As some of you know, I’m currently working for a subcontractor to a deck franchise outfit here south of Atlanta. The project we’re currently working on is a second floor, double waterproof deck connected with a walkway all done with IPE. Beneath both decks is a screen room and a 3 season windowed room. Spendy project… The homeowner, a doctor, has been talking with the field super about remodeling their basement including the creation of a kitchen where the garage currently sits. I just sat down and finished writing a (hopefully confidential) letter to the homeowner explaining how their basement project is not a good fit for hiring the deck company to build.
Yes, I’m ready to walk from this job so don’t have any great fear of losing my job at this point… But out of concern for an unaware customer, I’m explaining how the prospect of finishing an entire basement using a deck building company is simply not a good idea. I offered advice on who would be the best fit for such a project (remodeling contractor) further explaining how a deck company simply isn’t qualified to offer such a service. They already had a problem hiring the concrete contractor to do some interior painting which was a total abortion so my points are backed up by their own experiences thus far. My question to any and all willing to offer advice is, should I just keep my mouth shut and say nothing to these folks or should I warn them off from hiring the deck company I’m currently affiliated with?
Replies
It would be easy for me (us?) to sit here and tell you to do the right thing, which would be to tell the HO what you think. But I'm not the one that could lose my job for doing so. The HO indeed has the right to know whether or not a contracting company is suitable for a given project, but are you the one responsible for telling him so? I'm not sure a letter right off the bat is the way to go. If possible, maybe you can strike up a conversation with him and lead him through questions that he should be asking your company.
Bottom line, though, you have to do what you are comfortable with. If you can't sleep at night because you think the guy is gonna get hosed, then you need to take action. At the very least, the HO needs to be better informed not only of what the project entails but also the qualifications required to complete it.
Not a simple answer, but yours is not an easy question. I don't envy you, but I also know what I would do, and I would sleep well afterwards.
Good luck.
FWIW that was well handeled .for between the lines ...i'm with you.b."expectations are premeditated resentments"
"I just sat down and finished writing a (hopefully confidential) letter to the homeowner..."
No way would I send a letter. I would almost bet money that it won't be kept confidential. And it sure could come back to bite you on the butt.
An informal verbal conversation would be a lot safer. It still might come back to bite you, but at least it wouldn't be in writing.
I appreciate your pov but I'm not too concerned with my own backside here. Like I said, I'm ready to walk from this job. I've been in the motions of getting another job and think the prospects are looking better. Regardless, the fact the field super is a greedy fool with no experience in remodeling leads me to believe these people, the doctor, will only get screwed for too much money with little to no quality return on their investment. My boss figures a 1/4" is "close enough" in matters of finish work. I'm not going to throw my expertise at this job for what I'm making let alone carry the ball like I suspect would happen if we got the job. By the way, I was going to go in person and talk with them then give them the letter which would be something they could ponder after the fact. I think I'm going to do it and take whatever consequence comes my way, if any, and at least know I'm doing what feels right in my own heart.
"...I'm not too concerned with my own backside here."
Even if you're not terribly concerned about your current job, but you should be worried about your reputation. Burning bridges can damage it.
Q: Why do cowboys want to die with their boots on?
A: So they don't stub their toes when they kick the bucket
It could affect other/future jobs. (Blacklisting, or just plain bad-mouthing from the boss.)It could turn into a legal bite on the butt, as well.DON'T send that letter. Write it and re-write it all you want. But don't send it.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
Once again, the advice in this forum is impeccable. The letter I wrote is still sitting here and I'm distilling it down to a list of questions instead of the letter format. So many good points have been made I'd be a fool to ignore them.
As for some additional information, the franchise is owned by a non construction type guy who had the money to buy said franchise. He tries to dabble in design of the footprint but has stepped on his d!@( enough to learn to stay out of it for the most part. His 'construction' person, our field super, has never done remodeling in his life. His stint as a deck builder was somewhat dubious from what my boss tells me. He built decks with nothing more than a skilsaw and a drill. How, I haven't a clue but I can only imagine after seeing some of his designs which we have to radically change in the field with regularity. Competence isn't what comes to mind when I think of this outfit...
Our field super is the one pushing to get this project. $$$ are in his eyes... He knows my boss has 'some' remodeling experience while knowing the bulk of my 20 some years has been remodeling. I doubt he could even price it out let alone take into account all the details such a project would entail. I've entertained the idea of doing the job myself but wouldn't cross that line ethically. On the other hand, if I'm not involved in the project, I have little doubt it will become a problem for them to handle on their own.
