Who deleted the EZ Smart Guide thread? I had a message notification and the thread is gone. Wow, the internet police are overreaching, no? Or did the discussion get moved?
Billy
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When the message took you here , did it say discussion doesnt exist?
If thats the case I know what it was but until I know Im not sayin.
Tim
Edited 1/31/2006 10:54 am by Mooney
Yes, I had a message from Paul and when I linked in it said the message was deleted. Then it said the discussion doesn't exist. Perhaps one of Taunton's advertiser's complained about the discussion?
Billy
Ok since its deleted by higher powers.
Dino posted one of his page of pics like on his website.
At the top said Breaktime .
I figgure they frowned on it saying that and posting it here thus tying his website and Breaktime together . If he would have left the Breaktime off of it then it would have been the same as the others he and others I suppose have posted.
Other than that it was a gentle and learning thread. I know I enjoyed it .
I might suggest leaving the company name off the next one . <G>
I saw it this morning also and thats all I know it contained that raised a flag.
Tim
Tim.
I thought the problem was something else, but who knows?
I just remove the name from the photo album because...who knows?
If we can keep this on the invention and educational side of the ez,
we don't have to be the society of the "underground woodworkers".
I think the problem is with some guys (G)that they can't wait to get the new toys (G) and placing orders from Breaktime. (G)
I have some new pictures from a tool that can make woodworking safe for once. I can post the pictures to test the waters of Breaktime if...you guys promise not to place your orders thru this forum. Anyway, this tool is not available yet, and I think we can say, this is just another idea?
Tim. What you think?
YCF D.
Edited 1/31/2006 9:11 pm ET by dinothecarpenter
I dont know what you thought it was ,..
But the page pics were ok before , so I would assume they are now with the deletion of the heading of last night.
Tim
I spend a lot of time over at Knots, and I would say the censorship over there runs pretty heavy.As you all know, the new poobah, Matt Berger, changed everything at Knots, and in the process, turned everything upside down -- in what I would describe as a ham-fisted way. He's probably now spending a lot of time over here, dreaming up ways he can "improve" BT; and that also means he will keep his finger poised over the delete key for anything that offends his sensibilities. I really don't think this guy has much insight or common sense when it comes to the inner workings of the Taunton forums. I can't wait to witness the firestorm here when he starts to work his magic with BT. And he will............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
This was posted in a separate thread, came down from Sysop:
From:
SYSOP <!----> View Image<!---->
3:51 pm
To:
ALL <!----><!---->
(1 of 2)
69051.1
Although we love the idea of tool and material representatives using Breaktime as a means to answering product questions, the line between product support and product advertising has been growing hazy over time. So, in order to be fair to our paying advertisers, we have decided to keep a closer watch over these threads, and remove them if they seem to cross the line. It’s simply not fair for a company to get free advertising on our forum or potentially cut Breaktime members discounts in any way.
We know the turf is a bit squishy here. We do wish that we could give a hard and fast guideline, but after a long period of deliberation, we feel that it will have to be a case by case basis that will determine what is acceptable and what is not.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Justin,
Well, I think it was heavy handed. Remove a post if it is offensive, but don't remove a whole thread with over 130 posts.
I think everyone would welcome the paying advertisers here as well.
Woodworkers and builders are always looking for better ways of doing things.
It's just my opinion, of course, but your magazines live and die by your paid subscribers as well as your advertisers. Please don't forget who are your customers. Thanks.
Billy
So Justin, does this mean that the only tools that we can talk about are the ones that your magazine has as advertisers?
If so we are going to need a list, I know that when I look at FWW or FHB I usually don't pay any attention to the adds so I'm not all that familiar with the advertisers.
Thanks
Doug
"So Justin, does this mean that the only tools that we can talk about are the ones that your magazine has as advertisers?"All I can say is it better not be..............John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
If it does, we're all screwed, it'll be Rigid and HD all the time ;)
I don't think they are being all that heavy handed. I am an EZ owner, Dino supporter, and really appreciate his sincere personal commitment to safety and workplace improvements. His zeal to help folks understand how to use his inventions and share his experiences are matched by very few people. Lesser men would probably try to take advantage of this. I am confident he does not!
However we all must try to stay less than commercial in product discussions. I think that rather than dumping a whole thread an e-mail to Dino or any other person getting too close to the line should advise them as such with clear guidance.
I always wonder anytime I see a deleted post or thread. I think our gracious hosts would put some note as to why. If the OP deleted it then it could be in the "line post deleted by poster".
I am a subscriber by the way.
I subscribe to and really appreciate this forum but it seams that when the mods have the chance to clear something up with a simple message they leave us in the dark to speculate. I dont just mean this particular thread either.
If you frequent Knots the talk of "heavy handedness" is rearing its ugly head, I feel its creeping over here.
I could/may be wrong, wont be the last time
Doug
You would think that in a forum entitled "Tools for Homebuilding" it would be O.K. to have an in-depth discussion of tools, other than "I like brand X over brand Y."
I've subscribed to Fine Homebuilding since 1984 or 85 and not all the changes have been for the better. It's still a good magazine with great contributers and Breaktime has a lot of good people but it seems lately Taunton is a bit misdirected.
Billy
BTW Billy,
My last post, that apparently you never got, was to apologize if I seemed unduly harsh. First of all, on rereading the thread, it was apparent I was combining your "issues" and JJV's and thinking you were having all kinds of problems. Plus, I was mystified that anyone could have so many problems in the first place...
Anyway, my apologies if I sounded harsh...
PaulB
Thanks Paul. I appreciate it.
No big problems here; it's a good system.
Thanks again.
Billy
I guess I'll have to thumb through the mag and find something interesting to talk about.
I'm wondering if an old issue would be OK though, its not a currant advertiser so probably not.
Obviously Taunton has done their homework and knows the demographics on this so maybe the direction that they are moving towards is what they feel they need.
Sometimes I think they aspire to be more like This Old House! They should see if they cant steal Norm away and make him their spokesman. I hear Martha Steward got cancelled, maybe they can pick her up for a song.
