I am an avid reader of this forum, even if my post total is still in the minor leagues. In the course of reading here I have noticed that, while most posters seem to be from the U.S. and Canada, there a more than a few chiming in from around the world. That coupled with the fact that I just moved to Switzerland from the U.S. has me wondering just how different trades training is from one country to another. In the states, when I started about 11-12 years ago, I just picked up a hammer, got on a crew and bam! I was a carpenter (o.k. that is a little bit simplistic, but not much, and maybe I wasn’t a great carpenter to start). My point is, even though there are apprentice programs through unions and various trade schools, many people start out just that way. Here in Europe the feeling I get is that if you do not go through the school system and get your diploma you will always have a difficult time getting accepted. I was hoping some of you around the world can clue us in a little on just what your training is/was like. Thanks in advance.
Brad
Replies
THis is an excellent idea I am a non traditional carpentry teacher and my boss is trying to get me to introduce an apprenticeship program through the local HBA. I too would like info on training around the world!
I too am interested, i think any good craftsman will participate in training/education to improve their skills. In my experience most of the learning happens in the field, at work and feel it is the job of the more experienced to teach. I am curious to know what type of non traditional carpentry you are talking about blues?
I think in some ways this is a result of the educational system in the US being so focused on getting everybody to go to college. There's little -- and increasingly less -- done in many school districts to prepare kids to do anything other than go to college, whether four years or two. This reflects the general devaluation of the trades as (potentially) good stable and valuable careers. If you're not college-bound the school is not too interested in you. On top of that an increasing number of school districts have done away with their shop programs. On the other hand, there are a number of programs at community colleges and technical schools that do offer good training. Some trades require formal training before one can be liscenced, others allow the kind of on-the-job training aquired through an apprenticeship. Both are probably valuable.
The students are non traditional meaning they aren't right out of high school. My students vary in age from 18 to 55.Obstacles are the things you see when you take your eyes from the goal!
Just ask Mikey........
"Mike Smith" that is.
He'll probably let you know if you can hit a nail or not..
Then again Piffin might have a word of wisdom for you too..........
Who decides is Your customer..........
If they can see the pride you take in your profession and professionalism you will be paid appropriately"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
In 100 years will people be looking at our work and wondering what the hell were they thinking????
when people call me a carpenter it still surprises me.
i started 8 years ago digging holes. then i laid a few bricks and went on from there.
one thing i do feel is that because i don't have any formal training and i am more or less completly self taught that i have to work to a higher standard than most people so that its very difficult to pick holes in my work.
having never worked on large construction sites i've never had the benefit of being taught to say" sod it , its not my house , i haven't got to live here: that'll do"
an attitude that is far to common in the UK and probably everywhere else aswell.
i'm always learning new things, but i'm always doing somthing different as i find i get bored if i do the same thing al the time.
aleks
On large jobs it seems anyone who doesn't have any other title and provides their own tools, laborers don't and helpers seldom had their own tools, was called a carpenter. I guess for lack of a better description.
When I first started as a carpenters helper, lumber toter and gopher. I was told, once I had demonstrated some ability, that I would make more money as a carpenter once I started wearing a tool belt, hammer and tape.
A bit before my time but I was told many years ago you could tell the rank of the worker, helper, apprentice, journeyman or master, by the clothes worn and tools carried. Somewhere in the move toward casualness all this was lost. Seems to me a lot of pride in work, workmanship and respect for workers was lost as well. A shame I think.
4Lorn1 and Kostello,
I think you both are on to something here with the "attitude" aspect of this. I wonder if a more formal training instills a more formal sense of pride(there are always exceptions, of course, as I think we all know), from not only the workmanship but also care of tools, dress, manners, etc. It seems to me that if you undertake something knowing it is your career, you might put some thought into the secondary stuff as well. I take a certain pride in wearing carharts and a shirt with a collar and good boots, keeping my tools and truck clean, etc. One thing I cannot stand is ripped sweat pants and tennis shoes untied on the site. Not only is it unsafe, it just says to me "I am sloppy and you can expect my work to be the same".
brad
My Carpentry career basically started when I was in collitch.