Like I said earlier, I'm not being paid enough to take it on on their behalf. So rather than carrying the whole smear on my back and letting them make the money while I keep making a pittance, I'll walk away and get other work. All the while, the customer will bear the brunt of the incompetence which awaits them should they hire this deck firm to remodel their basement.
I feel a desire to help these people out yet all of you have made good points on why I shouldn't do the letter thing. Would the list of questions be an appropriate alternative if presented as a guideline to the homeowner in the interest of getting the project planned and executed well? Then they can figure out for themselves the deck outfit wouldn't be a good fit for their project...
Somehow - reading this thread - conjured up the memory of the NYC (IIRC?) rape that occurred by a gang of guys, of a woman...and people were everywhere while it occurred and WALKED ON BY "minding their own bizness"..."didn't want to get involved"..."didn't want to risk getting hurt themselves"...
Just speaking here from the HO perspective, I think it would be appreciated if you spoke to the Doc about general guidelines for selecting a proper outfit: i.e. matching skills/experience to the job to be done.
I would not, however, recommend you give them ANYTHING in WRITING.
This IMHO.
"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it." - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
I'll agree about generic advice - the proverbuial word to ther wise, but not specific negatives about those he works for, especially while he is working there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
EXACTLY
"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it." - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
I'd say first you need to quit the job. You're not enjoying it, you have no respect for your boss. There are better jobs out there and your not going to find them working for this guy. As far as tipping off the doc about getting a bid from someone qualified, maybe a better way would be to ask around down at the lumber yard for the name of a reputable guy (not the one you are looking to hire on with) and call him or her up and pass on the lead, better to propose a positive than to shine light on a negative. And as far as you're concerned, write the letter but stuff it in your journal and read it in a month when you're enjoying your new job. Make a clean break, don't give your current boss reason to bad mouth you down at the lumberyard or where ever he may hang out.
Perhaps another approach is needed here.
You say you have 20 year experience in remodeling. First, why are you working for a hack deck builder? Second, let's put that experience to work and get you some more money and peace of mind.
If the owner of the company, not the starry $$$ eyed super, is willing to take on a remodeling job and knows his experience and that of his super is not up to par, he should be willing to place you in charge of his new remodeling division, fork over a decent pay increase and then back off and let you do it the right way. Customer's happy, you're happy and away from the hack work and the owner adds to his bottom line.
Your quandry is solved because you can be involved in the project on your terms without going behind your employers back to protect a customer. A good job to completion will be a feather in your cap because you got the boss off the hook and the customer will know, without any prompting, that you are the man.
You may also have your first reference (from a satisfied customer) should you decide to strike out on your own. Or as a selling point if you just decide to change employers
Homewright,
Ouch. It sucks to be between a financial rock and a moral hard place.
I've gotten fired from 2 jobs because I told the customer what's what, but I didn't hav a family then.
A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
SamT
I think you should mind your own business - literally
There are processes and orginizations in place to help a home owner screen out unqualified contractors. If you want to strike up a conversation with the guy you could enlighten him on those processes. Buts thats it.
One thing a contractor who is trying to grow his business doesnt need is a rat in his own organization trying to undermine his business initiatives
although you may think they are unqualified, there are many businesses out there (mine included) that have started out specializing in one trade aspect and have done very well to expand to other areas
I can also appreciate your comments but in regard to someone clueless about the organizations you referred to not to mention, he has little to no time to check things like this out, I'm inclined to disagree with you about 'minding my own business'. Aren't there enough horror stories out there about fly by nighters and grifters in the construction racket that possibly avoiding a new one would be a good thing?
And another thing is that while those organization might check on the records of a contractor I doubt that they get that much into qualification for a particular specialty.More important I agree with Ron about not putting it in writting. That could potentionaly lead to a slander law suite.I think that Pointed Questions are really better. And it lets them make up there own minds."You know that kitchen makeover requires a number of specialty sub-contractors. Plumbing, eletrical, cabinet installers, tile constractor, countertop fabicators, etc. All of those specialties need to work together and be coordianted by a GC that is experienced in that kind of work. When we do a deck none of those specialiest are used."Getting then to think about it and for them to start asking the questions is much, much better.For both them and you.
A lot of businesses start out as fly-by-nighters until they get their feet on the ground. Especially in the home improvement market.
This doctor may very well know what to expect in terms of quality from a deck builder. He may be perfectly comfortable knowing he is not paying top dollar for a design build firm.