Doug
Doug et al,
We are not saying that tool discussion have to stop, and the tools being discusses are not limited to the ones that advertise in the magazine. We are simply saying that tool makers and distributors can't use this forum to promote their own tools.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
I support your position on this. It is clear that the EZ system has several users on this board and that the inventor is a good guy. However, I'd hate to see any and every tool manufacturer on here promoting their goods, even if it's in the subtle form of answering questions about them or giving advice on how to use them. This is a peer forum.
David
even if it's in the subtle form of answering questions about them or giving advice on how to use them. This is a peer forum.
So now answering questions is a subtle form of advertising? Then maybe Piffin should be banned because he is subtly advertising himself and his business every time he answers a question!
BS
Doug
Yer right--I'm gonna stop buying those damn Piffin screws right now.
BS (whatever that means)
Maybe your not aware but Piffin is a GC, now maybe where your from that's not a business but here it is.
I'm not singling Piffin out, just using his name because it popped into my head when I was writing this.
My point is that he is subtly advertising himself/business when he answers a question, Same as your saying that Dino is doing.
Really, its not that hard to comprehend
Doug
I wouldn't be against a commercial products forum on this board where manufacturers could show up and talk about their products, but only on that forum without spillover to the other areas. Wouldn't it be great to ask Company X why they built their tool with a thingamabob that is useless when they could have used a thingamajig instead? Most manufacturers wouldn't show up, but some would. It might even be good business for Taunton. But it's wishful thinking, I know.
On the John Bridge tile forum some manufacturer's reps regularly show up and I learn a lot of things that aren't evident from their product brochures.
Billy
I'm with you on the commercial products thing but it just strikes me funny that a guy over at knots that works for Freud, and makes no bones about it, can recommend his Freud tools and nothing happens to him.
I guess it has nothing to do with the fact that Freud spends a lot of money on advertising in both FWW and FHB! I'm not young enough or stupid enough to believe that the money doesn't have something to do with it.
Just to clarify, I have no problem with Charles from Freud being on knots. He's very helpful and never pushes his product on anyone, similar to Dino.
Doug
You know, I thought of the same thing-Charles is all over the place and plugs his own blades quite often (usually as a result of a direct response). I've never seen his threads pulled.Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Guess Dino just needs to take out an ad in Fine Homebuilding.
I think it's more a question of how much is reasonable. If an insurance guy takes potential clients to lunch at Taunton's Restaurant, that's fine. If he charges up his cell phone and laptop, and spends eight hours a day there, that's kinda excessive. It's time to open up his own office.
-- J.S.
Knots and BT are not moderated by the same people. The same rules should apply, but what's on one radar screen isn't necessarily on another.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Its still double standars within the same company.
Doug
Doug, I'm not singling you out. This is just an outpouring of the frustration I felt for years answering complaints about Breaktime. Now that I don't work for Taunton anymore, I can unload a little. Believe me, this is pretty light duty compared to some of what I've said under my breath over the years. I understand how you all feel ownership of both Breaktime and the magazines. I do too. Nonetheless....
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't your Momma's teach you the proper thing to say when someone invites you to dinner and they put something you don't like in front of you? It's "Thanks, that looks great."
You guys expect way too much. If you knew just how shoestring an operation these discussion boards are, you might not be so demanding. The boards make the company almost no money, and cost, I'd guess, on the order of a hundred grand a year. Lighten up, for Pete's sake. You're all literally getting something for nothing. Taunton could pull the plug tomorrow and its bottom line would increase.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Edited 2/2/2006 3:40 pm ET by Andy_Engel
Andy
eah, yeah, yeah. Didn't your Momma's teach you the proper thing to say when someone invites you to dinner and they put something you don't like in front of you? It's "Thanks, that looks great."
Well Andy I guess I was never one to just follow along and do what I should!
I'd assume that Taunton has some reason to have this website and I'm guessing it isn't just because they want to be a nice guy and provide me with a freebie. I don't feel that I own any part of this site, I do own the mags that I bought though, at least I assume I do!
Taunton could pull the plug tomorrow and its bottom line would increase.
I'm wondering if that really is true or not, maybe nether one of us knows for sure.
Just another ungrateful SOB
Doug
I re-subscribed to FHB after years away, because of some recent reviews I read on BreakTime - which I assume, is one of the purposes of keeping this board. I also purchased several Taunton books because of either review coments I read here, or because of the (also free) video downloads. Not exactly a hudred-thousand dollar drop in the bucket, but if there were enough over the course of the year, they'd add up. Thats how advertising and public promotion is supposed to work. I hear.
edited to add: Oh yeah, and I purchased a back issue, because of the free video downloads.
Edited 2/2/2006 8:40 pm by Huck
I'm wondering if that really is true or not, maybe nether one of us knows for sure.
I didn't intend to unload on you in particular. Sorry if I offended. It's just that having been on the receiving end of it for years, well, there it is. Taunton does hope eventually to make money here, and it's a good way for the staff to get know the readers. It's an easy department in the magazine, but I doubt anyone but you guys reads it. So, for the last eight years or so, I'd venture that Breaktime has been a money sink.
The other thing I want to be clear about is that the above is my opinion, and doesn't represent Taunton in any way.
As to dinner, come on over to my house. Hope you like tripe. <G>
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Edited 2/2/2006 9:42 pm ET by Andy_Engel
"...but I doubt anyone but you guys reads it."
I'm going to disagree with you on that one Andy, especially since it's a great opportunity to toot my own horn...(I like think that my ability to choose which thread get into the magazine is a gift ;)
Here is the breakdown of the popularity of Breaktime in each issue:
#166 - 10th place
#167 - 7th place
#168 - 4th place
#169 - 3rd place
#170 - 2nd place
...after that it settles back down to a middle of the road average (5th place or so) - but in that time of glory, the breaktime department was second only to Tips & techniques - and that means it beat out Q&A, T&M, What's the Diff, Master Carp, Building Skills, Letters to the Editor, Drawing Board, and Cross Section -
...still think nobody reads it sucka? (couldn't resist...)Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Yeah well, if you included a post from me in every FHB Breaktime section, that section would maintain top popularity all the time !!!;o)
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Yeah well, if you included a post from me in every FHB Breaktime section, that section would maintain top popularity all the time !!!
