I am an architectural intern interested in becoming the kind of designer builders and clients look forward to working with. I had the good fortune of having a framing contractor for a grandfather. He “hired” me as a member of his crew when I was only 8 years old and taught me more about building character than he ever taught me about building houses (which, over the years was quite a lot). I worked on construction crews in just about every facet of building before I settled in behind a desk to do the design end of it. Most days I still miss the tactile feel of tools in my hand and the smell of sawdust in the air but in a different way I LOVE the art and challenge of design.
Having come from the other side, so to speak, I have a tremendous respect for those of you who translate the designer’s plans into structure. What I would like to hear from you are things you like to see on a set of plans and the characteristics of a designer that makes him/her a pleasure to work with. An example might be the extra corner to corner square dimensions I add to my foundation plans to save a little head scratching in the field and drawing details on the same sheet they are called out on if I can make room. The firm I work for also keys their notes to the CSI Master Format so that every contractor knows exactly what work is his and what work is to be performed by others. For example, all Division 4- Masonry notes are called out on the drawings with a 04200 key number that matches a numbered note under the heading of DIV. 4 Masonry on the right side of the sheet. The biggest advantage for our clients with such a format is that everyone knows exactly what they are bidding on and can price it dead on. We avoid having several contractors figure a little extra just in case they end up having to supply the same piece of flashing three other guys bid on.
I would rather have a contractor cuss me to my face for a mistake I’ve made than cuss me to everyone else he meets and never give me the chance to learn from it. So how about it? What about designers inspires both praise and disdain from you construction artists out there?
Kevin Halliburton
Replies
I see from your profile that you haven't been hanging around too long.
First, I'd suggest trying the archives. We've posted tons of stuff on architects and such here. Try using words like "architect" or "prints" and see what pops up.
Keep in mind that many of the guys here are contractors, and have some pretty strng opinions regarding architects. Don't take it too personal.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a cash advance.
Are you looking from input from the GC and trades as well as the ultimate owner or just the first? Hard to tell from your post. It starts like you want from both but then later you appeared to use client synonomous with GC/trades.
bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's BT Forum cheat sheet
I'm looking for feedback from anyone that has experience dealing with Architects/ Designers. As a clarification- I'm not in the least bit interested in starting another flaming session. I have thick skin but limited time. What I would appreciate most are a few ideas that I can use to improve my service to the entire team that makes a building come together- Designers, builders, clients suppliers and building officials.
Did I already say that I am not in the least bit interested in starting another flaming session? I am a relatively new member of the forums but I've already figured out that land mines seem to be everywhere around here. We've all got better things to do than trash each other. What can I do on my end to make everyone's job easier?
Kevin Halliburton
Have you tried the search thing yet? A great deal has already been posted about this very subject.
Here are some examples:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=23232.1
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=23455.1
Keep in mind that none of us have unlimited time, either.To be upset over what you don't have is to waste what you do have.
Boss,
Point well taken. I did search the forum for about two hours before I posted. Maybe I just haven't figured out a good way to navigate this forum but I found myself wading through a lot of venting with very little in the way of helpfull suggestions. Your second suggested lead was very helpful. Thank you!
Kevin Halliburton
>What can I do on my end to make everyone's job easier?
I design, and have had the "opportunity" to follow behind another designer (and a builder, too) and clean up a mess. The biggest thing I came away with is that there was horrible communication of expectations from each of the professions to the HO and to each other. Archy didn't tell HO what to expect from timing, quality, materials or practically anything, it seems. He had built enough of a reputation to be able to charge top $$$, yet client felt so intimidated by him that she hired someone else to do a better floorplan rather than have the original guy correct obvious mistakes--the guy is one of those "aloof" designers.
Builder seemed to make changes to schedule, sequence, finish, without having a meeting of the minds with the HO (they had a contract, but HO expected that "finished interior walls" meant one thing, while contractor expected it meant something else, for example, and neither discussed their expectations). Archy was of no help in bridging the gap. Didn't even try to help.
I'm not gonna claim I improved the situation, be/c that would be too self-serving, but I talked with the builder, incorporated suggestions, and helped the HO know what to expect at the different stages of construction. And as questions come up, I talk with both builder and HO as necessary to make sure everyone has the same expectations. I guess the summary is, make sure everyone on the project has the same picture in their head of what the final result should be--clear expectations--and remember that your job isn't over when you hand over drawings. Even if you don't have formal oversight of the project, their are times when both HO and builder might benefit from conversations with you.
