Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 08, 1999 04:44pm | #1

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   As the client you need to be the one setting the limits....decide what you do and don't want, draw up a specification and list all items and work details you require...it's fairer on you and fairer on the contractors,particularly if you are getting a few bids, at least they are all bidding on identical items. You can't compare apples with oranges.

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 09, 1999 07:02am | #2

   *campbemMany items I run across that some contractors include or dont include in their bids are: 1)Land or site clearing 2)Cost of utility deposits,tie ins, etc. 3)Who's buying the builders risk 4)Temporary utility payments 5)Septic systems or wells 6) Driveways. These are a few items that may change a bid. Also be sure both contractors are bidding on the same specifications. Sometimes I bid a job and my price is higher because I always use spruce studs and 5/8" roof decking where my competition is using pine with 1/2". Some items I dont change even if my price is higher. Also be sure the low bidder has workers comp. and liability insurance. Insist on a certificate of insurance. Hope this helps

2. 
   Fred_Matthews | Jun 09, 1999 07:25am | #3

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   The other posters are correct, but I reiterate Mark C.'s advice:
   b don't try to compare apples to oranges.

   The best way to do this is to have Plans and Specs. which are clear and concise.

   b If you don't do the pre-planning in the Plan and Spec. phase, you can never get truly competitive bids.

   Be realistic, i./e. spec mat'ls and mfr's w/in your budget, provide unambiguous Contract Documents, solicit bids from reputable, quality contractors, and don't necessarily take the lowest bid. Interview your Contractor at length, get a feel for their understanding of your particular job, site, etc. and go with your instincts as to who will best address your needs.

   Spell out the Scope of Work
   b precisely
   (i.e refer to brian3006's comments)

   And last, but not least,
   b keep changes to a minimum.

   Once in the throes of construction, those innocent "minor changes" develop into $$ Change Orders. I have seen the inexperienced and poorly planned homeowner's dream turn to an expensive nightmare.

3. 
   Guest_ | Jun 09, 1999 11:19pm | #4

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   Mark, Brian and Fred are right.

   Though I propose that rather than "putting the house out to bid" you search out the right builder for the project. Someone you have confidence in who you can 'work' with.

   Do you hire a lawyer, accountant or doctor based on a bid or hourly price?

   Talk to prospective builders about a negotiated bid or cost-plus fee (flat or percent) arrangement. You need a precise scope of work and specs and plans to get apples to apples comparesons amougnst bids. Drafting them is a drag if you're running blind. You noted you already don't trust the books.

   By partnering with the builder you want to build your house, then he/she can help you understand your options regarding systems and materials for use in your home. They know they have the project and will be more willing to spend time working with you.

   Not all builders are geared to this senario. That's the acid test. I coached a friend of mine in another state to do this when he had his own home built. He interviewed 4 builders and chose one. The arrangement worked out well for the builder and my friend.

   I haven't 'bid' a project in 9 years and all my clients like the arrangement too. I can help them with the planning process rather than wasting my time bidding. Saves me time and them money.

   As soon as we can break the cycle of bidding then all custom homes will be constructed with this working arrangement.

   Talk to a few builders. I'll bet you can work something out.

4. 
   campbem | Jun 10, 1999 11:28pm | #5

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   Thanks for the advice guys. Let me add that I have been referred to the 2 GC's by our Timberframe builder. He works with both of them regularly on his projects, so I feel comfortable with either one of them at this point.
   The reason I'm asking them both to bid on the house is so that I can see what the cost will be and then determine if we need to cut back on certain things, etc.......Also, I will ask to look at past houses they've built to help me distinguish between the 2 GC's. I don't plan on picking the low bid. My main concern is selecting the one I feel most comfortable with and one that pays attention to details. If he thinks my project is as important as I do, that will mean alot to me.
   I have already given both of them the same blueprints and specs. I will be providing even more detail in the next month to both. I agree that I need to feed both of them the exact same info. I guess the gist of my question or inquiry was what to expect in the bid. What I'd like to see is a breakdown of the different aspects of the construction (foundation, HVAC, plumbing.....) and what they are allocating for each part. I'd like to think that this is standard, but I don't want to assume that. That way I can see where I may need to cut back if needed.

   Maybe I'm way off base. But, honestly I don't know yet how much this house will cost based on what we spec'ed out. That's the big mystery. We know what we'd like to spend, but until we know the other piece, we may be moving into the barn.

   Thanks Matt.

5. 
   Guest_ | Jun 11, 1999 06:33am | #6

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   Matt, it seems like you are making a good effort to nail down the specifications so you will receive comparable bids, and I'm glad you are not just jumping at the lowest price.