Started in Mech. Engineering,but lost my "focus" so after a year at a gas station(talk about career motivation!!) I found the Building Construction Emphasis of the Wood Products Engineering Dept. @ SUNY Coll. of Envir. Science and Forestry @ SU.
Learned all the "Book-Stuff" about construction.
Then was told by the College equivalent of a guidance counseler that I should be looking for a 25-30K$ job in the construction industry.
Well I probably gave more than a few people in the field good belly-laughs any hoo!!
So I decided that I neeeded a little experience.
GF's bro at the time was working for a gc but going back to school so I took his spot @ 5.00$/hr.!!!!
This guy was patient enough to give me whatever responsibilitys I could handle, so I learned that I could get to like it.
About 4 mo. into the RW I realized that for me smoking pot and constuction was a bad mix, so I gave up the wacky weed for my New Years resolution.
about 6 weeks later I cut the tip of my left index finner with a jointer, And thus learned to be REEEEEAAALLLLY careful around tools with spinning sharp parts.
About a year after the jointer incident I discovered my first copy of FHB.
I read it cover to cover that night and subscribed the next day!
More that any other outside influence this mag has been my mentor thru the years.
Along the way I have done some timber-framing, boat building, furniture making(not the fine type yet) and commercial work.
I keep all my back issues of FHB, FWW, JLC and Wooden boat in a prominent place on my bookshelf.
whenever I need something to read I grab a random back issue and relearn something!
As far as people I have worked with, I have had the fortune to work with some great carps. But never really in the master/apprentice mode.
So I asked questions and envied tools and watched the good ones do it.
I am always talking with whatever sub is on the job, learning what I can and applying it to what I do.
This has probably been my second best source of knowledge over the years.
So to answer your question:
YOU decide you are a Carpenter!!!
By learning and doing and learning some more.
And by having a Professional attitude.
and also by learning to laugh at the inevitable idiocy that seems to be prevalent in the world today.
nuff said......
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Better to have that question asked in 100 years then in 5-10, no?
Bob
and Bob,
I actually don't consider myself a carpenter. I am a builder, or a remodelor. If you took all my carpentry experience and totalled it up, You might only have eight years. I know a l;ittle about a lot of things, but put me on a carpentry drew and i am likely to slow them down.
When I worked the condos crews for a couple years, I usualy ened up being the back up framer, fixing the goofs and missing parts, or exterior trim carp, because I was willing to handle being four to ten storeys up in the air, or being put in cahrge of some project, because i can see the overall global scope of things. ^The carpenters I hire are generally faster and more accurate than I am by virtue of doing it more.
When I change from roofing to concrete to trimwork to painting, all in one week, it keeps shifting my mental angle of attack, but a global view is needed for remo work..
Excellence is its own reward!
I like remodel work "it's a challenge"....
but Piffin do not under estimate your skills. Just cause you can't jump 6' from one 4x12 to another 12'in the air is no reason not to call yourself a carpenter.
It takes alot of falling down before you realize it is easier to get up if you take some of the nails outta your bags............:-)"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
My Mom calls me a "contractor" and a "builder". Must be that Jewish thing.
I call me a "carpenter".....a Jew Carpenter.......lol.....rare huh? Most Jews are lawyers doctors and in the entertainment bizz....cept me in one of my last lives.....
I just keep comin' back with my back hurtin' me tryin' to improve my skills....maybe I should take a hint and go into the entertainment field
Be JC
acMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
When I was a kid I was going to be a nuclear physicist. Runs in the family, that sort of thing. Then I got a chance to do a little hard work and liked it. Someone gave me a little project that required some adaptive use of scrap material and limited tools and bingo I was hooked!
I was fortunate enough to get hooked up with a guy 15 years my senior who wanted to make sure that he got the chance to pass on what the old guys taught him. His mentor was an old fella who made his own job site scaffold, never owned a truck and was one hell of a carpenter. When my mentor "pinched" his mentors hand saw one day, the old boy walked over, grabbed the saw, eyed it for damage,-then held it by the end of the blade and whapped my mentor on the head with it and said don't you ever do that again! He did'nt.