That would be true only if they posted a photo of you at a Fest in every issue. They wouldn't even have to read your stuff to know you're a likeable guy. ;-)
Billy
Well, except when I get on a rant. LOL
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
So what you are saying is, some of your top rated authors hand you their money making gems on a silver spoon. Kind of foolish to torch their contributions over someone else's screw up isn't it?
Maybe I'm coming off as a bit over peeved but you wasted my time and disrespected a man I've really come to admire. I consider the solid advice I've received here over the years more than adequate payment for my services, some of which you've published, but there are master craftsmen and innovators here who will never be adequately reimbursed for their freebies. Dino is one of them.
Dino is changing the face of woodworking. He is a powerfully influential individual who has been very generous with his time. People are actually asking the question, "do I really need a table saw anymore?" with a straight face, and every guide system on the market right now bears the mark of Dino's influence.
If your policies force you to limit his involvement in this forum they are shortsighted and foolish. You may think you've helped him more than he has helped you but it's only because you've lost sight of his numerous gifts to all of us. I've never seen one indication from Dino that he is trying to take advantage of this, or any other forum. He is passionate about what he believes, and that passion pushes the edge sometimes, but it is that very passion that makes him contribute far more than he consumes.
If he breaks the rules fix it, but take it easy with that delete key. There will come a day when guide systems compete with the table saw on every front. One of the primary figures who will take us there is a frequent guest in your virtual home. If I were looking to position myself at a strong point in that evolving market, I would treat him with a great deal of respect, even if he does spill his drink on the rug now and then.
Edited 2/3/2006 12:52 pm ET by GoldenWreckedAngle
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah, Fluffy, blah. <G>Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Andy-I gather you are one of the moderators--are there others?
I spent many years as a moderator. I left Taunton last November. If I were still a moderator, you'd see a gavel behind my name. I do maintain a fairly close relationship with FHB, however.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Thanks for the clarification--I've read so many of your posts with the gavel, I was wondering if you had another moderator login or something.Obviously Taunton pays the bills around here and can do as they chose. I'm a Festool user so I was following the EZ Smart discussion out of curiosity, but I'm annoyed that it was removed without a public explanation. If there are standards of use for this space it would be well if they were explained in a clear, transparent way.
There was a public explanation:
69030.10Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
For me it goes sort of like this - I came to the forum way back when because of a particularly funny comment from Jim "Crazy Legs" Blodget in the magazine excerpts from the forum. There are days I really miss coming home from the job site with saw dust and a few witty and good natured insults stuck in my ear. This forum helped me re-connect and as such it made the magazine come alive for me.
The magazine and forum are by no means exclusive. Each promotes the other. Lots of stuff from the magazine showed up in my house design but I learned far, far more from this forum over the years. A forum tip from Jim on Mason Select fiber cement siding stain resulted in a total design change to the facade of my house. That's just one of many examples where Taunton influenced me in a far more powerful way by hosting this forum than you ever did by publishing a magazine.
I heard about the EZ Smart here. It's changed the way I work for the better. If Dino hadn't started posting here I probably never would have heard about the system that is hands down the smartest tool purchase I've made in my lifetime. While Dino introduced the concept, Mike Smith talking about his experience with it is what finally sold me on buying it. You may not think that Taunton made a dime off that sale, and the many other sales I contributed my cash to based on forum influence, but I submit to you that you made a killing.
Influence = power=money.
I don't know how much you paid Jim to influence me with the numerous articles where he is featured in the mag, but you paid him a lot less for his input on this forum. He influence me in a far more effective way on the forum and I strongly associate that influence with Taunton. I've bought products based on the influence of the mag and forum both. Some of those manufacturers paid you in cash, some of them paid you with influence.
I've read your magazine reviews, where you paid someone to tell me what they thought of a product, and I've made several tool purchases based on those reviews - I've read far more forum product reviews, and I own far more tools, based on that forum influence than anything I've read in the magazine. That influence cost you the price of hosting this forum.
The EZ Smart thread was started by a user, not a manufacturer. There was a lot of good input from people who have no affiliation with the company at all. Apparently Dino answered a few questions in a way that you felt justified the use of your EZ nuke button. Well fine - it's editing - lazy editing but editing none the less. Totally your call but you may as well know, it had a negative impact on your influence with me.
The thread was full of helpful input that in no way violated any of the posted rules. One of the posts that got toasted in the EZ thread nuke was me answering Tim's question, "what is everyone using melamine for anyway?" I got a notice that he responded to my answer but I have no idea what he said. It was a good thread, with lots of good information, that gave you virtually free influence in the lives of everyone here who has any interest in the rapidly evolving guide system phenomenon.
Like I said, your magazine, your forum, your call. I don't suppose we can expect every decision you make to resonate with wisdom but that one stands out as particularly careless. Guide systems are the latest major industry buzz for dang good reason. It's a good idea to hold the line on abuses to the forum rules but you rolled up a big old chunk of free influence, on a red hot industry topic, with a few easily deleted rule violations, and smoked the whole thing in one sitting.
No problem - I checked out of the forums a while back to invest my limited influence where it would result in personal income. That's proved to be a good decision. I won't make a dime off a word of this - You can make what you want to of it.
very well said.. i would guess that my tool purchase and work decisions have been vastly influenced by BT over the last 6 - 7 years...
i would also agree surgery is usually called for before amputation..
apparently a bad decision to lop off the thread when deleting a few posts could have sent the same messageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
> Apparently Dino answered a few questions in a way that you felt justified the use of your EZ nuke button.
It's probably my fault. I was trying to figure out what and how much to get to put together a system, what works with what, and I turned that into a kind of public purchase order.
For that I apologize.
-- J.S.
Its a shame they killed it, because I've been wrestling with the exact same questions. I haven't seen the system in person, so some of it is hard to visualize from the snapshots on the website. I use a wormdrive saw, which I know is incompatible. I have a sidewinder, but its a cheapie I picked up at a yardsale, mainly just for occasional use around the house. So should I upgrade my saw also, or are decent results possible with a cheap saw, an expensive blade, and the e-z guide?