   I DO think you are a bit off base by expecting a breakdown on such as excavaton, HVAC and plumbing costs ... at the risk of being impolite, why shoud you care? Of what use would this information be to you? What you should be concerned about is the bottom line, based on design, sepcifications, and examination of prior work.

   What you CAN do is to be as exacting as possible in developing those specs. Is it possible the potential builders already have their own standard specifications? I know I always have concerns that I am planning to provide exactly what my client expects, and feel that communications (in writing) are critical, so I try to spell out just what I'm quoting on.

   Here's hoping you settle in with a builder you can come to like, and that your experience is a pleasing one.

   Good luck, Steve

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 11, 1999 07:30am | #7

   *Banks like to see a cost breakdown. Might help you see if you're going a little crazy with the tile in the closets, too.I'm doin' it right now, BB

6. 
   campbem | Jun 15, 1999 04:52pm | #8

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   Steve,

   My desire to see the breakdown is just as Mr. Bucksnort says. Unless I know what our specs will cost in each area, how do I know where I'm over budget? Sort of hard to cut costs when all you have is the bottom line. Sorta like playing the price is right backwards.
   I will find out if the two GC's have their own std's.
   Both are small time custom builders (2-3 houses/yr). I know the one has tried to steer me in certain directions on specs already. I don't need line by line costs, just the major areas as I mentioned.

   Last year had a friend build a house. He told the GC that he had $140,000 some odd to spend. The GC said OK, I can do it. So then he sends my friend and his wife off every couple weeks to the stores with a set amount to spend. They start getting down to the finishing touches like paint and floor coverings and lights and the allowances start getting pretty darn low. Needless the say, the friend never asked the contractor up front what the budgeted allowances for the different stages were. A learning point for my friend. He just told him, I want a house and I can spend $XXXXX amount. This may be an extreme case, but I don't think its out of the ordinary to ask how the major components break out, unless the GC is trying to hide something? I realize the GC has to make money. I don't care about that unless its unreasonable. I care more about, "do I cut back on countertops or light fixtures?"

   Again, thanks all for your comments. I think I'm on the right track. Just wanted some feedback.
   Matt

1. 
   Rebeccah_ | Jun 15, 1999 06:51pm | #9

   *I'm with campbem 100%. I'm in the process right now of working with my chosen builder to make cost-saving changes to the plans (and a few extra cost changes, I'm afraid) *before* anyone digs a hole. So far, I've been able to cut about 10% off the cost, making tradeoffs that I feel comfortable with. I wouldn't have been able to decide what tradeoffs I was comfortable with, without some idea of the costs of different aspects of the construction. I have been fortunate enough to find a builder who "is tired of building boxes" and actually seems to enjoy working with me to make these decisions.

7. 
   Guest_ | Jun 16, 1999 10:07am | #10

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   Matt,
   Buckshot makes a great point about the bank. You might try calling a few and inquire about "custom construction financing" and ask for a copy of thier monthly draw sheet. A draw sheet lists the components of your home, line by line, with a dollar amount that is determined by your budget.
   Framing material-$XXX.XX
   Framing labor-$XXX.XX
   Plumbing-$XXX.XX
   Drywall-$XXX.XX ETC.
   Custom construction loans are in the owners name. The lender disperses monies every month after an inspector verifies that the work is completed
   for line items requested on the draw sheet.
   We build twelve to fifteen homes a year under this program.
   Hope this gives you some food for thought. HV.

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 21, 1999 12:42am | #12

   *campben,When I read your original post I really wanted to respond to it, but I find I can add very little to the answers you recieved. They are right on the money. As per your second posting. I try to breakout as little as possible into individual catagories of work. The "misc." and "overhead" numbers have to be dribbled in and that throws off the whole equation. Sometimes on commercial projects the mechanicals and other sub catagories are given as a percentage of total contract price.If your really more interested in what you will have to do without, or what you can afford to add in. I suggest you get all your ducks in a row first and have the 2 GC's bid identical specs. I usually don't mind answering a few "how much will it cost if we add this in?" questions, but it does take time to secure bidding from subs and estimate things. A much better way if you trust the fellows is to be up front and tell them your budget. A good GC will know pretty quick if you are being unrealistic, and won't take you to the cleaners in the other direction. You can always secure a third bid to check against and keep them honest.You sound like a realistic person who has his priorties in order. The magic 8-ball says :This project will be built on time, on budget, and with happy parties all the way round. Good luck.Richard Max

8. 
   campbem | Jun 21, 1999 12:42am | #11

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   I'm interested in hearing what content should be included in a new home bid. I'll be asking 2 GC's to bid my future house later this summer. I've read the various books/rags, but you folks are GC's, not those writers.

   Thanks, Matt