He may be kicking tires also. Figguring he would run it by the nearest carpy before he gets serious, picking some brains
Not really you place to say anything! How ever if you are able to do the basement and kitchen let your boss know about it. Then no one gets hurt! Might make you feel better too.
1) how soon doy you want to be unemployed
2) your boss should have enough balls to kow if he cant do it, to recomend someone
3) in writing, ypu will see it again I bet
If you are certain that the contractor is not qualified to do this work, then talk to him about it first.If he will still do the work then tell the homeowner, only when all of you are there.I wouldn't go behind his back.Is it possible that the deck contractor is knowledgeable about proposed work?
mike
some princioples to apply here.there is a sucker born every minute
- you can't hope to save them all from themselvesCaveat emptor - let the buyer beware
- you are not the buyerA man should ride for the brand
- as long as you are taking a paycheck from this company, you are part of it. Quit and become self employed or otherwise employed before you say a word.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
(I'm currently working for a subcontractor to a deck franchise outfit )
This statement brings up several questions for me.
Is the project going to be done through the Deck franchise? Or by the Sub Contractor on his own?
If being done through the Deck Franchise, Are they licensed for this type of work? Do they have other subs that are capable of the work?
If being done by the Sub, Is he licensed? Does the Sub you work for have connections to other tradesmen who can sub some of the work?
Either way. I think I would leave it alone if I were you.
One other question. Who is the Deck Franchise? Is it Archadeck?
Kipherr
in theory .... I'm with ya.
sure they sign your paychecks ... but they didn't buy your soul.
If they're as bad as U say ... the HO deserves a heads up.
paychecks don't buy loyality ... they just cover your time already spent.
services rendered ... money paid .... simple as that.
But ... let's think real world here ... a Doc is paying a hack deck company to build his deck ... are they the low-er bidders? Probably ... so here's the first sign of a HO thinking he's getting over on the rest of the fair bidders ...
then ... having a concrete sub do the painting?
Why .. because all the real painters they talked to first wanted real money to do the job?
and now asking the deck company to come inside and do the basement/kitchen?
Again ... strikes me as a Doc thinking it's not all rocket science and the real K and B guys are all trying ti rip him off by giving realistic numbers ...
so yer screwed from the outset. The HO's don't wanna hear reality ....
reality costs too much.
unless .... they're being conned bigtime ...
don't know, not there ....
btw ... buring bridges with rip off artists and hack companies has never been a big concern of mine .... I've told more than one hack to their face that they just plain suck ... the less they're buddies like me the better.
this is a good one ... keep us posted.
one thing for sure ... I'd consider that letter or conversation to be my 2 week notice!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
"But ... let's think real world here ... a Doc is paying a hack deck company to build his deck ... are they the low-er bidders? Probably ... so here's the first sign of a HO thinking he's getting over on the rest of the fair bidders ..."I doubt that they were low end bidders.Probably sold by marketing.Remember this is a Franchise Deck Company.In fact probably on the high end. The money goes into marketing and not the prodcut.
First off, thanks again for everyone's input on this little conundrum I'm facing. It really helps having numerous ideas to explore before taking any action. The latest news is the project is getting back burnered until they get some more money together. This is probably the first time I've seen the good side of 'not enough money'...
As soon as the field super finds out there's no $$$, he'll hotfoot it out of there and go seeking greener pastures. I'm in the same process but looking for work in my field, remodeling/renovation work instead of deck building. I've got a few calls out there and some people to talk with about potential jobs.
I'd make the jump into my own show right now if I had a few more tools together but I'm having to do it one at a time as finances allow. Considering where I was a year ago with not even a belt and hand tools, I'm making good headway. I just got into a reliable truck this past week and the next on the list is a Bosch 12" scms then table saw. It just takes time...and money and some patience on my part.
One thing I'd like to comment on though is how some of the input was almost angry that an employee would have the nerve to call into question certain relevant facts about their employer. My boss, the subcontractor to the deck outfit, is pretty slapdash and not at all what I'd categorize as a craftsman. His boss (field super) is truly an idiot. All talk, designs heavy on work with little reason for them, and basically doing his current job because he can't handle a tool well enough to get the job done well or right.