Do I just buy the straightedge, or should I get some other accessories at the same time? I seem to do a decent amount of closet shelving lately, ripping shelves from 4' x 8' x 3/4" particleboard on my table saw, which is a pain for one person. I think I could build a table that works as well as the e-z table, but then again, I have so many unfinished projects already!
It is a shame - Dino can answer your questions better than anyone. I recomend you go ask your questions at Quittin time.
thanks - I'll check it out!"he ... never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Huck, there's a review and the space at QT in the Construction Tools folder. Feel free to use it. We'll see that dino knows to check it out.
thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Sorry folks - can't help myself. I'm gonna have to go Dino on ya after what I just pulled off!
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=69207.1
There is a better way...
I thought I had read all of this thread but did I miss a post that says Dino is banned? I would be upset if that were the case. Tech advice and info just needs to be worded so it does not appear to be sales oriented. Like JohnSprung said his post came close to a purchase order. You had good points and Andy put forth a very good explanation too.
I subscribed to FHB after lurking on BT by the way. I migrated from JLC, can't remember where I heard about BT, whether it was the Ridgid site or JLC.
I don't think Dino is banned. I think that Taunton is viewing him talking about his own tool as advertising, and so they're coming down on that. Advertising is agains the House Rules, as found on the start page.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I know, I was responding to GWA's comment about the value of Dino's help here. He said it like he had been deported {:-).
I think I pretty well covered my opinion of how it had gotten to where it was. I am the one that cut and pasted that part of the Rules. If I were king ( had a virtual hammer so to speak) I would have deleted any post that was approaching the line and sent a kind and gentle e-mail direct. There has been way too much emotion over this.
Yeah Dino, Yeah Andy, Yeah Justin, Yeah Taunton- Yeah all of you guys that provide the great answers ( but where would you be if not for idiots like me to ask questions?)- I am heading to the bar. TFIF and after 5PM.
Make mine an Arrogant Bastard Ale!Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
You can find Dino on Saw Mill Creek:http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?s=2938a98b80b58345d0b3fb81d7b7cc7b&f=26
Billy
> ripping shelves from 4' x 8' x 3/4" particleboard on my table saw, which is a pain for one person.
The longer the rip, the better off you'd be with a guide system. I had to rip a couple 14 ft. pieces in a 25 ft. shop. It meant careful measurement and positioning of the TS, and starting with 5 ft. of wood sticking out the back door. You need 2x the length of the work plus a couple feet to safely start the infeed and finish the outfeed.
With a guide, you need only 1x the length of the workpiece, plus maybe 2-3 feet to have comfortable standing room to start and room to push the blade fully clear on the far end. 16 - 17 ft. vs. the 30 ft. needed with the TS.
-- J.S.
yeah, but no one makes a 14' guide, do they?"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Someone does make a system where you can put together pieces and make most any length you want. Theoretically, I could go over 25 ft. now, and I could buy more if I ever needed to. Have a look over at
http://www.sawmillcreek.org
-- J.S.
Golden Wrecked Angle summed it up well. The entire thread should not have been deleted because of one or two objectionable posts.
My guess is that BT contributes a lot to the magazines.
First there are referrals to previous articles (someone gets directed to Andy's basement article at least once per week).
Second, many of the editors and authors show up here. I know that because of their presence here I read their articles differently -- and I am drawn to them -- when they publish an article in FHB. And FHB gets immediate feedback on the articles. What is that worth?
Third, FHB always had an air of "community" and nowadays you can't really have a viable community without a web presence.
Fourth, the questions about "what would you like to see in a tool X review" surely improve the quality and and usefulness of the tool review articles. It's an alive and kickin' focus group that I bet the magazines use pretty heavily.
The beancounters can slice it any way they want but my guess is that the forums make a decent contribution to Taunton, even if it's difficult to measure.
By the way, when will FHB do a tool review of saw guide systems? ;-) Thanks for listening.
Billy
Billy, you and Golden Wrecked Apple and Mike Smith make some valid points. While Andy feels, and probably rightly so, that some here are unappreciative of Taunton providing this forum for free, I myself tend to view it as a two-way street. That is, I'm amazed at the message contributors who post excellent, hard-won, field-tested information here, for absolutely free.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is that if these regular posters, guys like Blue, Buck, Piffen, Mike Smith, Dino, Tim Uhler, Jim Blodgett, GDCarpenter, Cloud Hidden - I could go on and on - added up their time spent posting here over a year, times their normal hourly rate, it would be seen that it is not just Taunton who brings a sizeable chunk of free information to the BT table, year after year.
So who's thankless? Maybe we all are, just a little. Or then again, maybe our presence and our insights and our heartfelt opinions, posted here, are a way of showing our apprciation after all. Just my opinion.
With all due respect to the great folks you named, it's not Taunton so much as you guys who benefit from the free information here.
I do have to recant just a bit my earlier statement. As an editor, some of the best authors I worked with came from BT - Jim Blodgett, CAP, Jim Anderson, and several others who shouldn't feel sleighted that I've forgotten them.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"With all due respect to the great folks you named, it's not Taunton so much as you guys who benefit from the free information here."
I guess you missed my point. OK, its "you guys" who benefit "so much" more than Taunton. "You guys" being who - me and you? People who read this forum, DIY'ers and professionals who are passionate about construction, about getting it right, about sharing and learning? Taunton doesn't fall into that category?
But my point wasn't who benefits, but whom to thank for these benefits. You say Taunton. I say Allright, but are they the only ones? You laid out a dollar amount that you estimate Taunton puts into keeping this forum afloat. I'm saying add up the time spent here by the posters other than Taunton, multiply that times these posters' hourly rate, and what do you know?. Do you see that there is a huge constituency of givers who seem to remain as thankless as you say Taunton is.
I say thank not only Taunton, but rather than chastise "you guys" who contribute (for a thankless attitude), thank also "you guys", the unsung heroes who unselfishly contribute to making this board a happening place - a cultural center of construction knowledge and teaching and wit and wisdom.
And maybe, just maybe, if providing this forum is Taunton's way of thanking those who use it for posting and for reading, then sharing their insights and opinions is "you guys"' way of showing their appreciation.
Edited 2/3/2006 3:07 pm by Huck
Sorry, I was confused. As to who to thank, well, of course our hosts. But you're absolutely right that anyone who contributes their hard-won knowledge here is due thanks.