I learned the old way how to make things right the first time and do them well. I love to watch modern guys come up against the old stuff and just scratch their heads. I get a chance to pass on some of what I was taught or have learned, Whap.
Curley
From what I gather here so far, it seems that most posters here have something in common--a strong, independant drive and a willingness to take some risk and responsibility in order to learn their trade/carpentry; not to mention pride in what they do. I think the U.S./Canada way of doing things encourages this and rewards those who take on that task. In this case pride is not one of the seven deadly sins, it is rather necessary, the ever-present quality control that ensures the job is done well. But, it also leaves a lot of room for screw-ups. Let's face it not everyone takes pride in what they do. The fact that we are all talking here on the Fine Homebuilding board already skews the input to the top of the scale. I am still wondering if a more formal system of education in the trades, a more European system, sort of brings the overall quality up industry-wide or, as Stan mentioned in the case of Unions, tends to stifle creativity.
As for those (Piffin, Stan, etc.) who are reluctant to call themselves carpenters because they recognize some of their limits, I say it is guys like you who give carpentry a good name. No one can know it all or do it all well. But, traditionally, it is the carpenter who runs the show on the job because he does know at least a little of everything and, as Piffin pointed out, he has (or should have) the global view necessary to see the job gets done right.
Carpentry is the umbrella term that describes what we do, there are good and bad ones. Those who earn the right to call themselves specialists (starimakers, cabinet makers, furniture makers, etc.) are still carpenters, IMHO.
brad
Curley,
I do a lot of remodeling--craftsman and victorian era houses. And, yup, I have spent many, many hours scratching my head and wondering how they did that. But, that is what makes this so fun, figuring it out as you go and making it look good. Consider yourself lucky that you got the chance to learn it from someone who knows. I am sure you will pass it on also.
brad.
andy I think you all ready are in the intertainment biss! I mean you entertain me every time you post!
and I mean that in a good way bro
Edited 11/9/2003 9:18:08 PM ET by TECONAIL
Edited 11/9/2003 9:35:29 PM ET by TECONAIL
I never had any " formal" carpentry training, either. What I had was my father AND grand father yelling at me most of the day as I made new mistakes and tried their patience. When I started out I never planned on making a career of it, but 30 years later I find its not such a bad way to earn a living. I do read several magazines and attend seminars to try to stay up tp date with new materials and techniques. I know this isn't exactly what you were asking about, but I thought I'd add my two cents anywat<G>
Hey, my hat's off to a 3rd generation carpenter any day.
actually, my great-great grandfather was a carpenter, too. I'm lucky enough to have some of his tools. My great grandfather was an accountant. We don't know what happened with him!
He got smart
Actually, your answer is what I was asking about. I am wanting to know how people start out, where they got their training, what they do to learn more, etc. I also think that "on the job training" is really the best and fastest way to learn PROVIDED THAT you are learning from someone who knows what they are doing and who takes pride in what they do. It just seems to me that here in Europe you need the diploma from trade school to even get you on the job site. But, as I said, I am new to Europe and was looking for some international input on whether or not that is the case. Both my grandfather and father were carpenters, but by the time I was old enough to work, my father was no longer working in the field he was running his own company which, of course, keeps you busy. So the projects I worked with him on were his hobby projects which was mostly rebuiling and restoring horse-drawn carriages and sleds. Like most everyone here has said, there is always someting new to learn and the more you learn the more you realize there is more to learn.
brad
I think I was lucky with being able to work with both my dad and grandfather. They started their business in the 50's after their boss retired ( he was in his 80s! ). I only worked with my grandfather for 3-4 years before he retired, but I worked with my dad for almost 20 years before taking over the family business myself. In the last couple of years I've worked with several other carpenters, and I suddenly aware of how much they both taught me without me realizing it.
