have a two car attached garage up front. I understand what you would gain from the alley access.
Grew up in Southern WI, my parents from Mt. Prospect and Northbrook. My uncle still in Evanston. He was chair of Math dept at Evantston High.
I know your neck of the woods.
Cheers,
Pat
I agree with Piffin. Call the city. Do the deed. Sooner or later you are going to get your alley, the neighbor will be angry whether it's now or later. I'd call him up and tell him you waould like to start on the project and give him a deadline before you call the city. The city will probably give him 30 days; you should too. That puts your start date at either mid May or June, depending on whether he cooperates. Of course if the city cites him and he elects to wait until July, the city may remove the shed and fence and give him a big bill in return. BTW I have an alley in back of my home in Minneapolis. I think they are great. But, I've always maintained that you can guage the health of a neighborhood by driving down the alley. If your neighbors are willing to maintain their back lots to the alley, it will be less attractive to undesireables. If they allow it to accumulate trash and debris and use its borders to store their old appliances etc., it will attract the riff raff they are concerned about.
"BTW I have an alley in back of my home in Minneapolis. I think they are great. But, I've always maintained that you can guage the health of a neighborhood by driving down the alley. If your neighbors are willing to maintain their back lots to the alley, it will be less attractive to undesireables. If they allow it to accumulate trash and debris and use its borders to store their old appliances etc., it will attract the riff raff they are concerned about."
I'm in south Minneapolis, a few blocks west of the Institute of Arts. I agree with your thoughts about alleys - I have some good neighbors, so ours is kept up pretty well. However, if I go a few blocks to the south, the neighborhood starts going downhill pretty fast and the trash in the alley starts piling up.
This evening after burritos my wife, 3 year old and I drove around in the city's alleys. We found lots of examples of good, healthy, well-kept alleys. Pretty much solidified my resolve and made the naysayers look like paranoid idiots in my mind... Who the hell would want brush, blackberry and trash back there when it can be a cool little nook, well-cared for and lived in by all the neighbors.
We saw lots of creative fencing, plants, paths and entries to people's backyards, and no evidence whatsoever of crime/junk or whatnot.
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
It's interesting to compare Minneapolis and St. Paul alleys. In Mpls. the alleys are concrete, swept twice a year by the city, lit by two street lights in each alley, plowed by the city in winter and used by the city to pick up trash (a city service paid for as an item on the water bill) yard waste and recyclables. The city will also take used appliances & propely cut and rolled carpet. (No construction debris, though homeowners can get a free voucher and bring it to a city operated transfer station) The city provides each residence with a large wheeled container. St. Paul has asphalt alleys with less defined borders. Homeowners must contract individually for all trash hauling & snow plowing. Not sure if they sweep them, but I suspect they do. There is a marked difference in the condition of the back yards in the two cities, especially in the less affluent neighborhoods. There is much more back yard trash. St. Paul is probably more like your situation. If the neighbors will maintain their portion of the alley (and perhaps that of a neighbor who doesn't care) they will all appreciate the alley and see it as an improvement. If they see it as your alley to maintain they might be disappointed in the long run, (unless of course you're up for the task)
I've done projects in all of those suburbs. I'm in Park Ridge.
<<Grew up in Southern WI, my parents from Mt. Prospect and Northbrook. My uncle still in Evanston. He was chair of Math dept at Evantston High.
I know your neck of the woods.>>
My first experiences with alleys were in Evanston, post WWII. I still have a small cinder under the skin of my right knee from a fall in the alley behind my grandparent's apartment building on Callan Ave, about 1948. My mother's family lived in Evanston for many years, from about 1915. She and both her brothers graduated from Evanston High.
Another good reason for alleys, in those days. The iceman and the milkman could make their deliveries without interrupting traffic. My grandparent's apartment had a back staircase, common at that time, where those kind of deliveries were made. Some people continued to use ice for refrigeration, even after WWII. The iceman had a horse drawn cart, as I recall. Not much money in that business, just a lot of hard work. A nickle for a big block of ice, delivered up three flights of stairs and placed in the outside compartment of the "icebox", the same place where the bottles of milk were left by the milkman.
All the history involved with this alley ? are really interesting. In further research I found a current movement in urban planning called "New Urbanism"
http://www.newurbanism.org/newurbanism/principles.html
involving ideas to get people out of their cars and living rooms and into their urban environments--alleys being a way to turn back time a bit and get cars and garages out of the front of your place and etc...
My grandparents from Mt. Prospect, they had a summer cottage they eventually moved into full time up on lake Como in WI near Lake Geneva. They had in that cottage an ice box, just like you speak of, that they'd used long before I ever came along. I don't know if they still have it, but they used to tell us about using it and the ice deliveries were chunks cut from the local lakes and packed with sawdust. Us kids couldn't understand why the heck they'd put sawdust in the frig!?
Around the time you were skinning your knees in Evanstan, my grandfather, passed away now, was the navigator in a B-24 Liberator piloted by none other than Jimmy Stewart. This plane was the squad's leader, you know, several hundred planes I think, with Stewart at the helm and my grandad navigating. He had some great stories, once being shot down, ending up in a tree with an angry confused farmer going to skewer him with a pitchfork, not understanding he was allied. He said flying with Stewart was terrifying as the guy was incredibly brave. A true celebrity war hero.
Thank you for the note.
Interesting about our families' connection through military aviation too. My mother's brother, Cmdr. William Eadie US Navy, an Evanston native, was a pilot in the South Pacific during WWII. His most famous exploit was the rescue of Eddie Rickenbacker and others whose transport plane had become lost and was forced to ditch in the ocean.
My Uncle Bill is honored on the war memorial in downtown Evanston.
Different times and different people those folks. A "just" war for sure.
So many great stories.
Best to you and yours,
Pat
Indeed.
Best to you too.
Edited 4/15/2007 8:10 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I lived in Eugene for nearly 10 yrs, and we had an alley behind our place on Orchard street that we used a lot. (parallel and to the west of Orchard, between 15th and 17th). In fact, Eugene is my main experience with alleys. I'd say it would be a big benefit to you and the cooperating neighbors to get this alley functional again.
You'll want to talk about whos gonna pay for the annual "oiling of the alley" to keep the dust down, if that becomes an issue. It was for us, but we had a community house-based church with the parking off the alley, and we had lots of cars up and down all the time. Might not be as big a concern for you.
But all in all, having a working alley behind your place(s) should be a good thing.