In a way, we, including me, have twisted this out of proportion. Breaktime is a great place. Some of the best builders in the country hang out here and share what they know. A few pains in the tuckus, as well, but hey, nothing's perfect. It would be hard to assign too much value to what I've learned from you guys.
So, thanks to all of you who've ever taught me something new, or just as importantly, made me laugh. Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
In a way, we, including me, have twisted this out of proportion. Breaktime is a great place. Some of the best builders in the country hang out here and share what they know. A few pains in the tuckus, as well, but hey, nothing's perfect. It would be hard to assign too much value to what I've learned from you guys.
So, thanks to all of you who've ever taught me something new, or just as importantly, made me laugh.
Yeah, I agree. Glad to see we're on the same page after all. I could live without FHB, but not BT! (Now I have both). - Huck
'With all due respect to the great folks you named, it's not Taunton so much as you guys who benefit from the free information here.'I dunno--how do BT participants benefit by generating 2-3 pages of content for the Magazine without compensation?I'm not trying to be difficult--just pointing out this space throws off benefits to lots of folks. DIY/Homeowner subscribers get advice from contractors, builders share knowledge and advice about tools and techniques with eachother, and Taunton builds it's brand value.I'm familiar with Fine Homebuilding because my older brother (a former cabinet builder) was a long-time subscriber. As a kid, whenever I visitied him, I would pour over the magazines. I subscribed when I started my own remodeling career, and lapsed when I saw the redesign awhile back. I kept reading the forum, and was made aware of articles that were less 'What is caulk' and more 'How to install Ditra', and started subscribing again. The content and posters at Breaktime convinced me to give the editors (and redesign) the benefit of the doubt.I guess I'm just offering Taunton some more feedback on how this space supports the bottom line. Providing this space to tradesfolks isn't just charity, as I'm sure the beancounters @ Taunton have figured out. Taunton probably doesn't benefit nearly as much as I do from the excellent advice here, but that doesn't mean Taunton gets the short end of the stick.
>>>>I dunno--how do BT participants benefit by generating 2-3 pages of content for the Magazine without compensation?<<<<As a BT participant, you come in here and generate 2-3 pages of content for the magazine.... And never read anything yourself ?Andy said everyone benefits. He is right. I don't think -anyone- comes in here and gives more benefit than they get.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I kept reading the forum, and was made aware of articles that were less 'What is caulk' and more 'How to install Ditra', and started subscribing again.
I'll second that. As I mentioned, I have purchased books, back issues, and most recently, a subscription, because of Taunton's website and this forum.
Sure, there are benefits that flow both ways. As a former moderator, I was just blowing off some steam. I doubt that any of you know just how the moderation here happens.
I moderated for years, then Jim Kidd, then Brian Pontolilo, now Justin Fink. All of us were editors at the time. All of us were expected to produce as much magazine content as anyone else on staff. And moderate Breaktime in our spare time. I spent nights and weekends looking over the boards, as did many of the other guys.
Which duty do you think mattered at our annual reviews? So, if any of us ever deletes a thread rather than edit it, that's why. If a moderator is heavy handed, it's because he has to be efficient, policing the volume of posts here while trying to do the best job possible for the magazine. Which, by the way, you guys have every right to complain about if it doesn't meet your expectation. If a moderator seems a little surly when someone complains about any change to the forum, it's becuase he's really got other things to do that are in most ways more important. Including perhaps, spending time with his family. For you guys, and me now, Breaktime is a playground. For a moderator, well, it's sometimes like playground duty.
The whole point is that yes, the great participants here deserve thanks. Taunton deserves thanks for hosting the place. Justin deserves our thanks, and our respect, for keeping this place clean enough to stay under the radar, while allowing it to be rowdy enough to be fun. He's not paid more for doing that, and he does it pretty well nonetheless.
And that's all I've got to say about that. Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Well for myself I found an answer I was looking for on this Forum and because of that started reading the mag and now subscribe. So that is of some direct benefit to Taunton. I guess we should start the free Dino movement before it is too late.
If I'd known it was harmless I'd have killed it myself.
If I'd known it was harmless I'd have killed it myself.
Andy, I do appreciate the _very_ hard work it takes to produce an online community--especially one frequented by contractors!!And I really appreciate your post about this getting blown out of proportion--it highlights your experience and wisdom in managing online communities. Alot of online arguements wouldn't last 5 minutes face to face, but somehow we all have a little sharper elbows when we can express our frustration through a keyboard. FWIW, before I was remodeling, I worked PT as a consultant for large organizations and corporations creating online communities. I'm well aquatinted with many of the issues facing Taunton in hosting this community. I know that management rarely understands the effort required to keep things running smoothly, or the benefits conferred upon the hosting organization. It's frustrating to work hard on something that is a wild success but not valued by decision makers.I guess I'm just piping up to remind the decision makers that what makes communities 'work' are the people who participate. People who spend alot of time reading a posting on a site develop a sense of ownership, even though we can all agree Taunton owns this space. I would argue for Breaktime would yield the greatest benefit to Taunton if the users have the _sensation_ of ownership. That sensation is disrupted when content is deleted. Sure, Taunton has the right to do so, but that doesn't make it in the best interest of the community, or the magazine's commercial aims for the community.Thanks for taking the time to explain your thinking (and frustration).
You're welcome. It's good to have the freedom to do so.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Keep in mind, too, that when I was a moderator, there was a huge hullabaloo regarding another tool maker who shall evermore remain un-named. It almost took a court order to get him to stop. Given that past battle, how could Taunton allow another advertiser?
For the record, I've seen Dino in action at trade shows, and his guide looks quite well thought out.
And the standards are explained pretty well, I think. Check out the House Rules on the start page. Of course, no one ever does.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Edited 2/2/2006 4:54 pm ET by Andy_Engel
Not overly descriptive but I can see how some of the discussions would border on or easily be construed as a solicitation. I came here about the time the "world's greatest invention" controversy was going on. It is night and day but I can not blame the moderators one bit.