I had the benefit of serving under a Master Carpenter (European) for several years. At the point he cut me loose (to either go on my own or work for others) I became a Journeyman.
At somepoint beyond that time (several more years possibly) I became a Carpenter!
I don't believe that this is often the case any more in America as it used to be the norm. He would tell us tales of how the apprentices would be expected to set a lunch table for the Carpenters! Too many people today 'learning' from others who know very little themselves or care much about quality and even less about thier tools. A bucket is NOT a tool box, nor would I consider store bought apparatus a saw horse.
Many people will often develop an attitude toward me for stating what I did above; assuming somehow that I am a self proclaimed expert.....lol....25years later I am still learning something new everday, make mistakes like all humans, sometimes the same DAMN ones and somedays (rarely) turning everything into gold!
Good luck in your assimilation.
Eric
i must be cause it says it on my truck. worked many a year for 6 or 8 bucks an hour just to learn from different old timers but they had to like you if they were going to give any of it up. carrying 2x10x22 through ankle deep mud was always fun. learned how to trim real quick.49 and still loving it
My "carpentry" career was an evolution....from always building stuff as a country kid (nothing like cow barn and sheep shed remodeling to get past the hack phase) to a construction Millwright apprenticeship, a few years as a Journeyman, more years as a supervisor of my peers...and then, after the demise of the Old-Growth timber industry, diving into self-employment and working with 16th's of an inch instead of .001's.
And building a number of wooden boats over the years taught me about working with patience and ever-changing dimensions and the joy of working with battens and curves.
But for me, the best training for residential carpentry was doing renovations and remodeling on old houses....seeing the result of poor building practices, the benefit of good building practices, the importance of ventilation and drainage and flashing and weatherization, etc.
In addition, having a lifelong passion for construction, and building things and repairing things, getting my hands on reliable reading resources and poring through them was of invaluable benefit.
I still don't consider myself a "carpenter" but I love working at it. I'm now a small volume G/C (a couple custom homes a year) and enjoy sharing skills and tools with receptive and motivated "youngsters."
I do not consider myself a carpenter. To me..that title belongs to one that is proficient in all the niches that make up that title.
Local 44 calls me a carpenter..and I disagree. I specialize in stairways...but am not proficient at all in framing, and many other aspects that a carpenter does. The unions are very good at giving broad training...but I believe the creativity is stifled when everyone makes the same amount. The incentive to apply oneself and specialize is not there...as you wont get paid one more cent for it. I left the union and removed the ceiling that I felt should be removed.
Edited 11/8/2003 6:45:50 AM ET by Stan Foster
When I take out a torch and some solder they call me an idiot.
When I wear a tool belt they call me a carpenter.
When I pull out a contract and a red pen, they call me an SOB.
If I wore a dress and fancy hat they'd probably call me the Queen of France. Guess I can settle for carpenter. Got an engineering degree and 30+ years experience building pretty much anything in wood or metal. Queen Anne furniture or houses. I'd rather be called a craftsman. No formal apprenticeship, but a lot of education and a lot of practice.
The schools in this country are very one-sided. Everybody just has to learn computers and go to college. I don't agree. Computers have their place. But so far as overall impact on society, I think a nice job of setting a toilet is a heck of a lot more valuable than another doofus who can use Excel. If I could have taken some trades courses in high school it would have been good. But, they didn't offer anything substantial and the schools are doing even less now. My local school system just disposed at auction of all their woodshop equipment. Too much liability to let kids use a table saw or jointer. They have no wood, metal, or auto shop anymore. They have a ton of computers. I guess they think the computer skills will come in handy working behind the counter at Burger King. This state is not union so there aren't any apprenticeship programs available. This is obvious from the quality of helpers I can find. I hope its better in other states, but I don't like the situation here.
Man Stan, anyone that can frame a radius wall, take a straight piece of lumber and not only bend it,but bend it to the correct rise, radius, and angle, then mortis treads and risers and place them where their supposed to go..............
Then after all that the customer wants a railing???????????????
You are the ultimate of carpentry and fine woodworking and in my book, a master craftsman and whirlybird guy............