I couldn't agree with you more about communication. I had a supplier call me the other day and give me a heads up that my fire rated windows in an egress corridor wall could not be manufactured to UL standards without adding a center mullion. He called me BEFORE he ordered the windows and our 30 second conversation saved me wiping a lot of egg off my face down the line. We have a riff or two from time to time but our office figured out a long time ago that taking calls and responding to them quickly is one of the biggest keys to success. Man I would love to be perfect but the fact that I'm not makes me all the more thankful for the contractors who accept that none of us are and give me the opportunity to keep a little goof from becoming a big one down the line.
Kevin, I actually think this is a very interesting question you put out here
and while I am sure this has been discussed a lot here in one way or another
that doesn't mean that the discussion is over with or played out. For one thing
I don't think I've ever chimed in on any of those discussions. I've worked
with all sorts of designers from famous world class architects and interior
designers
to theatrical and trade show/exhibit designers to budding neophytes and I've
seen all types. (well not really,...I am sure I haven't seen them all but I
sure have seen a lot)
When I was young in my twenties I got to do some technical theatre production
work for Robert Wilson a famous avant garde visionary theatre-designer-director-writer.
He was sort of famous for thinking up something on the go, pulling out one
of those big soft lead pencils you used to use when you were
in first grade and then he would just draw on whatever was handy at the time.
That could be the notebook you were carrying, the table top, or the wall in
the hallway. You then had to trace or copy that sketch and build it...
By tomorrow evening...
Exactly as he drew it...
Impossible?
Crazy? Yeah it was but when you were done you realized the guy was an absolute
artistic genius so that kind of ethnocentricity didn't bother you in the
grand scheme of things.
However I have also sat in production meetings for multi-million dollar houses
with teams of architects and interior designers where no one could just draw
out just what it was they were talking about or wanted. By drawing I
mean picking up a pencil and sketching
something so it looked like something. I am amazed at how many designers there
are in all the disciplines (architecture, interiors, theatre, etc) that really
can't draw a lick.
One project in particular that I always think of when I tell that story I
sat there with a sketch pad and drew several examples of the way this one particular
curved stair was going to end while the three interior designers sat there
and said things like:
"well not quite like that"
"can you draw it so we don't see that"
"I'd like it be better if it leveled off here"
I was essentially doing there design work for them. They were making
me guess at what they really wanted! (I happen to be a designer
too but was trained to draw before they trained us
to design)
My vote is for learning to draw . Forget the CAD and/or drafting table for
this one I mean learning to be an artist. I really can't emphasize how valuable
I
think that is. You don't have to be DaVinci but just a little bit goes a long
way in this area. Thumbnail sketches that look like something so that something
like this:
View Image
Can become something like this:
View Image
That kind of drawing!
Aside from the pure communication angle I think learning to draw also is a
key to real creative thinking too. Learning to iterate concepts and
ideas rapidly.
Are by any chance are you familiar with Betty Edwards books Drawing
on the Right Side of the Brain and Drawing
on the Artist Within: An Inspirational
and Practical
Guide to Increasing Your Creative Powers. While I think Drawing
on the Right Side of the Brain may be the best how-to book ever written on
any subject I also think Drawing
on the Artist Within is one of the best books ever on the creative process.
You should also work on being creative, exciting, and interesting (that's
easy
right? wow...) We do some really neat wierd uniques stuff and the quality and
uniqueness of the design (as design, as in art) also seems to also attract ####better
class
of
tradespeople
to work on the projects too.
Kevin the other stuff you've already mentioned such as keying "notes
to the CSI Master Format so that every contractor knows exactly what work
is his
and what work is to be performed by others." Is really great and
I think you are certainly on the right track with your thinking (always look
for ways
to make things easier for others and pretty soon they will gladly jump through
hoops for you).
Along those lines I know one of the things that the guys who work for me like
is they like working drawings that are 8-1/2" x 11" whenever that's
possible or practical (we do architectural wood and metal work so we don't
always need
the big huge
floor plans and elevations that a GC or framing contractor might need). However
as chief estimator I like the big ones so I guess maybe it might pay to ask?
I wonder.
Okay here's one I just thought of too. Offer me the CAD file version too to
look at and review.