3. AdvertisementsSolicitations or advertisements are not permitted outside designated folders, unless authorized by Taunton. For advertising opportunities, email the advertising department of your interest area:
Fine Homebuilding
[email protected]
Fine Woodworking
[email protected]
Fine Cooking
[email protected]
Fine Gardening
[email protected]
Threads
[email protected]
Was he promoting or was he helping out? I came to ask a question of other, more experienced users (which I assumed the forum was for), and-let's face it-Dino is the most experienced user there is, so I would expect that he would chime in at some point.
I agree with the principle-manufacturers or sales reps shouldn't be pushing their own wares, because then you'd just have commercial threads and that gets old. But I wonder now if anyone would post an EZ Smart issue because they know the thread will ultimately get yanked if Dino shows up. And why shouldn't he?
And yes, pulling the thread was a bit much, but I'm sure it was easier than excising the offending posts. Another forum I hang around in has some pretty heavy-handed moderators, and they usually jump in to remind everyone of the rules before things get out of hand. Maybe that's an option? the thread that was pulled, if I recall, had some pretty good advice in it.
Sorry if it sounds like I am whining; I like this forum and think the you and the other mods do a good job considering everything you all have to put up with (like probably doing this on a volunteer basis).
Just food for thought. I'm not looking for an answer.
Thanks.
JohnMaybe someday I'll know a little something.
Isn't there an EZ group on Yahoo?
Yes, Paul B started it, but there isn't a lot of traffic there (and if I remember correctly I posted the question there too). My guess was that there are more people in Breaktime than the Yahoo group with EZ Smart experience, and that the answers posted here would be helpful to a larger group who may be considering a purchase. There's also a forum at SawMill Creek but again I thought the question would be seen by more eyes here.
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Edited 2/1/2006 3:39 pm ET by JJV
It’s simply not fair for a company to get free advertising on our forum or potentially cut Breaktime members discounts in any way.
I'll agree with the part regarding free advertising, however, not fair to offer Breaktimers a discount??
What's so unfair about that?
I don't know that Dino was or wasn't I just find it hard to deterimine what is unfair to Taunton, BT members, or your advertisers, if certain venders offered discounts to members?
I totally agree! I'm sick of seeing this forum used as free advertising for a product. You wanna advertise? Buy some ad space from Taunton!!TFToolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as "Toolfreak")
Dino, would it be possible to add a discussion forum to your web site? Apparantly not many of us want to mess with Yahoo accounts, but if you could do something as easy as Breaktime on your own site, we could all go to your place for the EZ discussions rather than imposing on Taunton.
-- J.S.
there's one at http://www.sawmillcreek.org
Is posting another forum address illegal here? It is at Sawmill Creek. Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
there's always quittin time
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Yeah, that too. Forgot about that one. Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
I just registered at Sawmill Creek. It looks like the best place to congregate. It works faster than Quittin Time.
-- J.S.
I thought Sawmill Creek was out of business, with most creekers going over to WoodCentral.
I guess they're back on their feet.
I just found them this year but what I had heard was they were out of cash and were thisclose to shutting down, but a lot of the users pitched in and it's up and running again. Dino has his own forum there now. I guess he paid for it or something like that. You should have seen the catfights that broke out whenever anyone brought up EZ vs. Festool. Now he's free to plug without repercussions because he essentially bought himself advertising with the forum.Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
The discussion (if you want to call it that) is in the tools area, if you click on My Forums, above.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Oh, you mean over at Knots? Yeah, there is a lot of semi-unfriendly chatter going on in that one, huh? 250+ posts and I would bet half of them are insults or responses to insults.Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
JJV
Unfriendly! Man you haven't seen unfriendly then.
I didn't think there was anything all that terrible on that thread. A lot of people protesting about how terrible some were being, more like much-ado-about nothing.
Certainly nothing compared to the Grizzly drill press thread.
But then I like the heated debates, keeps ya on your toes!
Didnt some one say that you may be a victim of thin skin!
Cant take to much of this to heart, thats what the tavern is for. :)
Doug
Edited 2/1/2006 10:38 pm ET by DougU
I don't think anyone was ssaying directly that I had a thin skin. I don't think I do, anyway. It might have been a reference to the originator of that Grizzly DP thread. You're right, you can't get too worked up about all of this!
I said unfriendly, not nasty. :-) I've been a lurker for along time, and I have indeed seen nasty!
(Edit) BTW I was talking about the fur that flies over at SawMill Creek. Folks there get VERY touchy if anything vaguely commercial creeps in. The guy that runs SharpTools USA (a Tormek dealer) posted with an innocent explanation as to why Tormek would no longer sell throug Amazon, and I mean they just piled on him. Some were supportive, but he really got blasted.
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Edited 2/2/2006 8:57 am ET by JJV
Edited 2/2/2006 8:57 am ET by JJV
The forum at SMC was offered to the ez smart free of charge.
The owner of the forum is a good guy. He loves woodworking and he told me to spend my money on new ez stuff.
Why? Because a tool that can eliminate many problems is good for all.
As for the fights. This guys don't get it.they confuse the ez with a straight edge..
YCf D
this is a test. this is only a test.
John I believe Quttin Time would be the place . Hes helped them a lot and I know they are willing to help him. Thats about all they are talking about over there anyway. Dino shows up there as well.
I think we can email him through here too privately or we were doing it just like each other if hes willing .
Tim
My thoughts exactly. I would think that there would be some easy way for Dino to have a forum. He already has a web site, and it takes orders, so it allows two way communications.
Odd.
I saw it this morning.
--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Hey, good question-I keep checking it because I started it but it kind of wound up taking a life of its own. I did just see it this morning.
Sure is a lot nicer than the shooting board I use............
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Sure is a lot nicer than the shooting board I use............
You can get some ideas how to make your shooter board better,
on the Mickey Mouse woodworking Club.
Have fun Nikki.
YCF D
he's baaaaccckkk!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Hi Huck.
I received this email from Mr Tonton.
Dino.
Feel free to post any ideas that you may have.
Ourr industry suffers and the major problem is recruiting young people.
We think that your ideas can help the guys at the field.
The pro's at the shop and the homeowner
for a safer, easier,
and better work environment.
Our magazine and our trade needs you.
My best regards.
Mr Tonton.
Who the aych is "mr tonton" ??
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Luka.