Now I know how you got into gyro copters.........
Going up and down so many spiral stair cases"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
After having quickly read everyone else's ideas on this subject, I thought it was time to add my own, and touch on a subject that is a big thorn in my side. I would think it happens everywhere, but it is widespread here in New Jersey.
First, I call myself a Master Carpenter. And I do not think this should be a generalized term. I have been working with wood for about 40 years, and doing it for a living for 30. I started when I began helping my grandfather build furniture in our basement when I was 10 years old. I still build my own furniture. I never intended to get into this line for a living, but the economy and Afirmative Action forced me out of college in the 70's. I took a job with a construction company as a laborer, expecting it to be temporary, until I could afford to return to college. After the company's owner saw my abilities, he made me an apprentice. For the next five years, I was attached to him at the hip. We did all phases of carpentry; framing, sheathing, lathing, flooring, trimwork, cabinetry, roofing, ( in wood, asphalt, slate, copper, and metal), stairbuilding, working in the round, door and window building, and more. He had a simple way of teaching. You watched him do it, and asked questions when he finished. Then you got to help him do it. Then you did it yourself while he watched, and he would give periodic advice or criticizms. After you could do it correctly, you did it again and again, until you could do it proficiently. It was then you were good enough to do it on your own.
In my mind, a framer is proficient in framing, a trimmer is proficient in interior and exterior finishes, and so on. A master carpenter has to be proficient in every aspect of construction. A master builder is a rare thing indeed, for he has to be proficient in all trades. I can do electrical work and plumbing, I can lay block and brick, and I am a certified welder. But it is with wood that I am proficient. Therefore, I consider myself to be a Master Carpenter.
This leads to the thorn in my side. I believe there should besome controlling organization that sets a standard of quality for builders or contractors. Here in New Jersey, most towns require a builder to obtain a license; but it only requires current liability insurance. The homeowner is protected if you screw up, but that is it. New Jersey electricians and plumbers must be licensed, so why not contractors?
Someone said it before in this forum. All you need is a truck and a hammer, and POOF! your a contractor. Bid a job, take a deposit, disappear, and do it again. Every morning, the Home Depot parking lot is full of these imposters. When the homeowner gets shafted, they have no recourse. Because of this, my project contracts are filled with guarantees and provisions for completion. My insurance bill is equivalent to a worker who never shows up. But the hardest part to accept is that I am considered to be one of these fly-by-nights, intil I prove otherwise. Builders are shady by default, and this is what needs to change.
Now, I realize that these two subjects upon which I preach from my soapbox are not the same. It would be wonderful to have required credentials for contractors, but this would not offer any proof of being a carpenter. What it would do for me, and I hope for many others reading this letter, is that it make it much easier for me to stand and claim to be both, with pride.When all else fails, use duct tape!
Daddoo-- I couldn't agree with you more! I live in NJ too, had my own business for 10 years, and finally got disgusted justifying myself to every new customer. Something needs to be done to protect the professional carpenter, but it will be an uphill battle. BTW, where abouts are you? I'm in South Plainfield. It sounds like we're about the same age, too.
Shep,
I'm from Caldwell and I always said that we should have a meeting at the PNC Art Center with all the Legit Contractors out there and make everyone get a license. Plumbers and Electricians have them why shouldn't Carpenters have them especially Framers, I'll take whatever test they want to give, this would weed out all these fly bye nights.
Joe Carola
I'll sign up!
I have always said that anyone purchasing home improvement materials should have to show proof of thier competancy.
Especially caulk!
HD and lowes would be out of business.
Too bad so sad!Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Most of those other professions that require licensing - like physicians - started with guild type prganizations to police their members and to uphold standards. Licensing grew out of that.
In Europe, much licensing is more related to political patronage, with licensing stemming from the throne controlling all means of trade and production. More top down than here but they also had guilds controling the craftsmen and the training.