You know I'm also thinking you can use your lack of experience to your advantage
too in that you might think up something totally original since your mind
is not already corrupted and tainted with the "that's the way we do things
around here" kind of thinking (zen mind, beginners mind). What ideas do
you have that you think might help to improve the communication channels we
now work with?
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Jerrald,
All good points- nice sketch too. I've done a lot of CAD, computer animation and rendering and love the power of the machine but I've been known to get out of bed in the middle of the night and go to a convenience store just to buy pencils and paper because the urge to scratch an actual graphite line was too intense to wait until morning. (I'm not kidding- it was in the middle of a cold winter too) Both books you mentioned are great! Highly recommend them! I didn't need much help getting in touch with the right side of my brain though. No matter what I do the right side of my brain seems to demand that I get my hands on it somehow. We still burn up the pencil sharpeners in our office from time to time.
Actually, while I'm the first to admit that I have much to learn I'm not exactly the newby that my "intern" title pre-supposes. My ten year high school reunion came and went a few years ago. As I mentioned in my first post, I've been working full time, when I wasn't in school, since I was eight years old. In addition to construction I've done a lot of sculpture, cast a ton of bronze, I'm a fanatical model builder and have an extensive background in sales. Just to keep things interesting I'm also a part time preacher and writer. (are you beginning to understand the length of this post now?) My design degree was in electronic circuitry but it bored me to tears so I went to work for a circuit board manufacturer making the silly things in 1988. I ended up managing the place which bored me even more than designing circuits. It wasn't so much that I was a good manager they were just desperate and I was the sponge brain that had soaked up the most knowledge about how it all worked. I seem to trip and stumble into a lot of things that way which brings me to how I became an architectural intern. (warning- second half of life story coming up)
I went to work for another architecture/engineering firm about nine years ago as a draftsman (I learned drafting getting my degree in circuit design). I went nuts on their oh-so-cool computer animation equipment and worked my way up to a building designer and head of their graphic arts department. I hit the ceiling there about two years ago and butted my head against it for another year before I moved over to my present firm. My state (Texas) requires a professional architecture degree from an accredited university to become a licensed architect. To my good fortune my new employer discovered a loophole that allows individuals who began their architectural training prior to September 1, 1999, complete the Intern Development Program and acquire eight years experience to take the registration exam. See what I mean about tripping and stumbling my way into dream jobs. I was such a lousy drafter when the other architecture firm hired me that they turned me down twice. After the second rejection I talked the CAD manager into letting me come in on my lunch hours and after work just to learn enough to pass their mandatory CAD exam by a wide enough margin to get hired. Now here I am presently completing my IDP requirements in preparation to take the Architecture Licensing Exam. What can I say, I've always done things the hard way. If I had it to do over again I would go for the degree. Heck, if I had it to do over again I would go for a lot of things.
On the other hand, I wouldn't trade the hard knocks experiences either. They've made me a better designer and human being. I think, when I am finally licensed, I will have a class ring from HKU made. (Hard Knocks University) These Aggies around here never take their class rings off! Off course that may be a little deceptive. I'm not sure I'll ever graduate! I'm constantly amazed at how my cumulative life experience gets used in one way or another every day in my current profession. Architecture is very broad based. I think most of us in this profession learn just about enough by the time we retire to finally start our careers.
... hence my post- a lot of you guys have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about how a building goes together. I can't think of a better place to juice my noodles than to wade into the middle of this forum and ask for input. I appreciate anything you can offer that will allow me to be a better designer tomorrow than I am today. Ah-pree-shate-cha!
Kevin Halliburton
Kevin,
I can ashure you most of what you'll learn on-the-job is more valuable than in school. I have my B.S in Arch. There is alot of "busy work" in the circulum. This is to "weed out" the ones who are there to please mommy and dad. In our state(michigan) you usta be able to be regestered without a degree. You would just work for several years and then take the test. Then they changed it that you needed a bachlors, now they have changed it agian(sometime in the mid 80's) that you need a NAAB accredided degree. A teacher I had told me the reason they changed the requiremtnets is that the universitys wanted to keep the students longer. He said most of the university only accredit there masters degree. This is so you will spend lots of money on tuition. Its not becaues there were many buildings falling down, and they needed to tighten the qualifications to be an architect. Its all Politics from the Universitys, they want your $$$$.