I have no idea who is Mr Tonton.
But I agree with him.
He send me another email just now.
Dino
As long as you dont talk about your tools.....
We like ideas only.
If the idea becomes a reality, then we have a problem.
I hope you undestant. and if you don't...who cares.
My best Regards and good luck to you.
Mr Tonton.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Luka.
Do you think this guy is REZ?
YCF Dino
ROFLMAOThat's exactly what I was thinking.If not Rez, it's someone else having fun with you. It certainly isn't anyone oficial at Taunton.=0)
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Now we have another MrTonton?
Who is... Mr ROFLMAO?
You guys are having fun with me?
Rez-Tonton-Roflmao.
Not ez to follow up.
Good night guys.
YCF Dino
Member of the
UWS "underground woodworking society".
I think Mr. Tonton might be AndyC beating on a tomtom in his teepee.
be TIPI TIPI TIPI
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
ROFLMAO - translation: Rolling On the Floor Laughing My Arse Off
It just means that someone is making a funny. There is no "Mr. Tonton" Taunton Press is probably named after the Taunton River in Massachusetts. Taunton Press was founded by Paul and Jan Roman. "he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
It's actually named for Taunton Pond, in Newtown, CT.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
You need t fix this. Just do it.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=69207.1"With every mistake we must surely be learning"
Can you explain what you are trying to say, and why?
I may be mistaken, but you seem to have a problem with someone posting a positive review of a tool that actually works. Someone that has nothing to gain from it, except to show others how to work quicker, better, and more efficiently.
There are plenty of other threads here. Maybe you should put this one on ignore and find another one; one where you can contribute something positive.
He must be the Festool Rep. I move we vote him off the island.
lol
Yeah, and he should fix these too
15Ga Nail guns: Max Vs. Hitachi
looking for a laser level
What Tool Did You Buy Today?
Wheelbarrow Compressor Reccomendations
Input regarding Hitachi 16 GA. Finishnlr
Looking for sliding compound miter saw
Bostitch Coil Framer
Hitachi NT65M Modification Tip
best jigsaw
Stud Finder, any good ones?
ToolKing.com/
Need biscuit joiner and router recommend
And about 1000000000 more.
lol
Actually, that's not my job anymore. About the only thing around hear I need to fix is my own bad attitude.
But I think you missed the point of why that disuccusion was deleted. Discussion of products is not only allowed, but encouraged by the powers that be. However, when a manufacturer talks about his own tools, no matter how altrusitic his motives, that's a form of advertising, which is forbibben by the site rules. It's a distinction, but a fairly clear one.
Here's another perspective for you to consider. Instead of people complaining how the big, bad owner of the site trampled over a little guy, perhaps they should thank the owners for allowing him a leg up with what was essentially two years of free advertising. On the other side of the coin are the other advertisers who paid cash money for their exposure at the same time. Do you think Festool for example, who buys ads in the magazines, might have a legitemate complaint here? I do.
There have been several others over the years who were told to stop advertising their products. Nobody complained then, but they weren't quite as popular either. Still, sauce for goose.....Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Instead of people complaining how the big, bad owner of the site trampled over a little guy, perhaps they should thank the owners for allowing him a leg up with what was essentially two years of free advertising. On the other side of the coin are the other advertisers who paid cash money for their exposure at the same time."
OK. Oh yeah, and maybe while we're at it, thank him for two years of uncompensated advice and input to this website, and the craft overall. On the other side of the coin are those advertisers who paid for an ad in the mag, got what they paid for, then want to complain about product exposure on this website... but never bother to show up themselves to hang with the gang, share their input, insights, or advice. Just another viewpoint. :)"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
No doubt, but there are rules. And you haven't addressed how either of your points fit them. And lots of other folks - you, me - occasionally share our knowledge here without compensation. Why should anyone get special priveleges because of that?
And Dino is, I think, still welcome here. He just can't promote his own tools. Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Thanks Andy.
What others may see as promoting a tool, I see it as promoting safety, easy and simply working smarter. I don't think my self as a tool maker and tool seller.I see my self as..YCF D. What GWA report on the..I repeat it was easy, thread, is more than another cool tool to sell or to buy.
The very same cut sends few thousand people to the hospital every year.
The very same cut keeps the young people away from the trade and trade schools closed.
25+ years ago, (a whole 1/4 of a century) I look at the tablesaw and say to my self...someone must working hard to make this thing smarter. Someone must working on another tool that can make this thing unnecessary.
25 years later, ( and more than a million accidents) when I was ready to retired and go back to my old country, (I even bought a Fiat to drive around the country) I saw a crew of young "carpenters to be" freehand cutting tapered fillers for a kitchen installation job.
The rest is EZ history. I made a U-Turn with the Fiat and instead going back to Greece, like Odysseus, I was teaching the young carpenters how not to use this dangerous tool. I wasn't trying to sell any tools to them. and I'm sure that this guys at first thought that I was trying to sell them .....something.
To tell you the truth, I wish that we have no need for "my tools" and that I can drive my Fiat on the old country. You know, the fiat isn't the best car for the NJ twp. They give you a ticket if you drive to slow or to fast, And this "thing' doesn't have cruise control.
ARE YOU IN?
YCF Dino
"No doubt, but there are rules. And you haven't addressed how either of your points fit them."
The rule, as stated by you, is : "However, when a manufacturer talks about his own tools, no matter how altrusitic his motives, that's a form of advertising, which is forbibben by the site rules".
Then you went on to state: "Instead of people complaining how the big, bad owner of the site trampled over a little guy, perhaps they should thank the owners for allowing him a leg up with what was essentially two years of free advertising."
So is what people "complain" about governed by these rules? Is who they "thank" governed by these rules? It would seem so, since that is the issue I was addressing. My response to your comment was that in addition to thanking Taunton, it wouldn't hurt to thank Dino for his uncompensated input over the years. Is that against your rules?
Sure, a lot of people contribute here. But my contributions aren't deleted because I happen to be discussing a subject I make my income by. And any comments I might offer in explaining and clarifying the use of Eureka Zone products is pretty worthless - I know virtually nothing about them, don't even own one. But when a tool manufacturer is willing to come on board, explain, guide, coach, answer - all with a good nature and a calm patience, I think that merits a Thanks, also. I wish other tool manufacturers would follow suit, and I think we'd all benefit if they did.