I've only called their abilities into question because I'm the only one with enough kitchen experience to know how to run the job but I'm low man on the totem pole and not going to do their jobs for them as well as my own. I already do that enough now as it is... So for those who think I'm intruding on someone else's business by giving the homeowner a heads up about needing to rethink the process they'd started, I can only offer the idea that sometimes, in circumstances like I've found myself recently, just turning a blind eye is not the right thing to do. If the shoe were on the other foot and some hack was going to do a job for you, would you want to know the truth about them or be blindsided by results which didn't live up to your expectations for the price you paid?
Incidentally, nothing in writing was offered by me to the homeowner but I planted the seeds of thought to further explore their kitchen options with mentioning the wisdom of talking to design pros and getting the obligatory three bids from people with kitchen references. Hopefully that was enough to cull through the bs the field super has been filling their ears with and get them on a better track to getting what they want. I did my part. Now it's in their hands and I have a clear conscience. Thanks all for the help! This is a great place...
I came down on you pretty hard and with no regrets. Look at it from my point of view. You claim to have valuable experience and also hold yourself out there as a craftsman but in reality you are working for peanuts for a hack deck builder and can barely put together a truck and tools.
Maybe the source of your anger towards your employer stems from the fact that you are frustrated with your own self and your current employment araingement
Something has to give. If you are what you say you are then get off your butt and strike out on your own. Just dont try to climb the ladder by stepping on other peoples fingers.
This is america, the land of oppurtunity. Anyone who wants to can go out on his own. The streets are paved with gold. Many people have pockets bulging with money and are willing to pay handsomely for your services. The brass ring is dangling over your head. Are you gonna reach for it or are you gonna complain about your boss day after day?
I've pretty well told it all about my life on this forum. I won't rehash it to justify myself. There's a grain of truth in your words yet you know little of what I am dealing with. That's fine. I came on here for advice. You gave yours as others have offered as well. I was genuinely perplexed by this ethical challenge and feel I've handled it as well as I could. A day doesn't pass I don't have progress to show for my efforts though it isn't as quick in developing as I'd prefer. Nonetheless, the challenges have been many and still I rise to take it on again. It's not always about money... Part of my recovery is being brutally honest with myself and it has a carryover effect I'm trying not to hold the rest of the world to. But sometimes...
I'm not angry at you and hope you end up doing well, But I was pointing out a principle, that when you bite the hand, so to speak,( even if that hand deserves a nip or bite) you get branded as a bniting dog. Who wants to deal that way?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your input is always welcome, Paul. I recognize my own impulses aren't always in my own best interest. That was a motivating factor for putting it out on here. Everyone had something valuable to add to the discussion. I'm not above recognizing when I need help and trying to get it even if some of it doesn't seem 'good' at the time of delivery. It's still good though. It helped me step back and take a different approach without pointing fingers or saying anything inappropriate to the customer. My boss was standing there when I mentioned the designers and didn't even flinch so that was a good sign. It just seemed by posing the question, my morality and ethics wer called into question. It wasn't sitting well doing nothing so coming on here was the first step of several resulting in what I feel was a good resolution.
Thanks again. Jerry
thumbs up
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Homewright,
I'm with Boss Hog. Leave no written trail. You may not care about your job but how about later on when you end up in court because you damaged the reputation of the company. The question is going to be asked " How are you qualified to determine if the company is qualified to do such work or not". There is no way you can answer that and svae your A$$.
If you feel that strongly then pull the homeowner aside and have a brief talk with him. It will probalby back-fire on you.
This guy already hired the Concrete Contractor to do some interior painting? You may not have seen this yet but this guy thinks any clown who will demean himself by performing manual labor is interchangable with any other. You'll get burned
H.W. .....Sounds like a major remodel , might want to ask around about the Archy's stamp of approval of job to be done ,covers home owner , gives crew direction and may let you really shine because of your experience. If your boss is asked for a bid it may scare the hell out of him ,when plumbing , electric and HAVC get involved by licenced Pro's . Might want to mention to your boss that a prefomance bond should cover him in the future call backs. Contract , contract ,paper work usually scares off the people that are out for the fast buck. You might want to introduce yourself to the local building inspector. Sounds like you got a foot doctor doing brain surgery. The best of luck to you ,this delima will only make you stronger in the future and may be the spur you have been looking for "to go for it" concering other thoughts you've been having.
Be careful . You could be screwing yourself and not know it . The world is not that big . You can make a reputation for yourself right away as a backstabber , or a work grabber . And everyone in the trades will know it and know your name . It sounds to me like your bitter with this man for another reason . Yes , No ? Whatever you do be careful . You don't sh## , where you eat !
Mike - Foxboro , Mass.