The thing here, for guys who want licenses to control who does what and how much they make - do you guys belong to an organization? Paying dues and participating in meetings at the local chapter of HAHB or the remodelors council is the first step. If the public in your locality recognizes that logo as a badge of honor and quality, they will flock to member contractors..
Excellence is its own reward!
Right around the corner in Iselin, (just a DOT on the map), but the vast majority of my work is in Westfield and Short Hills. Money goes where money shows.When all else fails, use duct tape!
As a fellow New Jerseyan, who spent 5 years in Las Vegas with the "wonderful" contractor licensing system that have there, I've got a few comments:
Licensing on contractors, unfortunately, does nothing to prevent the dregs from becoming licensed. All it does is raise the costs a bit, since you have to pay for the exam. It does, however, create a mess when one gets pigeonholed into a license category, and has a hard time bidding work outside that category. It works for electricians, as they are licensed to perform "electrical work", and that's what they do. Same for plumbers- they do plumbing work.
For carpenters, the licensing programs create so many different categories, that you've got to have 20 licenses to do the multitude of tasks that we do on a daily basis. The way around that is with a "general contractor" license- problem is, as a GC, you're required to perform at least three trades in a project- no interior trim by itself (that's a "trim carpentry" license), no decks (that's a "general carpentry license"), and no window replacements (that's a "doors and windows" license").
The only ones who benefit from the licensing are the members of the license board, who get their fat government salaries for creating a myriad of absurd regulations to keep themselves employed. Just ask anyone from California- I'm sure they'll attest to what I've said.
Now, if one wanted to talk about forming an association, such as NARI, to which carpenters could belong, and create testing and certifications for members, that's a different story. I'm all for that, and would be happy to help create it. I believe NARI recently created a "Certified Carpenter" certification program (similar to their "Certified Remodeler" designation), but I'm not sure what it entails. This would allow a recognized "standard" against with your unregistered "competition" could be weighed.
Anyone up for helping set one up????
Bob
I've done some work in Westfield, too. Lately I've been either up near Mendham or down in Monmouth County.
Daddoo: Now having read your post...your experience in all aspects of carpentry lets you freely admit you are a master carpenter. Your proficiency in all areas of carpentry allows you to proudly claim that title. That is a title I will never come close to achieving.
In my case, even though I specialize in curved stairwork...I can honestly say I will never feel worthy of being called a master stairbuilder. What I call a master stairbuilder is one who can do the tangent method of railing...cutting wreaths and whole rails out of the solid. I have several books on the subject..and though I somewhat understand it....I have never actually attempted it,,nor do I ever intend to....unless a customer absolutely wants it and he wants to pay the exorberant price I would charge him while I was learning on his dime.
Bob: I am being as honest and not trying to be modest when I dont consider myself a carpenter. I am specialized in stairways..and yes I feel I have learned a lot..I also have a lot more to learn. But if you throw me amongst some rough and ready carpenters...I do not hold up my end.
by the way......in case no one told you..I say who, and who isn't a carpenter.....before my AC initials it was JC
Be well
andy
My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Jesus Clifford?????????Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
As a newbie here...I actually started out backwards. My first job was building display fixtures and then doing interior boat trim. I then moved on to building custom cabinets and soon interior trim work. The company I was doing trim for fired one of their framing crews and asked me to join them on a new crew. I was taught mostly by dope smoking losers at the time (1981?) but I learned a lot here and there. I have since learned about every aspect of building (except hvac) but the biggest lesson I learned was to learn all you can and do it the best way possible.
I am 39 now and my work varies to everything from trim to framing to installing tile to complete remodeling/additions.
That would be a nice rise/run ratio for a stairway :)
in cabinet making what amount of thikness is taken out of a dato
The right answer for the header is the Draftsman or Arch. Us carpenters are only to follow the plan and make what looks good on paper look great in reality. I knew that from the begining.
what do the numbers 7 -11 apply to?