Now nothing Dino has done has struck me as "self-promotion", and I think the crowd here would pick up on it pretty quick, if that was the case. But none of the regulars here seem to feel that way. Why do you think that is?
As far as your comment: "when a manufacturer talks about his own tools, no matter how altrusitic his motives, that's a form of advertising" - where is that stated that in the House Rules? It isn't, its someone's interpretation.
The home page for this Message Board states : "Courtesy, respect, and common sense are the keys to happiness." So is it against any of the rules to use a little common sense, realize that answering questions about a product, even if its your product, doesn't automatically make you a rule-breaking huckster, and show a little respect and courtesy to a tool maker/inventor who is willing to come on board, answer questions, explain, help out in any way possible?
So yeah, there are "rules" here at this message board. And there are rules of human society. Rules which are governed by the underlying principles of "Courtesy, respect, and common sense." All I'm saying, really, is lets not abandon those principles in zealous pursuit of someone's interpretation of the "rules"."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Huck dude, you like, so rock.
be hey gunner, where's an icon for a trophy?
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Andy and Taunton staff,
I understand your dilemma. You can't be bending the rules for one or you have to bend them for all. I suspect that there is some common sense flexibility in those rules but that may depend on who's complaining and why.
Many tag lines here promote a user's company for example - common sense says that's an acceptable "bending" of the rules. I can't think of the name of the "be your own GC" company that Christy was representing around the time of my exodus but that seemed like an acceptable "bending" of the rules at the time too. The blade rep Doug mentioned on Knots is another good example... There are many more. It would be a shame if you abandoned that common sense flexibility and limited that expert involvement.
People come here looking for answers. Dino has lots of those answers. Can you think of a way that Dino can continue to contribute real solutions to common problems on the forum without putting your policies and relationship with paying advertisers in jeopardy?
Some of the frustration you are hearing here is because of a distinction in Dino's case that clearly sets him apart from your average manufacturer trying to promote their products on this forum. What Dino is promoting is ideas that are nearly impossible to discuss without showing you the innovative tools he has created to solve the problems.
Thankfully, he sells some of those tools because no one else makes them. While he can't be expected to give all of his best ideas away, his site does feature several jigs and fixtures that are not on the market; Just cool ways for you to build something that will let you solve another problem that the current tools on the market don't solve.
Dino promotes products when those products solve a problem. He has done more Festool "advertising" than most anyone here, both on this forum and on his own site. He also promotes Hilti, PC, Makita, Freud... I could go on. It's not about the tools with Dino, it's about the solutions. Whatever solves the problem, Dino promotes it.
What he is discussing is solutions - that is why he is so popular. Some of those problems are solved by the other manufacturers that Dino promotes but many of them are only solved with something he's developed. There is a fine line between discussing a solution and promoting the products that are the solution.
Bottom line, do you see a way for Dino to contribute his solutions to the forum without crossing that line? Secondly, if there is no problem with users promoting a product we believe in, why not put this issue to bed and just restore the deleted thread with whatever tweaks are needed to get it in line with your rules? There was a lot of good input in that thread. I would appreciate it if we could have it back. -Thanks-
> Can you think of a way that Dino can continue to contribute real solutions to common problems on the forum without putting your policies and relationship with paying advertisers in jeopardy?
Sure, it's easy. Just refer people who could benefit from the EZ Smart system over to:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/
where Dino has a large thriving discussion group.
I've been refering people to vendor web sites like SwanSecure, RCT, Xypex, etc. for years. Taunton has no problem with that. We can go into minute detail over there, and nothing ever disappears. We can talk all we want, so long as it's not on Taunton's nickel.
-- J.S.
Thanks John - looks like a great forum.
I'll wrap things up here and head that way. Can you wear a tie when posting in the Neanderthal section?
Andy,
I think you meant to reply to Mike585, as I was with my sarcastic post #116
SamT
Perhaps so. I did want to generally clear up some misconceptions, and your post seemed like a way to do that. Nothing personal intended.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Andy
As I said several days ago, why is it then that the guy from Freud can openly advertise his tools? You brought up the different mod for the two sites deal but you know, rules is rules.
Is it because Freud does advertise in both FWW and FHB? My guess is yes, not that I'd expect anybody to admit it but sure smells like it.
Double standards are double standards, no matter what the excuse.
So go ahead, give me more of that "your momma didn't raise you right crap"
Doug
I can't speak to the moderation of Knots. That's not my job, and never was. I wouldn't have allowed it when I moderated Breaktime, though. Buying an ad in the magazine never did buy space on the website. My guess is that Matt, the moderator at Knots, is too busy trying to make a for-pay site work to moderate much.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
You need to read this, just do it: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=44529.15
If you insist on cutting your nose off to spite your face I'm going to recommend the EZ rails with a Festool saw. That should address the tricky clamping requirements and give you a nice clean cut that will minimize scarring if you later decide to go for a re-attachment.
GWA's nose reattachment went pretty well. It still gets a little out of joint around shortsighted self appointed forum police though.
Edit: Let me just save you a little reading and cut to the post in that thread where Dino's web address was posted on this forum for the first time:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=44529.48
Arrogant little twit back then wasn't I? Obviously I was not interested in promoting Dino's tools - my intent was to set him up for the shellacking I thought he had coming. Does the fact that I just posted the other "advertising" thread you want deleted tell you anything about Dino and his tools?
Edited 2/6/2006 6:25 pm ET by GoldenWreckedAngle
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=69207.49
Point taken. Can we move on?
"With every mistake we must surely be learning"
GWA.. i thought about the festool saw with the EZ guide.. but think about it
with the festool saw you have to plunge it and maintain plunging pressure for the entire cut, it is actually easier ( and get a great cut too ) with a PC, or any other saw with the ez base set up
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Good grief - drop in for a couple of threads and the majority of what I contribute gets blasted right out of the water because someone else didn't follow the ever evolving interpretation of the rules.
Well, you can get on with your search baby
and I can get on with mine,
and maybe someday we will find
that it wasn't really wasted time...