Kevin,
I am an architect here in Boston and have a very similar background to yours.
Understanding the construction sequence is crucial in developing CD's that will take advantage of construction efficiencies. I can't tell you how many times I see the youngster detail without any of this knowlege. But you have it so use it. Develop all of your details so that the trades can get in and get out.
Always simplfy. Keep working your details to "embrace" the architecture yet with the simplist contruction possible. Strighten out the pourstops, use lightgauge kickers instead of introducing misc. metals, try to keep details within a trade instead of spliting them up and creating excessive coordination.
Perhaps even more important than expereince, you will develop a mindframe to reduce problems to their simplest form.
Dimensions. Show the ones that matter, and check them. Just by reading your comment about the diagonal demensions you already know about this. I see youngsters all the time ripping dimensions off anything they can snap too, if you clearly show the slab edge or face of metal stud dimensions you will avoid numerous RFI's and head scratching which equals potential error.
One last thing. Be fair. I can't stress this enough. Even if you have to go at odds with your firm, be fair with change orders and don't simply pass the buck when decisions need to be made. Do whatever you can do to keep the work moving forward. If you ever end up on the witness stand then you'll know why.
When you produce documents and witness the work moving along with very few questions you'll know you done a good job. That is the best compliment you'll ever get and the one that truly matters.
Kevin I think you should move to NY and work with us.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Noo-Yourk-SIDDY! Arrr ewe kiddin mee!
Sorry- Texan- Couldn't resist. Thanks for the offer but I spent two winters in northern Iowa and vowed to never go that far north on a permanent basis again. I cose my freester off!
Kevin Halliburton
Someone here mentioned that you should ask questions on things you're not sure about. I agree, and would also say don't limit yourself to asking questions from people in your office - Ask people in the trades.
For instance - I work as a truss designer. We frequently get things from architects that are impossible, or prohibitively expensive. If they would have asked ahead of time, we could have advised them regarding their best course of action.
The architects who DO ask questions, we are glad to help. I've never charged an architect or engineer for my time, although some have offered. I look at it as PR, or just heading off trouble. I wish more would do it. Sometimes all it takes is a fax with a sketch on it, and the question: "Will this work?".
On the other hand, I've offered to help a couple of architects repeatedly, but they refuse. They keep cranking out stuff that's expensive and/or doesn't work. But they don't seem to care. So when people ask me what I think about that particular firm I tell 'em the truth.Trying to understand women is like trying to lick the beater while the mixer is still running.
You guys are great! Thank you for all the excellent input. Several have mentioned the importance of humility in error, involving the guys who are going to build what you design and keeping it simple. I don't know what they teach the Architects at those accredited universities but I've taken several advanced courses on these subjects at HKU. :-)
Still, I would go back to school and pick up that accredited degree today if circumstances allowed. My last company hired an intern architect that was a life link for me. He was fresh out of school, had a truck full of his college books that I devoured, and he loved to talk about what he learned. They stuck him in a cubicle right next to me and I sucked his brain dry every day for two years. One of the nicest guys I've ever met and the best professor I'll probably ever get the chance to study under. He asked me a lot of questions too and I learned an awful lot just trying to find the right answers.
I think that may be one of the greatest assets to a college education. They don't necessarily teach you everything you need to know but they help you find out what you need to learn. One of the most frustrating things to me is not knowing what it is that I don't know but need to. If I discover that I need to know something I'll find a way to learn it but ignorance of my own lack of knowledge is hard to overcome without someone's gracious enlightenment. Everybody has something to teach you!
My wife and I are constructing a new home and it has really helped me think from the other side. I've met with several craftsman in the process of designing and they have been invaluable. A wonderful thing about CAD is that you can build the house in 3D and check everything. I had what I thought was a great layout going until I did the 3D model and discovered that the dormer ceiling in the master bath conflicted with walls on both sides. The conflict didn't show up in my plans, sections or elevations.
I've gone so far as to layout the plywood sheathing for the second floor as I was working out my ceiling/floor joist layout. Tweaking the layout over 1 1/2" saved me about 6 sheets of plywood. Of course I had to shift the walls of the first floor entry hall over with the joist layout because I'm leaving the joists exposed on the ceiling below. I would never have figured that out without actually building the house board by board in the computer. Something that I simply can't do on every job. If I were charging myself for the hours I've spent on my own house design I would have blown the budget about 6 months ago.