Coffee and donuts
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
92 5/8 precut less 9 1/4 header add 1 1/2 sole plate = 84 7/8 or at least 1/2 above the top of where the window is sitting. Hey I've even put headers above the wall and hung the trusses off of them. There is few rules I havent had a designer tell me had to be broken to satisfy their Ideas. Sitting windows....standing windows.....windows for looking below.... windows for looking down..... even windows for looking through a corner where the glass bends 90 deg. To my point ... they think it .... I do it.
Strongback support Whalers on a form. Or what you need in the event you have a week mind.
7/11 is the placement measures for the top of a but hinge but it doesn't work so good for three hinge placements because I can't find the " / " on my tape so I use 6, 36, 69 on an 80" slab or what ever I feel like because it is my door. Bought on credit... paid for in time.
7'-11" equals the finised ceeling hyght aftur uu hang dry wall and install flooring??Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Thats where you go for coffee.
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
O.K., I'll bite since my name in on the challenge. I always liked games and I'm sure that I'll learn a little something here, it happens all the time. I am still a loooooong way from being a Master anything, so these answers are my best reasoned guesses.
7-11: i have to agree with noitall on this, top and bottom measures respectively for hinge mortise.
header height: not sure if you have a fixed number in mind, but in the work i have done so far, it varies considerably depending on window size, header size (due to number of stories above, loading, etc.). But, usually I put the header up snug to the top plate, with cripples below if necessary.
2.414: you got me there.
Dado: take out 1/3 of the thickness of the material you are cutting into.
Bathroom mirror height: 72" from finish floor to top of mirror. this gives the average person (5'10") about 6" from line of sight to top of mirror. In reality, usually I call the homeowner in and adjust it to meet their size.
closet rod: 60" from finish floor
pilaster: a partial column attached to the wall.
stron back: 2-2x materials nailed/screwed together at right angles along the long edge. Could be for concrete forms as noitall said, but I have screwed them also across the tops of ceiling joists, perpendicular to joists, to give stiffness and to help pull the occasional drooper back into the correct plane. I do a lot of remodeling.
Well, how did I do? I hope to get at least ONE right.
brad
2.414 = the ratio of the width of an octagon to the length of a side.
1+sqr rt of 2=2.414Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
"how much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?"
Well considering that the wood chuck is a tree hugging liberal he would refuse to chuck wood. Even in california during the wild fires that flattened all the homes not to mention the root systems that is holding all the dirt up on those mountains.
"prediction" many landslides in california!
What is the speed of an unladen swallow?
It's always easy to ask a question of someone that will make them look dumb by your measure.
The best measure I use is a persons past work, their clients approval and the condition of their tools.
I consider myself a master carpenter as three generations before me has but I by know means profess to know everything.
Carpentry has changed since my father's day. He would not do drywall, roofing or cabinets. He framed and built houses. He hired a person for a specific trade, a roofer for roofs a plaster for plaster and so on.
I have done less traditional carpentry than I have done everything else. My strength is in custom cabinetry and traditional carpentry but my work crosses from electrician to plumber to roofer and painter and so on.
Often when asked if I do carpentry I ask the client to define a carpenter. Seldom do any of them list just carpentry. They usually say," Ah.. You know roofing painting, house stuff."
Even when I spent 20 years in my local union most of the work here was at the refineries or parking garages and form work. One year out of 20 I got to work on some track homes.
The reason for going out on my own was so I could feel like a carpenter again.
Now 36 years after I received my first paycheck, I was 14, working as a framing carpenter I'm building theatre sets for a community college and teaching the basics of woodworking to students who in their early 20's never held a hammer.
Definition of a carpenter.... Who knows what it will be tomorrow.
Do any of you feel like a dinosaur or DoDo bird?
Carpentry, it's a dying craft. When your saddled up with that young kid who's tools are less than worthy, try befriending him/her. Revitalize the trade and share your knowledge and experience.
I agree, Most of these questions are either subjective or set to outdated standards that are practically non-applicable now..
Excellence is its own reward!
As I said before I'm a dinosaur. I measure my craft by an old standard, but I'm not interested in belittling change. I love carpentry, pure simple carpentry, but seldom get to enjoy it. I've relegated my opportunity to enjoy it by watching This Old House New Yankee or Hometime.
I'm leaving the college to go back to my tool bag and have mixed emotions. I am leaving because my new boss feels I should never have been hired because I don't have a bachelor degree in theatre. This despite getting an Excellence in Scenic Design two years in a row during our collegiate competitions. He is young and frankly I don't care to argue with the little snot. It surprised me three years ago when others were excited to offer me the position as technical supervisor.
I'm excited to be getting back to something real, something that can only pay better. It's just that, most contractors are so busy closing the next job that they don't allow you the time on the current one, to stop and smell the sawdust. I intend to take a little more time to enjoy being an old carpenter. I hope someone can afford me.
What measures a carpenter? I used to care what someone else thought and wondered if I measured up. For those of you that ponder this question, well maybe your not one yet but you'll get there eventually.
It's time for this old master carpenter to put his shingle back out.
This strings question...Who decides you're a carpenter? If my old man were alive he'd say, "You do, now get off you as* and get back to work."
Edited 11/17/2003 12:26:58 AM ET by JAGWAH
Back to the question....in Canada, three ways to become a carpenter (or cabinetmaker, whcihc is NOT a carpenter IMO).
#1 Buy a hammer, get a job, call yourself a carpenter or cabinetmaker. They are not regulated trades here, unlike plumbing and electrical, so anyone that wants to can call themselves one.
#2 Apprentice. We still have this system, although different provinces run things differently (these systems are run by the province, usually dept. of ed.....unions sometimes have an alternate system, but the provincial ones are more usual). Involves a combination of in-school theory modules (usually doen through the community colleges), and on the job training. For carpentry and cabinetmaking both, usually 8000 hours combined school and on the job, then you are eligible to write your journeymans exam. If you pass (70% min.), you get a provincial certification, and in many trades, an Interprovincial Red Seal is attached....this means you are certified across the country, and it means your trade has a consistent body of knowledge that is taught everywhere. A BC contractor hiring a Red Seal Nova Scotian knows that they have done essentially the same training, and been tested on it at the same level, as a British Columbian journeyman.
#3 Go to community college, get a ceritifcate (usually one year), or more and more places are moving to a two-year diploma, with work experience periods. Then you graduate, and make up the rest of the 8000 hour requirement (you get credited for the school time), then you're eligible to write for your ticket. Either way gets you the journeyman certification.
No Master designation in Canada; used to be in cabinetmaking, and one cabinetmaking org I belong to wants to get it reinstated, with strict qualification requirements.
System isn't perfect, but it works. Most of the guys I work with, both here in the college and out in industry, are very proud of their journeyperson status. I'm working to get cabinetmaking made an apprenticeable trade in Nova Scotia (you can currently certify, after proving you have the hours and if you pass the exam, but you can't do the apprenticehip).
My degree is filed away somewhere; my two journeyman certificates, one with a Red Seal, hang on my wall.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
7-11 is where you head for coffee to get the brain functioning enough to answer the rest of your questions!
optinum stair ratio or customer calling hours(am to pm)
A lot of it depends on what you mean by "accepted as a capenter". I was stationed in Greece for four years and I had the chance to travel throughout the Med and some of the southern European countrys. When it comes to being a carpenter, if you can hold the hammer and drive a nail, voila, you are a carpenter (believe me you will see some amazingly bad carpentry). This does not mean that you are a furniture maker or a finish carpenter, two areas of the trade which were very regimented in the old school apprentice style training. You could be a general construction carpenter, what we would consider a framer/laborer.
It was my good fortune to spend four years working with three of the finest finish carpenters I have ever known, one of them named Jimmy was probably around three maybe even four hundred years old, and has forgotten more about carpentry than I will ever know. Don't give up on the traditional route, if you worked here you have a set of skills which will be recognized, you should be able to show someobody that you aren't a total novice and be accepted at a higher level, much like you would experience here going to a union after working in the field.
"I know of no more encouraging fact than the unquestionable ability of man to elevate his life by a conscious endeavor."
Henry David Thoureau