On that note- several have mentioned showing only the essential information and checking it twice. What do you field guys/gals consider essential information? I know a few years ago we didn't have to show quite as much as we do now but we seem to be dealing with less experienced crews on a regular basis these days. No slam against the crews. We are, or were, all inexperienced at one time. It's just that we are discovering that there are things now that you can't take for granted like you used to. I don't mind providing any information that is needed but I really hate spending a week on a drawing and finding out it was never unrolled on the job site.
Next to the plan I consider wall sections about the most valuable sheets in the set. We rarely do separate detail only sheets in our office but we draw about 4 sheet of wall sections per most architect's one. We prefer to draw blow up details right on the wall section sheets if we can. We've caught a lot of flack for this unconventional approach from other architects here in town but the builders seem to love it. I find most of the weaknesses in my design when I'm drawing the wall sections. You've really got to think your way through a building to get the wall and building sections right. Probably the best design tool I use. What else do you consider indispensable?
Well, that's enough for now. I'd hate to break the long post record my first week on the forum. By the way, am I just imagining it or do some of you guys never work or go to sleep? Thanks again- you've all been very gracious with your time and wisdom.
Kevin Halliburton
Corner to corner square dimensions on the plans? I like that. I can't remember the last time I saw a perfect foundation, but it would be something to go by. Good Idea.
Turtleneck
If your sitting at a poker table and can't tell who the sucker is... its you. Paul Newman
well.....
admit out loud that designers make mistakes just like carp's do.
and do the revisions on the drawing board.......things always change in the field.....but the field changes shouldn't have to cover what the designer left out.
double or triple check things......make sure all the measurements add up each time
when there is a screw up...don't try to pass the buck......see first sentance.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Welcome,
As Jeff stated,double check all specifications and dimensions. Personally, I've seen some designs that give very little thought to space requirements, and distibution for mechanical systems. This can cause systems to work improperly or inefficiently, which can be very costly to the owners. Alot of modern design seems to be originated without regard to roof drainage, i.e valleys running into walls or dormers, many valleys converging in a small area which is usually near an entrance. I guess one of my biggest peeves is a huge roof area, with no usable space inside. Just a maze of truss webs making a fancy cut up roof. The main thing is communication. The owner, designer or architect, and contractor, need to take a team approach as soon as the basic concept is formed. Lets face it, those of us in the field can usually spot design defects faster than most others. Therefore bringing the contractor into the picture can save some changes, and problems down the road. I prefer this to the finger pointing, etc. that can occur, when part of a design can't be built as drawn. We all make mistakes or misinterpretations, but if we work together, some can be avoided or atleast caught early enough to avoid major cost or schedule problems. I enjoy working with architects, as they help get the decisions out of the owners earlier.That's enough for now.
Brudoggie
DESIGN PROPER SPACE FOR MECHANICALS AND ALWAYS PROVIDE SERVICE ACCESS!!!!!!
Produce working drawings that are accurate to ¼" when read on an architect's rule.
Hideously complex roofs HAVE ALWAYS and WILL ALWAYS be a NIGHTMARE to build AND maintain!
Steer clients AWAY from glitz and TOWARDS craftsmanship.
The simple fact that you have taken the time to ask the question shows me that you are on the right course. I was armed and ready with some witty banter, but after reading your reply to the first response, I shelved it for another time.
Rob
Kevin,
With an attitude like yours, you are already ahead of the game. I wish more designers thought like you.
One thing I would add to the wealth of good advice you have received is don't hesitate to bring in someone from the trades early in the design process if you have a question. GC / builders are often only too happy to avoid problems early. I can't count the times a plumber will tell me that if the building had been designed very slightly differently in the first place how much money could have been saved.
I worked for a while as a design review consultant for a design firm. I just took the working drawings, built them in my head, red-lined the conflicts, and gave them to a draftsman for revision. The design firm and the clients both liked it because this cut down on the number of furious contractors in the office.
Hey, wait a minute . . .I WAS GETTING PAID FOR IMAGINARY BUILDING. AND I WENT BACK IN THE FIELD. I think I might need to have my head examined. <G>
Anyway, do just that. Build the building in your mind, look for conflicts, and resolve them. Never be afraid to get another opinion.
The world dearly needs more good designers. Keep on with it.
DRC